Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumPalestinians pelt Jerusalem kindergarten with rocks
A day after deadly car attack the capitals light rail also targeted, with no end in sight for violence; police vow zero tolerance
Less than a day after an attack on a light rail station in Jerusalem in which a three-month-old baby was killed, tensions flared in the capital.
Early Thursday morning, a Jewish kindergarten in East Jerusalem was pelted with rocks. No casualties were reported in the incident, which took place in the Maale Hazeitim neighborhood on the Mount of Olives, near Ras el-Amud. Police were searching for the perpetrators, who fled the scene.
Hours after Wednesdays attack, which saw a Hamas supporter from East Jerusalem ram his car into a busy station, attacks on the light rail continued, with Arab residents of the city hurling rocks and damaging two train cars in Shuafat.
more...
http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-pelt-jerusalem-kindergarten-with-rocks/#ixzz3GxXHfNGO
Israeli
(4,139 posts)Its not happening in a vacuum .....
Jerusalem, the capital of apartheid, awaits the uprising
Mass arrests, violent settlers, expulsion, and dispossession: With that as the lot of Jerusalem's Palestinians, no one should have been surprised with Wednesday's terror attack.
By Gideon Levy
The terror attack in Jerusalem on Wednesday night should not have surprised anyone. After all, two nations live in the Pretoria of the State of Israel. Unlike the other occupied areas, there is supposed to be a certain equality between the two peoples: blue ID cards available for everybody, freedom of movement, property tax payable to the municipality, national insurance Israelis all. But Jerusalem is engulfed by lies. It has become the Israeli capital of apartheid.
With the exception of Hebron, no place has such a blatant and brazen separation regime. And now the Israeli boot is coming down even harder in the capital, so the resistance in the ghetto-in-the-making is intensifying: battered and oppressed, neglected and poor, filled with feelings of hatred and an appetite for revenge.
The uprising is on the way. When the next wave of terror emerges from the alleys of East Jerusalem, Israelis will pretend to be astonished and furious. But the truth must be told: Despite Wednesday's shocking incident, the Palestinians are turning out to be one of the most tolerant nations in history. Mass arrests, violent settlers, deprivation, expulsion, neglect, dispossession and they remain silent, except for the recent protest of the stones.
There is no self-deception from which the city doesnt suffer. The capital is a capital only in its own eyes; the united city is one of the most divided in the universe. The alleged equality is a joke and justice is trampled on. Free access to the holy sites is for Jews only (and yes, for elderly Muslims). And the right of return is reserved for Jews.
A Palestinian resident of Jerusalem is now in far greater danger of being lynched than a Jew in Paris. But here theres nobody to raise hell. Unlike the Parisian Jew, the Palestinian can be expelled from Jerusalem. He can also be arrested with terrifying ease. After 16-year-old Mohammed Abu Khdeir was burned to death, sparking a wave of protest, Israel arrested 760 Palestinians in the city, 260 of them children.
As always, the answer to every problem is a heavier hand. The prime minister has already ordered security forces to be bolstered, using the only language the people in his government know. And when the resistance, naturally, becomes more violent, they throw up their hands and say: Look how theyre destroying the light rail system that we built for them.
Jerusalem could have been different. Had Israel exercised justice and equality there, it could have become a model city; the people who annexed it should have strived for that. In the worst days of the intifada, relatively little terror originated in the city, even though its residents could travel freely.
The Palestinians are the same Palestinians, but the closure, the curfew and the siege are different. The result is that there was less terror in Jerusalem, disproving the theory that a siege prevents terror. Why? Because many residents of the capital actually long to become Israelis, but Israel is preventing them from doing so. United, united but without Arabs.
The mass arrests in Jerusalem that aroused no interest in Israel, the settlers invasion of Arab neighborhoods with the support of the government and courts, the criminal neglect for which the city is responsible all this will have a price.
How long will they see their children afraid to leave their homes for fear of being attacked by hooligans in the street? How long will they see their children arrested for every flying stone? How long will they watch the neglect in their neighborhoods?
How long will they consent to their tacit expulsion from the city? Between 1967 and 2013, Israel revoked the residency status of 14,309 Palestinians in Jerusalem, with strange claims that dont apply to any of its Jewish residents. Isnt that apartheid?
