Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumNetanyahu's cabinet approves controversial bill enshrining Israel as 'Jewish nation-state'
Tough bills expected to be combined with PM's softer version later; Netanyahu slams Livni's 'weak' stance on nation-state bill during cabinet debate.By Jonathan Lis | Nov. 23, 2014
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet on Sunday approved a controversial bill to enshrine into Israeli law the status of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people.
The bill that passed was a combination of two, one proposed by MKs Ayelet Shaked and Yariv Levin, and the other by MK Zeev Elkin. The bill, which includes tough wording opposed by both Justice Minister Tzipi Livni and Yesh Atid ministers, will be incorporated into another version Netanyahu plans to present later this week.
The wording of the proposed law will be based on 14 principles that the prime minister formulated to enshrine Israel as the historic homeland of the Jewish people and determine that all of its citizens will have equal individual rights.
The ministers, however, were not asked to vote on Netanyahu's version at Sunday's meeting. Instead, they voted on a deal in which they supported the extreme versions of the bills proposed by Elkin, Levin and Shaked who will withdraw their bills after they are passed in a preliminary reading in the Knesset and back Netanyahu's "softened" version.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.628001
AG: 'Jewish nation-state' bill is attack on Israel's democratic nature
PM Netanyahu to ask cabinet to advance private bills today, but championing his own compromise proposal.
By Jonathan Lis and Barak Ravid 12:12 23.11.14
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.627925
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)The proposal would mean Israel would no longer be defined in its Basic Laws as "Jewish and democratic" but instead as "the national homeland of the Jewish people."
Critics, who include the government's top legal adviser, say the proposed change to the laws that act as Israel's effective constitution could institutionalize discrimination against its 1.7 million Arab citizens.
By giving preeminence to the "Jewish" character of Israel over its democratic nature, the law in its current format is "anti-democratic," they say.
But Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu insisted the law would give equal weight to both characteristics.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=742071
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Moran Azulay
Latest Update: 11.23.14
The government passed on Sunday the contentious Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People, a controversial new bill which is threatening to tear the governing coalition apart, in a 14-7 vote, which saw the coalition split in its support for the legislation
All of Yesh Atid's ministers voted against, as did Justice Minister Tzipi Livni, while all of the Likud, Yisrael Beiteinu and Bayit Yehdui minister voted in favor. Culture Minister Limor Livnat abstained from the vote, and was the sole Likud minister not to follow the party line.
The bill recognizes Israel's Jewish character, institutionalize Jewish law as an inspiration for legislation, and delists Arabic as an official language. The bill is expected to go to the Knesset later this week for its first reading, but its final form is likely to be more moderate. Arab rights groups call it racist, and the attorney general has expressed reservations.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4595070,00.html
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Daniel Friedmann
Published: 11.23.14,
In 1980, then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin led to the enactment of Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel. It was a year after he signed the peace treaty with Egypt, which promised peace on our southern border for decades.
snip*Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel produced the opposite result of course. It was met with a strong international response. Shortly after the law's enactment, the United Nations Security Council adopted a resolution calling for its annulment. Most of the countries which had embassies in Jerusalem moved them to the coastal plain area, and the rest did it later on. Today, there is not a single foreign embassy left in Jerusalem.
The law failed to change anything for Israel either. Jerusalem was and remains our capital. The world's nations refuse to recognize that, and Israeli legislation trying to force them to do so means nothing to them.
Declarative laws don't have the power to solve theoretical or social disputes. At best they are useless, but they do have the power to cause damage.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4594931,00.html
question everything
(47,263 posts)Israel was established as a home for the Jewish people. It was voted in the UN and recognized as such.
There are many counties in the world with similar phrases. And it is true that many Israelis disagree with this. This is what democracy is all about. I am not aware of any Palestinians or other Arabs, for that matter, that disagree with a vote by a democratically elected body and live to tell about it, if at all.
King_David
(14,851 posts)But this legislation is not necessary.
But your right it is democracy that will decide.
sabbat hunter
(6,825 posts)already pretty much enshrined in the Israeli Basic Law via the declaration of independence (which is part of the Basic Law)?
ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/declaration%20of%20establishment%20of%20state%20of%20israel.aspx
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)20% of Israelis are non-Jewish Arabs. 10% of the Knesset is non-Jewish Arab. Exactly one member of the ruling coalition is Arab - Hamad Amar, who is a Druze known for his hostility towards Palestinian Arabs (thus his place in Yisrael Beitinu.) Since 1949, there have only been fifty-seven Arab MK's.
we end up then with a system that is democratic in that votes are happening... but it is far from a representative democracy, as far as Israel's Arabs (and other non-Jewish ethnic minorities) are considered. Especially when we consider that the standing coalition of Israel's government is openly hostile towards Arabs and immigrants, and is the one making the decisions with regards to those people.
It's a situation not unlike the US had between 1872 and 1964, with regards to ethnic minorities and democracy.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What would be the solution the the problem you are identifying?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)One that I suspect does not have a "flawless" answer.
My point is, majorities ruling on minority rights never works out. Blithely saying "Well it's democracy so that makes it okay" as Question Everything sure seems to be doing essentially supports the idea that the majority deserves control over the rights of the minority.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)The Arab population is about 20% of Israel (of Israeli citizens, I mean). Demographically that will swell to about 30% within a generation, maybe more.
In factual terms, that makes it a binational state, its just matter of how hard and how long you wish to deny it.
The Arabs do a lot to sideline themselves. They are mostly fatalistic and fail to vote at all. Those that do vote are naive and throw their lot in with clowns who play to the gallery and do very little else.
To use an American allegory, they keep voting for Malcolm X, not realising that voting for a Martin Luther King is the route to true power. But eventually they'll figure it out.
The Black population of America is only 13% of the total, but white America was still forced to come to terms with them. The Arab population of Israel will be more than double that.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)In June 2013, the Central Bureau of Statistics released a demographic report, projecting that Israel's population would grow to 11.4 million by 2035, with the Jewish population numbering 8.3 million, or 73% of the population, and the Arab population at 2.6 million, or 23%. This includes some 2.3 million Muslims (20% of the population), 185,000 Druze, and 152,000 Christians. The report predicts that the Israeli population growth rate will decline to 1.4% annually, with growth in the Muslim population remaining higher than the Jewish population until 2035, at which point the Jewish population will begin growing the fastest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Population_growth_rate
King_David
(14,851 posts)So much "fact" is posted and accepted here in this group with no challenge.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but as those of us who keep up on this sort of thing know the 'demographic timebomb' that Israel's nonJewish population presents has gone back and forth over the years, sometimes according to political needs
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)That would add about 350,000 to the Arab total. There are about 25,000 Syrian Arabs in the Golan.
Adding those in, together with their likely progeny, gets you to about 27% Arabs in 2035.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Or do you have a link?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I would imagine that at least some of E Jerusalem would end up as part of the new Palestinian state by 2035.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Netanyahu's 'nation-state' bill undermines the notion that Israel's Arab population is entitled to collective rights,
not just individual ones.
By Aeyal Gross 23.11.14
The State of Israel, said the Declaration of Independence, will "be based on the principles of liberty, justice and freedom expressed by the prophets of Israel; it will affirm complete social and political equality for all its citizens, regardless of religion, race, or gender." However, the clauses used as the basis for the Basic Law: Nation State, to be presented Sunday by the prime minister to the...
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.627980
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)By Rogel Alpher | Nov. 23, 2014
In 1978, a 28-year-old named Ben Nitay appeared on the The Advocate, a local television show in Boston, and was presented as an Israeli economic consultant and a graduate of the prestigious university MIT. His wavy black hair was carefully combed with a part on the side, he wore the suit and tie of an economic consultant and in general resembled Richard Dreyfuss in the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
He appeared on the program a format designed to resemble a courtroom to lay out his political theory concerning the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, an issue on which he, it was said, had written widely. Even though he did not serve in any official position, he moved naturally from speaking in the first person to speaking in an official way. In his flowing words in polished English there was no difference between I think and Israel wants. He and Israel were the same thing.
