106 retired Israeli generals, spy chiefs urge Netanyahu to push for peace

[Jefferson23]

Israel has the strength and means to reach a two-state solution that doesn't entail a security risk, signatories write in a letter sent to the prime minister.

By The Forward and J.J. Goldberg | Nov. 3, 2014 | 3:06 PM

In what appears to be the largest-ever joint protest by senior Israeli security personnel, a group of 106 retired army generals, Mossad directors and national police commissioners have signed a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu urging him to “initiate a diplomatic process” based on a regional framework for peace with the Palestinians.

Several of the signers told Israel’s Mako-Channel 2 News in interviews that Israel had the strength and the means to reach a two-state solution that “doesn’t entail a security risk,” but hadn’t managed to reach an agreement because of “weak leadership.”

“We’re on a steep slope toward an increasingly polarized society and moral decline, due to the need to keep millions of people under occupation on claims that are presented as security-related,” Maj. Gen. (res.) Eyal Ben-Reuven told Mako’s Roni Daniel. “I have no doubt that the prime minister seeks Israel’s welfare, but I think he suffers from some sort of political blindness that drives him to scare himself and us.”

snip* He was referring to the Saudi-backed peace proposal that was adopted unanimously by the Arab League in 2002 (here is the full text) and later endorsed 56-0 by the 57-member Organization of Islamic Cooperation, with Iran abstaining. It has since been repeatedly reaffirmed and its terms softened. As currently framed, it offers full peace, diplomatic recognition and “normal relations” between the Arab states and Israel in return for Israeli withdrawal to borders based on the pre-1967 armistice lines, with negotiated land swaps, and a “just” and mutually “agreed” compromise solution to the Palestinian refugee problem.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.624251

[oberliner]

1. Now you're talking

The Geneva Initiative is the way to go. Let's stop the BDS nonsense and let's keep amplifying these voices for the two-state solution on both sides.

Are you with me?

[Jefferson23]

2. No land swaps that leave the Palestinians without a viable state, that is key or there will be

no peace. Land swaps that leave Israel with all the precious resources would be criminal, fuck that.

[oberliner]

7. Do you think the Geneva Initiative land slaps are acceptable?

Do you feel that they leave Palestinians with a viable state or are they criminal? (or somewhere in between)

If you do not agree with what is outlined there, which are the specific swaps that you oppose?

[Jefferson23]

19. You support an initiative that you don't know the details of? Which land gets swapped

and the Palestinians should see this group of 106 endorsement as a major red flag that something
is very suspicious if they're all gaga for the Arab Initiative..their softened version, that is.
This is what is so ironic about Bibi refusing the Kerry plan due to his wacko constituents and
cabinet.

Israel should get the hell out of the WB, period. That is where they should start..who the
hell starts negotiating anything from the bottom??

I believe I have already made clear, negotiating with Israel is a waste of time, they have the
political and military power...take to the streets and the international courts. It will take courage
to do so, the US and EU will make it difficult. You can't tell people to make this happen, but Abbas
OWES them the truth. If he puts up a charade that he'll use the courts and then backs down,
God help him..how will anyone be able to fix it then?

If you're going to lose anyway, go down fighting for your people. There is no way around a viable
state..you can't pretend one will eventually rise up out of ashes, and Marshal plans and living
under the thumb of another state..that would be a criminal enterprise.

I don't know what he'll do, and I do appreciate the pressure he is under, but they all need
to unify and decide what risks they're willing to take before its too late.

[Mosby]

20. I'm sure the Palestinians will like Jordan.

which is where they will end up after all you hard core "progressives" are done "helping" them.

sleep well.

[Jefferson23]

22. Yea, and the right wing, which is in power and does not want a Palestinian state,

per their charter, will have blood on their hands forever.

[oberliner]

25. Or in perpetual conflict and statelessness

Last edited Tue Nov 4, 2014, 09:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Which appears to be what some of the BDS movementarians seems to be after.

The "movement" provides academics with books to write and gives young people a sense of purpose.

[Jefferson23]

27. Leaving them a non-viable state is criminal, that anyone would write about is what troubles

you..that's an interesting reaction.

BDS has nothing to do with the international courts, btw.