And then terror will erupt. In response, drones will ply the skies of the Shoafat refugee camp, there will be killings in the streets of Azariyeh and targeted assassinations in Beit Hanina, and another separation barrier will be built between the two parts of the city, just to be on the safe side. With a nationalist mayor, a violent police force and a government headed by Benjamin Netanyahu, nothing is more certain.
Source: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.622206
safeinOhio
(32,641 posts)I learned about the racism there about 20 years ago when I worked with a Palestinian Christian. Our fundamentalist Christians, that feel persecuted could learn a lot from him.
King_David
(14,851 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Absolutely shameful.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)Absolutely shameful.....
Israeli court denies parole to Jewish extremist who tried to bomb Muslim school
A member of a Jewish underground who was convicted of trying to blow up a Muslim girls' school in Jerusalem in 2002 will not be released from prison early, after a court overruled a decision by the prison parole board. The board had approved the early release of Ofer Gamliel, who has served 10 years of a 15-year-sentence for attempted murder in the plot to bomb the East Jerusalem school.
The Shin Bet security service objected to his early release, maintaining that Gamliel, a member of the Bat Ayin underground, had not demonstrated true remorse for his actions and that keeping him in prison would serve as a deterrent to others a position accepted by Court Justice Avraham Tal.
The Israel Prison Service had planned on releasing Gamliel conditionally, with the stipulation that he report to a police station twice a month, be banned from leaving the country until May 2017 and that he take part in a rehabilitation program.
Case officers reported that Gamliel had been behaving positively in prison, serving as a mentor to another prisoner who is under his watch, and participating in sessions with a social worker. However, other reports claimed that Gamliel had serious disciplinary problems and only accepted partial responsibility for his actions.
In objecting to his release, the Shin Bet security service also argued that Gamliel had not taken full responsibility for his actionsandthat the committee had ignored the ideological background of his offense and his negative behavior in prison.The Shin Bet also asserted that Gamliel's case should serve as a deterrent to others and that his early release would damage the publics confidence in the justice system.
Gamliels attorney countered that he was being discriminated against, since his accomplice Yarden Morag was released early, in November 2009. (Another accompolice, Shlomo Dvir, is still in prison while his request for early release is being considered.) Gamliels lawyer also raised the case of Tali Fahima, a Jewish pro-Palestinian activist who was convicted of contacting Palestinian terrorists. She was released early even though she showed no remorse for her actions. In her case, no argument was made concerning the loss of public confidence in the justice system, he argued.
Justice Avraham Tal said that while the court does not usually involve itself in the decisions of the parole board, the basic principle is that the prisoner serve out his full term, and that it is not preordained that he enjoy early release. The onus is on him to convince the board that he is worthy of this, and that this will not endanger the public." The court sided with the state in ruling that the proposal for conditional release did not appear to negate the public risk of releasing Gamliel.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-court-denies-parole-to-jewish-extremist-who-tried-to-bomb-muslim-school.premium-1.514596
There was OP about it at the time , absolutely shameful.
One shameful event doesn't excuse another shameful event by disgusting degenerates in both events.
Now this OP is about hateful violent disgusting people attempting murder on kindergarten children .
Any comment on this?
Israeli
(4,139 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)How about pelting a kindergarten with stones?
shira
(30,109 posts).....without deflecting, excusing it, or making some false moral equivalency.
The true face of Anti-zionism & BDS. This is the Palestinian cause, 2014, and it's utterly repulsive.
Only the willfully blind would disagree.
Israeli
(4,139 posts)A must read for you .....
At this rate, every Tom, Dick and Harriet will soon be an anti-Semite
Defining critics as anti-Semites gives the Israeli right wing a blank check to defy the world, which hates us anyway.
By Chemi Shalev
@ http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/.premium-1.622603
I would post it all but I dont want to give KD any excuse
shira
(30,109 posts)I can't imagine the writer getting away with the same kind of article aimed at any other ethnic or racial group.
FAIL.
I think he nails it shira .....
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 26, 2014, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)
It's absurd.
There are Zionists here at DU who believe the Gaza war was wrong and no one sane calls them antisemitic. They don't compare Israel to the Nazis and don't claim genocide, etc. That's one reason they're taken more seriously than asshole jew-baiters.
King_David
(14,851 posts)And here in this group everyone can read it for free.
shira
(30,109 posts)No more than there's an excuse for any terror attack anywhere on innocents.