Mr. Nitay, as he was called by the moderators, politely but firmly and without any pretence claimed the Palestinians had no right to self-determination, but they did deserve, very much so, full human and civil rights. Mr. Nitay was very clear on this matter. He said the Palestinians living in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip were entitled as part of an agreement to be citizens with equal rights in Israel. His Palestinian partner in the debate could not believe what he was hearing, and Mr. Nitay raised the conjecture that he had a hearing defect.
snip* Thirty-six years have passed, and Ben Nitay changed his name, changed his profession, changed where he lives, but has not changed his opinion. He still believes the Palestinians do not deserve a state. He still cannot imagine limiting their birthrate or transferring them. He has, in practice, fulfilled the dream of the binational state. And he still does not know how to solve the paradox between the terrifying reality he has created and the idea of a Jewish state he worships. That is the nature of paradoxes. They follow only the rules of logic, not the basic laws of the Jewish state. They do not do what Netanyahu tells them to do even if Sara throws shoes at them.
And now Israel is a state that is not democratic and not Jewish, without equal human rights and civil rights for Arabs. Thats how it is: A paradox that will destroy even the finest theory in the world.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.627904
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Coalition heads postpone Knesset vote, but Netanyahu insists that he is 'determined' to have law passed enshrining Israel as nation-state of Jewish people.
By Barak Ravid and Jonathan Lis | Nov. 24, 2014
The U.S. State Department said Monday evening that it expected Israel to "stick to its democratic principles," in its first response to the Jewish nation-state bill approved by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's cabinet a day earlier.
"Israel is a Jewish and democratic state and all its citizens should enjoy equal rights. We expect Israel to stick to its democratic principles," the State Department said.
The head of Israel's government coalition decided earlier Monday to postpone the Knesset vote on the two controversial draft bills, the next legislative step. Nevertheless, Netanyahu said on Monday that he was "determined" to have it passed, with or without his political partners' agreement.
Faction heads Ofer Shelah (Yesh Atid) and Meir Sheetrit (Hatnuah) requested that Knesset members be allowed to vote as they choose so that their party members don't find themselves in the embarrassing position of being asked to support two extreme laws.
Foreign Minister and head of Yisrael Beiteinu Avigdor Lieberman has also led efforts in the past 24 hours to postpone the Knesset vote, scheduled for Tuesday.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.628327
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I say to the Americans, Israel's affairs will be managed by us, Bennett told Army Radio. We have to deal with what kind of state we want. Ultimately, its our problem. It's an internal problem and I dont think anyone else has the right to get involved.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4596116,00.html
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Wankers.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)What matters is getting other states to recognize Israel. What they recognize it AS doesn't matter.
Netanyahu sounds like a giant child screaming "I want you to say it the way I want you to say it" to the other kids on the playground.
Will he EVER stop with the arrogance and the tantrums?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people, Netanyahu said during a meeting with Czech Prime Minister Bohuslav Sobotka as part of the annual government-to-government meeting between Israeli and Czech cabinet ministers. Israel is an exemplary democratic country that is the way it was and the way it will be. A country that anchors personal equal rights for each of its citizens.
Netanyahu said he did not know a more vibrant, democratic country than Israel in the world, certainly not in our region.
The Prime minister said that while the country's democratic character was ensured, what is being challenged constantly is it being the nation-state of the Jewish people. And for that reason we will anchor in law the national rights of the Jewish people, alongside with assurances of the personal rights of each citizen, he said. That combination is what is important, and what I will promote in the principles of this law. We will continue to do this to make clear the fact that Israel is a Jewish democratic state.
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Recognition-of-Israel-as-nation-state-of-Jews-is-basis-for-future-peace-accord-382789
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)By Yair Ettinger 25.11.14
In 2010, the Knesset discussed a bill to reform the conversion process. The coalition parties all supported it, so it seemed to be on a fast track. Then Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu suddenly shelved it.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.628501
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)By Amos Harel 03:00 26.11.14
The Public Security Ministry and other branches of Israels defense establishment are advancing a bill to outlaw the organization of Palestinian guards stationed on the Temple Mount to block entry by Jews. The guard corps, staffed by Muslim men and women, has often been at the center of clashes with Jewish worshippers during the past year.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.628538
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)whether to laugh or to vomit
.
By Bradley Burston 25.11.14
At this point, it makes no difference if Benjamin Netanyahu's "Jewish nation-state bill" is passed this week, or put off for a week, or never passes at all. The damage has already been done.