[oberliner]

34. How is the status quo?

Is it preferable to a non-viable state?

[Jefferson23]

36. What's your measure of success for the Palestinians..a semantics win?

A non-viable state is just that, non-viable and all that goes with it.

Not difficult to understand.

[oberliner]

37. A better life for the Palestinian people

And an end to the occupation.

An independent Palestinian state seems better than the lack of one.

[Jefferson23]

38. Better? As I said, a non-viable state would have serious and devastating consequences

and anyone who supports a faux peace deal is either uninformed, indifferent, and or complicit
in the demise of the people of Palestine if the negotiations allow for Israel to keep the arable land.
That is not a future, but it would give the appearance of one.

Crumbs won't build a viable state.

When people express their disapproval of the Palestinians utilizing the courts
to achieve their rights, it tells me they're not serious about a lasting peace
with two viable states as the end result for future generations. The international
courts should not be feared, but embraced.

[oberliner]

39. Here's to a bright future for all people

I hope that whatever efforts you are making towards improving the lives of Palestinians are successful.

[Jefferson23]

40. I'll take that to mean you're still non-supportive of any actions to bring the Palestinian

cause to the international courts.

[Scootaloo]

3. Tell you what oberliner

Let us worry about BDS. You go find an Israeli politican who not only knows what the word "negotiate' means, but is also likely to get elected by the good people of Israel.

We won't wait up, sorry.

[King_David]

5. "We"

The leaders ...


LOL

[oberliner]

8. Check out the Geneva Initiative

Many politicians, Israeli, Palestinians, and otherwise have endorsed it.

[Scootaloo]

18. Israel has officially rejected it out of hand, Oberliner.

Seriously, this point has been brought to you again and again. Israel. Does. Not. Want. It. And to that point, Israel's contest expansion since 2003 has largely made the idea completely moot anyway.

It's dead. Even Israeli has been telling you this. Much as with your deep belief in a Kadima landslide victory, the Geneva Initiative is a nonexistent fantasy that you seem to cling to in order to avoid the modern reality of the situation. A reality where the Geneva Initiative has been killed, gutted, and chopped into cold cuts. By Israel.

[Mosby]

21. The Palestinians rejected the clinton plan and Taba

Please try not to rewrite history, it confuses the young ones.

[Scootaloo]

23. We're talking about the Geneva Initiative, Mosby

Please try to stay on-topic, it makes you look confused when you don't.

[Mosby]

24. it's all the same plan as you should know.

[Scootaloo]

29. No, they're not

[Mosby]

41. close enough

Land swaps, shared J'lem, limited ror, demilitarized palestine, etc.

It's based on the Clinton plan, roadmap, 242.

[Scootaloo]

44. It draws from several sources. But is not the same thing

[Jefferson23]

4. Could Jerusalem's youth revolt turn into an uprising?

RAMALLAH, West Bank — The pace of developments escalated in Jerusalem following the assassination attempt of Rabbi Yehuda Glick and the killing of Moataz Hijazi. Events took a new turn, especially after the Israeli authorities closed Al-Aqsa Mosque for a day for the first time since 1967. It reopened the compound on Oct. 31 to those older than 50 for Friday prayers.

The escalation came hours after Israel tightened its security grip on Jerusalem and adopted a policy of “collective punishment” against the Palestinians in response to clashes that erupted with Israeli police in the city.

The Palestinian Authority (PA) deemed the Israeli decision to close Al-Aqsa compound as a declaration of war, while Israel and the settlers continued to accuse the PA of being behind the events. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had, however, announced in an interview with Israel’s Channel 10, before Glick's shooting, that he was against the outbreak of a Palestinian uprising in Jerusalem.

Since the kidnapping and killing of Mohammed Abu Khdeir on July 2, Jerusalem has been experiencing confrontations on various levels of intensity.

Hanna Omeira, member of the PLO Executive Committee for the city of Jerusalem, told Al-Monitor that the confrontations in Jerusalem broke out as a popular reaction to the collective punishment policy practiced against both the population and the sanctuaries.