So why are you trying to explain or excuse it?
Israeli
(4,139 posts)" why " ?
......Judea and Samaria .....thats why .
The dream of ' Greater Israel ' .....thats why .
No more than there's an excuse for any terror attack anywhere on innocents.
Baruch Goldstein ?
Ami Popper?
The Jewish Underground ?
Eden Natan-Zada ?
Yaakov Teitel ?
Yona Avrushm ? ...........( ref: http://peacenow.org.il/eng/content/emil-grunzweig )
++ others .
and finally Yigal Amir .....not that Rabin was innocent ...his assassination was just the confirmation of how far our religious Right wing would go to keep the Wild West Bank to themselves .
So why are you trying to explain or excuse it?
shira
(30,109 posts)Hamas and the PA make it clear all Israel is occupied territory and that Jews do not have any right to be there.
I'm not trying to explain or excuse anyone's actions. You are...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)sources.
Reception
In an article for CounterPunch, Samah Sabawi described PMW as a right-wing propaganda site.[29] According to a 2012 article in Haaretz, Palestinian Media Watch and its founder are associated with Israel's right wing, and the majority of information furnished by PMW relating to Palestinian incitement is of a professional nature.[11] The organization is funded by the Michael Cherney Foundation.[30]
In an opinion piece for The Hill, Hanan Ashrawi of the Palestine Liberation Organization accused Palestinian Media Watch of having close links with the Central Fund of Israel, which she said was involved in funding "some of the most extreme elements in Israel's settler movement." Ashrawi stated also that the PMW definition of incitement included "any action or statement critical of Israeli policy" such as nonviolent actions against Israeli occupation or in support of Palestinian rights.[31]
Australia's former ambassador to Israel Ian Wilcock, in an opinion piece for The Australian, said of Palestinian Media Watch that it "does an outstanding job of bringing attention to what the [Palestinian Authority] and related organisations are saying in Arabic, as opposed to the usually more temperate comments made in English for the world outside the Middle East." As examples Wilcock stated that the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was prominent in the ideology of the Palestinian Authority, that a Palestinian Authority youth magazine had featured a young woman dreaming of explaining to Adolf Hitler why she killed Jews, and that a Palestinian Authority newspaper had referred to Passover as "the holiday of the apes."[32]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Media_Watch
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)settler outfit, as objective.
shira
(30,109 posts)It has nothing to do with standing by Palwatch.
It has everything to do with accepting the reality of the situation and not supporting genocidal, fascist, warmongering and racist outfits like Hamas and friends.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)regardless of their horrific reputation and clear pro-settler agenda. To deny that while
you rely on them to confirm that Hamas and Abbas see all of Israel as OT is silly on your part.
That was your claim, don't forget.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you think they limit that to the West Bank and Gaza?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)by Palwatch...a settler outfit. Your claim was, Hamas and Abbas see all of Israel as OT and
want the Jews out.
Complete bullshit.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I am asking a question based on what you know about the group. Have you heard them articulate their views on this question?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Yes I have and so have you, how many times does it have to be re-posted for you?
You don't believe Hamas, fine with me, but they have been on the record accepting
1967 lines.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Would you not agree that the Hamas leadership has not been entirely consistent on that matter?
Hamas will never recognize Israel, PM Haniyeh says to 30,000 Iranians
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/11/193908.html
Hamas leader says group will never recognize Israel
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/14/us-palestinians-hamas-idUSTRE6BD2XW20101214
Meshaal gave a fiery speech to a huge number of ralliers who braved the rain to attend.
We will never recognize Israels occupation of legitimate Palestinian lands, and we will not recognize Israel, the Hamas leader told the cheering crowd.
Palestine is our land from the Mediterranean Sea to the River Jordan, and we will never give away an inch of it, he added.
http://rt.com/news/hamas-celebrations-gaza-meshaal-585/
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)neither has Likud amended their charter. You can believe Hamas or not, and take into
account which group has the political and military power. Which group was on its
last legs before Operation Protective Edge, and who advanced themselves as a result
of Likuds decisions to take the opportunity after 3 teenagers were murdered to
assault Gaza as they did.
The end to this conflict has always been elusive for Israel because they have no
intentions of ceding any land, ever.