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/.premium-1.628471
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)apparently, in the event of a statutory ambiguity, Courts will be required to consult Jewish law in an event to resolve the ambiguity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_proposal:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)Mr Bernstein submits that he should not have to pay the ticket as the no-right turn sign was located more than thirty metres from the intersection. The legislation says that a no-right turn sign should be accordingly located but is silent on how this might affect an infringement notice that is issued to a driver that turns in contravention of such a sign.
As this is a statutory ambiguity, I am required to give authority to ancient Jewish law. The scribes are remarkably silent on the subject of traffic infringements, but Mr Bernstein has helpfully referred me to a song lyric that seems to cast light on the matter: "for everything, turn, turn, turn, there is a season, turn, turn, turn". He assures me that this is based on Jewish law. I find that this was such a season for turn, turn, turn. The application and summons is dismissed.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Israeli
(4,132 posts)By Yitzhak Laor
When the Knesset passed the Basic Law on Israel Lands in 1960, enabling the most comprehensive possible discrimination against the countrys Arab citizens, then-Justice Minister Zerah Warhaftig said, We want it to be clear that the lands of Israel belong to the Jewish people. The Jewish people is a broader concept than the people living in Zion, because the Jewish people are found all over the world. On the other hand, every law we accept is for the good of all the states residents, and all the states residents include people that do not belong to the global Jewish people and the land will not be sold permanently the land of Israel, the lands of Israel, will not be sold permanently There is a very great legal innovation here: We are giving a legal wrapping to the regulations of the Jewish National Fund.
In other words, the JNF the organization that owns lands for Jews only was given a universalist cloak that was empty of any real content. Even before the law, from 1950, the Knesset had passed a series of laws that regulated the land grabs and fixed those areas where Arabs could live.
The distance between Warhaftig and the Kahanist Naftali Bennett, the leader of the same party, demonstrates not only how extreme the National Religious Party [now called Habayit Hayehudi] has become, but also how extremist Israel has become since now its leaders are competing with Bennett.
This one provokes by saying, Its mine, all mine! And this one challenges him by saying, Its all, all, all mine! The third, meanwhile, chimes in, Its all, all, all, ALL mine! Its not the religious who are oppressing the poor while yelling like robbed Cossacks. Its the State of Israel, whose exclusive upholding of Jewish rights among the thinned-out human rights has, over the years, become open, ruthless, violent and coated with demagogic pathos.
How can we describe the history of this extremism of making the illegal legal? Its too easy to put a skullcap on the head of this demon, or to call it a Likudnik. Something eludes this description, something for which Warhaftig, with his words, serves merely as a reference.
In the beginning there was the violence. The lands were confiscated. The areas of settlement were defined with the help of the military government, whose raison dêtre was to maintain a hold on those lands until the legislation could be passed (and not for the usual excuse of security). After the violence came the law. The law was cautious. Circuitous. Fragile. The violence never moved from its side all along.
It is worth viewing the history of the armys role, parallel to the legislation, as an exception that spreads. While he was chief of staff, for example, Moshe Dayan got permission from then-Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion to provoke Egypt to start a war. Historian Mordechai Bar-On called it a deterioration strategy.
Dayan then cultivated Ariel Sharon, even though he violated orders and lied and performed heroic acts from Qibya [in the West Bank] to Mitla [in Sinai]. Dayan and Sharon in turn nurtured Meir Har-Zion, who had a great love of nature and working settlements. There were many others military forces, journalists and legislators that turned a blind eye, and a judicial system that was compartmentalized by choice. This is the hidden, secret monster that allowed itself everything. The army was the incubator of the exclusion.
Then the illegality spread with the logic of the occupation, the rule of military orders and exceptions, including the settlements; the total indifference to international law; the millions of Palestinians outside the law, without any rights, living in a state of emergency that permits everything administrative detentions, house demolitions, assassinations, torture, show trials, land seizures and checkpoints. Their subjugation was permitted because we are strong.
Indeed, democracy played an important role in achieving international legitimacy for the nascent state. Thats why most of the Knesset voted, in 1949, to allow Arabs to vote. Now we dont need any legitimacy from the West. We have carte blanche. Thats why the thugs permit themselves everything. This explains the arrogance of Benjamin Netanyahu, Gilad Erdan and Zeev Elkin.