Fakhri Abu Diab, member of the Committee for Defense of Silwan, told Al-Monitor that the uprising in Jerusalem is the result of accumulations and behaviors on the part of the occupation’s policy in the city, such as oppression, the absence of a political solution and the expanding settlements.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/10/palestine-youth-israel-police-uprising-jerusalem.html#ixzz3I4QKeOk7

[Israeli]

6. 19 years later, it's time we talk about Netanyahu.......

The man who led the anti-Rabin demonstrations that preceded the assassination was none other than Benjamin Netanyahu. The only goal that should be pursued now is for him to go home.

By Sefi Rachlevsky

Today is November 4. Nineteen years after the fact, the time has come to talk about the elephant in the room. The elephant has been growing every day. By avoiding talking about it, Israel has become a country given to incest.

In 1964, Lyndon Johnson won the American presidential election by the largest margin in the United States since 1824. Charismatic, Johnson was not. His election was a natural reaction to the assassination of President John Kennedy the year before. And in India, after the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi in circumstances similar to the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, Gandhi’s party remained in power for the next 30 years. In pre-state Israel too, David Ben-Gurion took advantage of the incitement by the right-wing Revisionist movement’s Brit Habiryonim group that preceded the assassination of his colleague Haim Arlosoroff in 1933, bringing about a shift that resulted in 40 years of rule by the center-left.

The opposite phenomenon has only occurred once in history. And how different it was. The man who led the anti-Rabin demonstrations that preceded the assassination, protests at which there were slogans including “through blood and fire, we will drive Rabin out,” was none other than Benjamin Netanyahu. He was elected prime minister seven months after Rabin’s murder. He was the same man whom former Shin Bet heads Karmi Gillon and Yuval Diskin were convinced that had it not been for his support for the wave of incitement, it’s possible the assassination never would have occurred. But instead of being shunned by the public, he took up residence in the home and the bed of the murdered Rabin. Even Shakespeare and the Bible don’t provide such tragic endings.

This fact has turned Israeli culture into the equivalent of a family suffering from incest. Such families are marked by a spiral of silence. What is most important is never spoken about. It’s too horrible. And it will do harm to the future of the family and to its livelihood. It’s the head of the household, after all. One cannot say such things about him. It has to be repressed. It can’t be spoken of, as if this most important event never occurred, never happened.

On Friday, 105 former senior officials in the defense establishment took an important step, their own version of breaking the silence. They gave expression to some of the rage of the clear majority of the members of the defense community over Israel’s incomprehensible missed opportunity in our region. But whom did these 105 officials approach, urging that he forge the peace that requires a withdrawal to the 1967 borders and mass evacuation of the settlements? Who? Netanyahu, the person who is burying Israel in the settlements and has been inciting against moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas for years. Under Benjamin Netanyahu’s governments, a culture unique in Israel and the world’s political history has taken control of the center-left. It’s the culture of the mother in the incestuous household. Would reserve officer Motti Ashkenazi, who led a protest movement over the debacle of the 1973 Yom Kippur War, have made a similar approach to Prime Minister Golda Meir, whose government was forced to resign following the war? Clearly not.

Would the Republicans in the United States simply ask President Barack Obama to scrap Obamacare? Would the Democrats have asked President George W. Bush to make peace? All over the world, and once upon a time in Israel too, what the opposition has always asked for is the obvious: that leaders pursue the opposite policy direction and that leaders who differ with this worldview be replaced. That’s the essence of democracy. In its absence, there is dictatorship.

There is a majority in Israel that wants dramatic change. There is a majority that has had enough of Netanyahu’s policies, which have turned Israel into a record holder among industrialized countries when it comes to economic disparities and poverty. It’s a majority that has been fed up with Israel’s subordination to race, to the settlements, to incitement and extremist religiosity. It’s a majority that wants complete change, but this majority can only make this a reality if the entire leadership that is not on the messianic right comes together to bring it about. It is only possible if the collaboration with Netanyahu is brought to an end. Only if the centrality of Rabin’s Labor Party in this dramatic change is understood. Only if an end is put to the silence over incest. Netanyahu is guilty. Nothing should be asked of him. The only goal that should be pursued is for him to go home.

Source : http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.624454

[bemildred]

9. Poor Bibi, he is getting it from all sides now.

He should have payed attention to what happened to the two Ehud's back in 2006. War doesn't fix things, it makes them worse.