Hamas is on the record with the 1967 lines as I said earlier, and Likud, well, they're still Likud.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I am pretty sure they have made it clear that they view that land to be just as much Occupied Palestine as they do the West Bank and Gaza. I know they have said they would accept a peace agreement along those lines, which is what I think you mean by "Hamas in on the record with the 1967 lines" but I do not believe they have ever said that they do not view that land as being Occupied Palestine.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)they'll accept the 1967 lines, the response from Bibi: Jerusalem will be undivided and
we can't be secure without the WB.
Again, who carries the most power here and who does not give an inch is very clearly, Likud.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This is the particular comment that I am talking about. I think there is evidence to support that at least as far as Hamas is concerned, they do consider all of Israel to be occupied territory. Their charter does indicate as much as do their statements on the matter. Even if they would accept an agreement along the 1967 lines, that does not mean they would then no longer view Israel as occupied territory.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)on the record for, following their unamended charter to the letter.
shira's statements were intended to leave the impression that it is the Palestinians
who are the main problem, and what I took issue with..it's deceptive to present
Hamas and Abbas as the same and to also eliminate what Hamas has stated, more
than once.
How she framed it amounts to utter bullshit.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...of bullshit.
Of course you think Hamas is less radical and extreme than Likud...
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Hamas is less radical than Likud, less political power, less military power...no contest with Likud.
Their terror activities were documented beginning with their creator of Likud, Begin.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...when you repeatedly demonstrate you have no grasp of the reality of the situation.
I suppose the only thing to rationally discuss is whether or not you really believe half the shit you spew here.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)have no concern about your opinion of me, shira.
Carry on.
shira
(30,109 posts)Abbas is proud of him, however.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)I suppose that's proof of Israel's Nazi genocidal intent in Lebanon from 2006.
And Hamas is less radical than Likud.
Jefferson23 bizzaro world. Gotta love it.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)events and activities of Likud from there inception support that position.
...it's not about Judea and Samaria......
Its about the occupation of the Wild West Bank .....
Lets play .....
http://www.digitalartlab.org.il/ExhibitionPage.asp?id=399&path=level_2
In the instructions for the game Wild West Bank the player is offered to end the Occupation: "This is your opportunity to evacuate the settlements and get Israel out of the Occupied Territories." The game is an invitation for an event against the Occupation held at the square in front of the Tel Aviv Museum of Art on June 17, 2005. In order to drive Israel out of the Occupied Territories one must remove the caravans by a single click, and the houses by a double-click; in order to remove the settlements, one must drag the soldiers back behind the Green Line, an act which is followed by a cry of joy coming from their mouths.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Hamas' response to complete Israeli withdrawal of all settlements and settlers back in 2005 was to step up attacks against the Jews. Had they gone the peace route instead, there's no question Israel would have been under enormous pressure to do the same and get out of the West Bank just as they did Gaza.
Hamas should've tried that, right?
Israeli
(4,139 posts)Blue vs. Orange......the war of the ribbons ....or the color war .
Settlers calling our kids Nazis and Kapos shira ....every holocaust image you could drag up you used .
Then came Amona.
What goes around comes around ....from the Altalena to Amona.
shira
(30,109 posts)If Hamas had played nice and peaceful along with the PA after the 2005 withdrawal, Israel would have certainly withdrawn from much of the W.Bank due to enormous world pressure.
You disagree?
Israeli
(4,139 posts)....it was an internal ' thing '......like the Altalena is an internal ' thing '.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Explain and excuse have different meanings, did you know?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Stoning kindergarten or Women or Gays is pure cowardice and such people don't belong and shouldn't be accepted into any civil circle.
shira
(30,109 posts)....allied with Hitler and wanted Jews dead well before the establishment of Israel in 1948?
Want to "explain" that one away?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and Mufti al-Husseini was Palestine's first leader, I thought that you knew Palestine was under British rule at the time right
shira
(30,109 posts)....once you learn something about his role WRT Jews in pre-1948 Palestine.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Your favorite source Wikipedia should be sufficient.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)thanks
Response to shira (Reply #43)
Scootaloo This message was self-deleted by its author.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)1) The Mufti was never "Palestine's first leader." The Mufti of Jerusalem is, and always has been, a primarily ceremonial title. The British decided to treat the position as some sort of central authority, mostly for their own convenience. Sort of like how they would decide who was 'in charge' in all their other colonies.
