Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumISIS has nothing to do with Israel
Tzipi Livni is a realistic politician. She represents the right and appropriate combination of a national and Zionist approach with an approach pursuing a peace agreement. She has been trying with all her might to prevent the bi-national state disaster. She has no illusions and she is not one of those ignorant supporters of a solution which includes a general clearance sale.
This calls for a full disclosure: She offered me a secure place on her party's Knesset list. I turned down the offer, but not because I oppose her way.
Last Friday, in an interview to Nahum Barnea, she said things which should be heard. But then came the surprise: "Anyone who claims that the ISIS problem can be solved without a real effort to resolve the Palestinian problem is throwing sand in your eyes." I read it and couldn't believe my eyes. Is this the politician I regard so much? John Kerry said something of the kind, and tried to explain that it wasn't he who said it, but that it was what Arab states' leaders had told him. Now it turns out that Livni herself is uttering this nonsense. What the hell is wrong with her?
That's sad, because all the important and true and justified things Livni has to say are seen in a completely different manner after this statement. Does she really believe that there is a link between the Islamic State's growth, or the Islamic State's success, or the Islamic State's development and the conflict taking place here? Is she serious? Hasn't she heard that branches of the cancerous jihad have been nesting in Somalia, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan and in Nigeria for a long time now? Hasn't she heard about the huge capital which has reached jihad organizations from Saudi Arabia and Qatar? Hasn't she heard about the hundreds of thousands of people, mostly innocent, who have died in the war waged mainly by the United States and Britain in Afghanistan and in Pakistan?
So it's Israel's fault? What else is Israel's fault? Perhaps global warming too?
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4584724,00.html
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)to the right..and I am no fan of Livni, at all.
shira
(30,109 posts)Of course you probably think the vast majority of Democrats are too rightwing for your tastes.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Would you sit that one out?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Sit what one out?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Would you sit out the 2016 presidential election (i.e. not vote) if Hilary Clinton is the Democratic nominee?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Ever had a really nasty splinter Shira? I spent a summer working with my dad, putting up house frames, and i discovered how they work when I got a nice chunk of pine embedded in my palm. see, you've got this big splinter in there, and it gets inflamed. The flesh swells, gets red and hot, and pus starts collecting around the sliver. Now, with some poking and prodding you can get the pus out, and get a little relief of the pressure. But it's going ot come back in a few hours. Again, and again, and again, hypothetically forever. As ypou poke and mash, you are ctually hurting yourself more, putting a big bruise over the inflamed flesh. At some point, it mightget infected and hten you'v got a real problem on your hands (literally, in my case.)
The only solution, obviously, is to remove the sliver.
My dad told me this when it happened, and passed me one of the razors he carried around for his utility knife. I didn't wanna. Cut my palm? I'd rather have the splinter! So I let the splinter sit, and hurt, squishing out the goop (and sometimes little bits of the sliver, which I thought was a triumph!) and the longer I waited, the more it hurt. My dad offered to cut it out for me, and the thought still terrified me. I'd still rather have this piece of white pine digging around in my dermis. So i let it sit more and more. Until finally it was so unbearable that I finally did cut it out. it wasn't happy times; the thing was in there deep, but i got it out. I washed it out - that was a blinding experience of pain - and bandaged my hand. Two days later, you wouldn't know there had been a problem. I spent a week with an infected splinter in my hand, making that hand damn near useless, and in constant agony, becuse I was too chicken to take an action that would hurt for a moment but allow the whole mes to heal.
The occupation is like that sliver, Shira. is it the only problem in the region? of course not. But its constant presence is an inflaming factor. Israel knows this. Israel knows that perpetuating th occupation only makes things worse as time goes on. every day, a little more inflammation, a little more bruising, a little more blood and pus. But like a 14 year old kid, it suffers severe shrinkagew at the thought of actually removing that sliver.
shira
(30,109 posts)....to the '67 lines next week. Like the Terminator, they will never stop in their pursuit of destroying Israel and its Jews. They're nasty bullies who cannot be reasoned with.
Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But then that same kind of argument was made against the peace treaty with Egypt as well. And also against the very concept of two states. and against the treaty with Jordan. And any number of other things.
But the fact is, the occupation is untenable, harmful to everyone and is serving to make a problem worse. Your argument amounts to 14 year old me, thinking that a cut to the top layers of skin might hurt more than the certain 7 days of festering agony.
shira
(30,109 posts)Both Fatah and Hamas are Jihadi organizations.
Besides, a Palestinian state has been offered up many times since 1937. All have been rejected due to one thing: They will not tolerate the existence of the Jewish state.
If an end to occupation and settlements was the problem, the problem would've been solved in 1999-2000.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Which at the time were perceived as a much greater threat than "jihadis." These are points on a continuum of "pro-Israel" voices against peaceful conflict resolutions. And they didn't pan out quite like the doomsayers predicted.
Ending the occupation might not put out all the fires - no one is saying it will, except people who need it as a strawman to continue the occupation. But it will take away some of the fuel for the fire.
And if you want to talk history, maybe start a new thread for it Shira. or read one of the dozens and dozens of old ones where we've gone over this ground before.
shira
(30,109 posts)But Israel has genuine security issues to consider.
For example, Hamas tried to overthrow Fatah in the W.Bank recently. Only Israel prevented that from happening. Think Israelis are stupid for having a problem with Hamas controlling the W.Bank?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Maintaining the occupation in perpetuity doesn't weaken Hamas.
shira
(30,109 posts)....Hamas ruling the W.Bank in such close proximity to major population centers. They won't allow their leader to make such a suicidal move without first making solid security arrangements.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Continuing the occupation doesn't weaken hamas.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)with Israel. Now you're arguing that in fact they are intending to destroy Israel and restore historical Palestine. Which is it?
shira
(30,109 posts)....like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Aqsa Martyrs, and Hezbollah.