[Israeli]

10. The full text of the `100+ General`s Letter` in English..........

100+ Israeli Generals Call for Regional Negotiations

Nov 03, 2014

Below is an unofficial translation of an ad which appeared today and over the weekend in various Israeli newspapers. It is a letter signed by over 100 former Generals in the IDF, police chiefs and Mossad directors, calling on Prime Minister Netanyahu to pursue a regional peace initiative. To read an intriguing interview with the organizers of this effort: click here. For the original Hebrew letter, please see the attchment website.

To: The Prime Minister -- Mr. Binyamin Netanyahu

Re: Political-regional outlook—two states for two peoples

Dear Prime Minister,

....to read in full go to ....

http://www.israelpolicyforum.org/blog/100-israeli-generals-call-regional-negotiations

[bemildred]

11. Right-wing MKs submit bill to apply Israeli law to West Bank settlers

Senior MKs on the Right sought to apply all laws to Israelis living in the West Bank Tuesday, with a new bill that would require the IDF to put out orders identical to laws the Knesset passes.

According to the initiative, within 45 days of a law passing in the Knesset, OC Central Command would order that the law apply to the West Bank.

The cabinet discussed taking similar action with labor laws earlier this week, requiring Israeli businesses in the West Bank to pay Israeli minimum wage and benefits to all employees, Israeli and Palestinian, among other changes.

The new legislation was proposed by Land of Israel Caucus chairpeople Yariv Levin (Likud) and Orit Struck (Bayit Yehudi), and was cosponsored by coalition chairman Ze'ev Elkin (Likud), Bayit Yehudi faction chairwoman Ayelet Shaked, Shas faction chairman Avraham Michaeli, Knesset Law, Constitution and Justice Committee chairman David Rotem (Yisrael Beytenu) and UTJ faction chairman Menachem Eliezer Moses.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Right-wing-MKs-submit-bill-to-apply-Israeli-law-to-West-Bank-settlers-380761

[oberliner]

12. Israeli law doesn't apply to West Bank settlers?

I didn't realize that was the case.

What laws are they governed by?

[bemildred]

13. Two laws for two peoples, I think that's the idea.

It's a comedown from having your own country, but it's the best we can do for the Palestinians.

My own impression is one of lawlessness, so I can't comment on what laws govern whom. Israeli is likely a good source for which rules can still be relied on.

It seems likely, of course, that the bill, like most bills, will not pass.

[oberliner]

14. But these are the settlers, not the Palestinians

Aren't they still Israeli citizens? Why wouldn't they be subject to Israeli law?

[bemildred]

15. I assume the MKs know what they want.

And as I said, I don't think the laws matter much, so I don't study on them.

[oberliner]

16. Here's where I am confused

"requiring Israeli businesses in the West Bank to pay Israeli minimum wage and benefits to all employees"

This seems like a good thing. And pretty progressive/left. Why are RW MK's pushing this?

[bemildred]

17. To bankrupt the Palestinian businessmen? So that the settlers can compete with them. nt

[oberliner]

26. How many WB Palestinians want to work for Israeli settlers?

Is it enough that the Palestinian businessmen would go bankrupt?

[bemildred]

28. Well, it is confusing. I mean it says lower down:

The bill's explanatory portion states that "the law in Judea and Samaria today relies on Ottoman, Jordanian, British and Israeli laws, as well as many [military] orders…this system creates legal confusion and intolerable differentiation between the rights and duties of Israeli citizens who live in different parts of the land."

So these guys want to add to the confusion is the way I read it.

But anyway, it say right there in the story why they say that they want to do it. I don't really feel that it is up to me to try to bolster their argument by explaining further.

You can argue that they want to be nice to the Palestinians by giving them Israeli wages in the West Bank, but I find that amusing.

My view on reading it through however, is that it's what is says in the article, another way to "normalize" the colonies in the OPT.

[Israeli]

31. Go further down bemildred.......

Ref : .....

" Meretz leader Zehava Gal- On slammed the bill, calling it “a malignant combination of annexation and apartheid.