2) The position of Mufti is an elected position, decided by the scholars and religious leaders of Jerusalem. Hajj Amin al-Husseini... was never elected. In fact, he lost, when he stood for the election. He lost badly. he came in fifth out of five men, in fact. If this were compared to the US presidential election, then al-Husseini came in behind "Donald Duck" and "Myself, lol."
3) A big, big reason for him coming in dead last was because, as I'm sure you know, amin al-Husseini was an extremly antisemitic asshole. he was apparently instrumental in the Nabi Musa riots of 1920. he was seen by his peers and co-religionists as an extremist whose elevation to Mufti would have only made problems worse. it certainly didn't help that he was exiled in Syri pending a 10-year imprisonment sentence decided in absentia.
4) But you know, pffft, elections, who needs 'em right? Deciding that putting a member of the al-Husayni clan into the position would make things smooth for the British, the High Commissioner completely pardoned al-Husseini, and had him installed as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
5) Now unfortunately for the British commissioner, despite the grandiose sound of the title, "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" basically just meant this guy was a caretaker of Jerusalem's Muslim holy sites. It never conferred any political power to the mufti, beyond what any given people decided to acknowledge in his favor; basically a symbolic figurehead. So, since this wasn't useful, the Comissioner created the "Supreme Muslim Council of Palestine." And, weirdly, he made al-Husseini president of said newly-minted council.
6) The British High commissioner in Palestine at the time, in case you didn't know, was one Herbert Samuel. an ardently Zionist British Jew. One may wonder if he was just very confused. One may also wonder the same of Chaim Weizmann and Richard Meinertzhagen, who had tried to get al-Husseini off the hook by trying to blame Allenby's chief of Staff for the speeches al-Hussieni gave that incited those riots. One may also wonder why zo many zionists seem to be walking in tandem with antisemites so often - or in the case of meinertzhagen, being both at the same time.
7) Anyway. Haj Amin al-Husseini, yes. as Mufti of Jerusalem, and as President of the Supreme Muslim Council of Palestine, he... behaved pretty much like anyone could have expected him to behave. he was an integral figure in the 1929 riots (Samuel, again, tried to erase any blame from "his man" . He worked against the actual Palestinian nationalist movement, since these groups pretty uniformly despised the political hegemony the commissioner granted al-Husseini. he invented the World Islamic congress, and made himself president of it (because why not, I guess) and began recruiting young men for a paramilitary movement against the british, in a sort of unrealized tandem with haganah doing the same thing among young Jewish men. Basically, batshit motherfucker who wanted to be King Amin I of Palestine, right?
8) Which brings us to the 1936 Arab revolt... which Husseini was a key part of. Remember what i just said about recruiting people to act agaisnt the british? well, that's exactly what happened, and Husseini's peopel attacked british officials, Zionists, civilians, the bunch, basically. The comissioner - Arthur Grenfell Wauchope - was apparently not as... confused as his predecessor, and set out an arrest warrant for al-Husseini. having been tipped off, Husseini fled Palestine. His power base, which was entirely centered around his person, basically crumbled to nothing. he lost any resemblance of political power, instead becoming an exile wandering the earth. we'll get back to that.
so. By August 1937, haj Amin al-Husseini was Grand mufti of nothing, was the president of nothing, held leadership over no one and had exactly no political resources. So, in case you're bad at dates, two years prior to World War Two, Amin al-Husseini was a pauper on the run from the British, hopping safehouses in Iraq, Iran, and Russia, eventually managing to get into Germany in 1941. how exactly he managed his is still a mystery, i like to imagine he rode in on a sweeping hurricne of his own hot air, like some sort of demented Mary Poppins.
Now, what does this mean for your argument? well, it means that what this asshole was up to in World War 2 is entirely irrelevant to anything involving Palestine. because you see, he had absolutely nothing going on in Palestine. Palestine remained a British holding. Palestinian grains fed allied forces. Palestinian men - Jewish and Arab - fought in Greece, Italy, and North Africa (though most simply held guard duty in Egypt.) Amin, meanwhile, was a lonely little goblin tapped in berlin.
So what did he do during World War 2? well, he of course urged Hitler to turn his forces towards Palestine to "liberate Palestine from the Jews" - Hitler, not being completely insane, decided that he'd better finish getting his ass kicked by hte Russians before open a - what, fifth, at that point? - front in the war. So instead Hitler patted Amin on the ass, told him to eat lots of broccoli, and sent him to recruit Muslims in southeastern Europe. Which he did... and they turned out to be the most mutinous units in the Wehrmacht, and some of the most prone to "enemy sympathy" towards the Jews and Roma. meanwhile their Serbian neighbors, well, those guys were all gung-ho about the Final solution... Bosniaks, Albanians, and Macedonians... not so much apparently. So, big failure there, which is kind of a defining theme of this guy's life and career.
And what impact did that have on Palestine? Diddle-squat. What meaning does it bear towards the modern issues of palestine? Same thing, diddle-squat.
Amin al-Husseini was a crazy man, appointed by a British Zionist high commissioner in order to try to wring some sort of political goal out of him. He turned out to be too crazy, got chased out, and ended up trapped in Berlin being more useless than Eva Braun's nether regions. Cliff notes version, sure, but... that's pretty much it. He was a nutbar who achieved nothing except when it was handed to him, and fauiled even that much.
Your attempts to cast Palestine in his image is historically ignorant and obviously deceitful.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There likely would not have been a 1948 war if Hussam ad-Din Jarallah had been allowed to stand as Grand Mufti in the 1930s.
He was much more of an Abbas than a Haniyeh (like Husseini) - supporting compromise and political solutions rather than violent ones.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But, problem remains - the High comissioner wanted Amin al-Husseini there, instead
shira
(30,109 posts)We should also mention the leadership unique in the Palestinian people before him, the Grand Mufti of Palestine Haj Muhammad Amin al-Husseini, who sponsored the struggle from the beginning, and patronized the struggle and the displacement for the cause and died a stranger from home.
But what does Abbas know?
I know you don't think much about Zionist historians with more credentials in their pinky toe than your propaganda sources, but here's an article about Al-Husseini and his role in the Holocaust...
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/04/27/the-palestinians-and-the-holocaust/
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Don't garble about propaganda, then give me a piece from algemeiner promoting a book by Barry Rubin. Especially when my information and yours have no disagreement on the facts.
Yup, Amin al-Husseini stuck his head up the Fuhrer's ass starting in 1941, toured death camps, was used to recruit Muslims to the wehrmacht. I already said this stuff.
But.
four years before that he had been exiled from Palestine, his power base there erased, his titles - granted and self-given - erased. Palestine was Allied territory during the war, and served allied interests.
Your attempt is to cast all Palestinian as Nazis because of an exiled Palestinian hanging around in Berlin is deceitful and historically ignorant.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)snip* But the Rubin-Schwanitz thesis in Nazis, Islamists and the Making of the Modern Middle East goes much, much further. After some extraordinary research and a lot of new archive material they formulate the theory that Haj Amin was the architect of the Holocaust and that he had so much power over Hitler and his cronies that he was, in effect, the perpetrator of the mass murder of the Jews of Europe. Much of the material to support this comes from Fritz Grobba (former German envoy to Kabul, Baghdad and Riyadh, and Muslim-Arab affairs officer in the Nazi foreign ministry) highly dubious evidence, in the words of Gilbert Achcar, whose own research fills a volume of tremendous historical importance (The Arabs and the Holocaust) and from the observation that Haj Amin and his colleagues were the only Nazi allies (apart from fascist movements) who gave their support to the genocide plan.
For example, when a proposal that Jews were to be released from Nazi captivity 10,000 children via Romania to Palestine in 1942 in return for the Allied release of German civilians, Adolf Eichmann noted that Haj Amin had heard of the plan and protested to Himmler, who, according to the book, had then reversed his decision and sent them (the children) back to almost certain death. The authors repeat the story that Haj Amin had visited Auschwitz extermination camp, drawing upon a sinister document recording the Palestinian Grand Muftis 1943 visit to Himmler at the Ukrainian village of Zhitomir (near Kiev), which is geographically close to the Polish town of Oswiencim (Auschwitz). Rubin and Schwanitz say that it is possible Haj Amin visited the death camp on his way to Zhitomir, and that Treblinka and Majdanek camps were also conveniently located for a possible visit along the route.
A highly incriminating story, if true but possible is hardly the stuff of history. The authors record some fatuous conversations between the Palestinian and Nazi officers, the former favourably comparing Islam to Nazism and the latter exclaiming their admiration for the religion, even though both sides knew this was nonsense. Having established that these two views had little in common, Rubin and Schwanitz then make an astonishing leap of faith by recording Hitlers suicide then adding that the Third Reichs Arab and Islamist allies were just getting started in conducting what would become the longest war of all.