“Applying Israeli law is de facto annexation of the occupied territories, and applying it only to settlers creates racial discrimination,” she said. “This is another step in the bizarre campaign to do everything to discredit Israel in the world and turn it into a leper in the eyes of the international community.” "

For further information read further back in time :

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4525012,00.html

Right-wing MKs introduce legislation to annex West Bank

Bill calls to apply Israeli law to some 90 enclaves, but measures not supported by Netanyahu government; Settler lobby says step needed after talks collapsed.

Struck, a settler herself, told Israel Radio that Israel ought to annex most of the West Bank "but we understand it must be a gradual process" and that, for now, Israel should apply its law to areas where most Israelis in the West Bank live.

Justice Minister Tzipi Livni, Israel's peace negotiator, told a business conference she opposed applying Israeli law to the settlements. "This idea of annexation won't happen for as long as I'm a part of Israel's government," she said.

Ofir Akounis, a deputy cabinet minister, told parliament in a debate held marking the anniversary of the 1967 Yom Kippur War, the government's policy was "not to support at this moment the imposition of (Israeli) sovereignty on Judea and Samaria", using biblical names for the West Bank.

Yariv Levin, coalition whip in Netanyahu's right-wing Likud party, and sponsor of the bill, said on his website he had submitted the legislation because "these regions of settlement are inextricable parts of historic Israel".

Another :

http://www.timesofisrael.com/mks-to-submit-bill-seeking-annexation-of-jewish-settlements/

MKs to submit bill seeking annexation of West Bank settlements

Likud, Jewish Home lawmakers say legislation natural answer to Netanyahu’s talk of ‘unilateral steps’

While it was not clear whether the prime minister meant annexing mainly Jewish-settled territory or withdrawing from mainly Palestinian areas, the Jewish Home chief made plain he was backing annexation: “I hear talk of ‘Israel’s unilateral actions’– I support that,” he wrote.

“We are pushing for applying Israeli law unilaterally over Gush Etzion, Ariel, the Jordan Valley, Ma’ale Adumim, Ofra, Alfe Menashe, the Ben Gurion Airport envelope, Samaria, Judea, and the rest of the Jewish settlement enterprise,” Bennett added. “It is time to do what is best for Israel.”

The idea was slammed Saturday by opposition leader and Labor Party chairman Isaac Herzog and Justice Minister Tzipi Livni.

Calls by right-wing leaders to unilaterally annex parts of the West Bank are both dangerous and delusional, Herzog said Saturday, adding that the only viable solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was to relaunch negotiations and finally determine Israel’s permanent borders.

“The extreme right is exploiting the leadership vacuum that [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu has created, and is now throwing into the ring dangerous ideas about annexing the [West Bank] territories,” Herzog said, according to Israel Radio.

[bemildred]

32. Yeah, I read it all.

One usually does not bother with settler screeds, but in this case ..

The main thing is they have one idea and they never give up on it.

[Israeli]

30. You " didn't realize that was the case. " ?? !!

Really oberliner......so you dont even bother to read your own threads ?? !!!

Ref : http://www.democraticunderground.com/113485803

[bemildred]

33. I usually assume he is trying to be cute when he says things like that.

So I try to respond in the same light-hearted tone.

[Israeli]

35. " cute " .....

I looked it up .......

1) used to describe little kids doing funny things
2) someone that is attractive in an innocent way
3) used to describe someone or an act that's sweet, nice
4) something that you just want to squeeze, or keep
5) used to refer to something little, or related to being young
6) someone doing something silly, special

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cute

I prefer devious ......

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devious

[bemildred]

42. I think I've dated myself again.

Approximately: "clever", with an undertone of not as clever as he thinks, and of "witty", amusing. A Britishism I think, but now some Briton will jump in and correct me.

Archaic and idiomatic both, my apologies.

[Israeli]

45. Dont apologise ....

I get it .....I still prefer " devious " .

[bemildred]

46. Well. This is The Internet. Nobody is really who they seem.

Seriously, I consider "devious" to be about as good as it gets here. I can assure you I don't always lay my cards on the table.

On the other hand, yeah, it gets annoying when it becomes repetitious, people trying to be clever. It forbids any real communication too, when you really are trying to control what someone else thinks or does, so there's that.

[bemildred]

43. Ah, here you go, from "don't be cute":

http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic39182.html