This lies at the heart of the whole Islamofascist narrative (see Christopher Hitchens, Norman Podhoretz and George W. Bush) in which Nazism still exists in Arab anti-Semitism, and in which the Mufti was a pioneer in race murder this from Sean McMeekin in his The Berlin-Baghdad Express for inciting Arab mobs to lynch Jews in Jerusalem in the 1920s. McKeekin quoted Hitler as telling Haj Amin that he would annihilate the Jews living under British protection in Arab lands, a sentiment which the Palestinian heard with an air of gratification. The source, again, is Grobba. And the problem is obvious. If we trust this account, do we therefore trust the Nazi version of history? If they lied so much, how come the Nazis were scrupulously honest in recording Haj Amins actions and words? And how come, by the way, do the authors of Nazis, Islamists etc not talk about the historically established links between Nazism and Zionism?
The Grand Mufti, lets face it, was a pretty horrible man, immoral and racist, but he was a puny figure in the history of Nazisms epic evil. Dumping the Holocaust on this wretched figure is ultimately an insult to history as well as to the six million victims of an evil regime. It also provides another means of denigrating the entire Palestinian people whose lands are still being gobbled up by the Israeli government when the real criminals were neither Muslim nor Arab but Europeans, that cultured, largely Christian race who have inflicted more suffering on the people of this world than any other in recent history.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/dumping-blame-for-the-holocaust-on-the-grand-mufti-is-an-insult-to-its-six-million-victims-9587755.html
shira
(30,109 posts)No one claims that, not Rubin, not Schwanitz, nor Marquardt-Bigman.
But I understand this is the kind of pseudo- crank scholarship you rely on.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Where's the proof?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)with you saying he is wrong..period.
You crack me up.
shira
(30,109 posts)Logical fallacy.
Fisk claimed Israel dropped Uranium bombs into Lebanon too. I have to disprove that one too?
You're funny.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)How fucking disingenuous, you post from Rubin and now you're trying
to clean it up for him.
shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...Israel used uranium bombs in Lebanon, among other doozies.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)You are really upset, I see.
Good luck to you, Barry Rubin and all his truthiness.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)with a link.
shira
(30,109 posts)I'm still waiting for evidence of Fisk's bullshit against Rubin.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Did Israel use a secret new uranium-based weapon in southern Lebanon this summer in the 34-day assault that cost more than 1,300 Lebanese lives, most of them civilians?
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-mystery-of-israels-secret-uranium-bomb-421960.html
The Daily Star: Feb. 27, 2007 | 12:00 AM
Panel finds 'no evidence' Israel used depleted uranium in 2006 war
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2007/Feb-27/45041-panel-finds-no-evidence-israel-used-depleted-uranium-in-2006-war.ashx#axzz1U32kqu
Your point is what? That Fisk asked a question he should not ask?
That Fisk needs a direct quote to call out Rubin on his nonsensical theory on the relevance
of the Palestinians and the Holocaust? No, he doesn't, Rubin makes his intentions clear, enough.
Your desperation was to link to Rubin in the first place, if you imagine reputable historians
agree with Rubin, you're more lost than I previously thought. All you're trying to do
is equate the Holocaust with a reason for Israel to keep land that belongs to the Palestinians
and deprive them of a viable state...that's Rubin and is cohorts end goal.
shira
(30,109 posts)...and you'd still call that responsible journalism.
Did the Juice poison the Lebanese water supply with AIDS? Did the Jooooz kill Nelson Mandela? What did the Juice do today? What can we blame them for tomorrow?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)GESICC
(31 posts)How about since Palestinians are unlikely to be allowed NEAR a Israeli school, it was a bunch of pranksters?
Ruin the drama for you?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Jerusalem alone is home to many many Israeli schools that Palestinians attend.
GESICC
(31 posts)but rocks are hardly more than a prank. Got you there.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)sort of like saying the US allows 44 million Africans to live here and go to it's schools
I am stunned by your comment. You really think that is a legitimate comparison?
Most Palestinian citizens of Israel consider themselves to be Palestinians.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and BTW haven't you ever heard the term African-American?