The monster comes out of hiding during the state of emergency, makes its way to the Knesset, and pees on the (minimalist) Declaration of Independence. All the Americans have is Guantanamo, we have Arabs. Hello, President Reuven Rivlin, are you there?
Source: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.628347
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)News Agencies
Published: 11.26.14,
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas says he supports Israeli members of parliament who oppose the plan to formalize Israel's status as a Jewish state.
Speaking in the South African capital, Pretoria, Wednesday, Abbas said it is important that the Israeli government and citizens consider what the proposed law may mean for peace in the region.
"We need to ask this question to the Israeli people and to ask this to the Israeli government: What does this bill mean for peace?" Abbas said, speaking through a translator.
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas says he supports Israeli members of parliament who oppose the plan to formalize Israel's status as a Jewish state.Follow Ynetnews on Facebook and TwitterSpeaking in the South African capital, Pretoria, Wednesday, Abbas said it is important that the Israeli government and citizens consider what the proposed law may mean for peace in the region."We need to ask this question to the Israeli people and to ask this to the Israeli government: What does this bill mean for peace?" Abbas said, speaking through a translator.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4596554,00.html
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)second class citizens.
The sate of Apartheid is alive and well in the state of Israel.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)How so?
Israeli
(4,132 posts)By Gideon Levy 05:23 27.11.14
It may be better to take the right wing seriously for a change. Of course, we may despise this whole silly Jewish nation-state law affair, its creators lust for party primaries and greed for high ratings, and think that it will be quickly forgotten anyway. We might look at it in the context of an Im-bigger-than-you contest among the right wings leadership. Of course, we might also take it more seriously and be afraid that it will harm the Arab minority living in the State of Israel.
We might also suggest a different, much more serious and dangerous reading of the bill: It conceals a plot more far-reaching than it seems. This bill is legal preparation for the right wings one-state solution, the annexation of the territories and the establishment of the Jewish apartheid state. The bill is the constitutional foundation, and its acceptance is the laying of the cornerstone of the binational segregation state that the right wing is setting up quietly and methodically, unseen and unhindered.
Israel is definitely a state ruled by law. Since its establishment, it has based all its injustices on laws. The Jewish nation-state law will one day be the first article in its constitution. Its ramifications at that point will be more serious than they appear: They will not apply only to the Arab minority, the countrys citizens, as it seems now they will; they will apply to half the inhabitants of the incipient apartheid state. That is the bills true purpose.
The proof of this is indisputable. Anyone who still believes in the two-state solution will never need a Jewish nation-state law. The two-state solution is supposed to ensure a clear and decisive Jewish majority and then, what will all the fuss be about?
It is only in a binational state that the bill is essential. Only there must all the privileges of one nation be anchored in law, as opposed to those of the other. Only there must the precedence of the Chosen People over the inferior indigenous nation be assured. Only there is a Jewish nation-state law necessary.
True, the right wings insistence on passing the bill into law stems from long-term concern over the future of the state the apartheid state. The weakness of the center-left, which has proposed amendments to the bill as if amending a nation-state bill were even possible illustrates how the right wings deception has hoodwinked us as well.
Gray characters such as Zeev Elkin, Yariv Levin and even Ayelet Shaked are incapable of giving the impression that they are motivated by any vision other than Jewish nationalism and hatred of Arabs and foreigners. No one has ever suspected Benjamin Netanyahu of being a strategist either. Yet we cannot ignore the possibility that this could be a fraud with a crucial outcome. The appearance of inaction, populism, manipulative scheming, survival and clinging to power may be concealing a well-organized, dangerous plan that is coming true before our wide-shut eyes.
It is no accident that the Jewish nation-state bill was introduced only after the right-wing government succeeded in (almost) completely killing the two-state solution. Now that it is obvious that there will not be two states, they must start worrying about the character of the one state, which is already in the formative stages. They must make sure, at any price, that it will not be democratic and egalitarian.
And what do we have that is more effective and vital than a Jewish nation-state law? This is how the last excuse of the apartheid-deniers, who claim that unlike in South Africa there are no racial (or national) laws here, will fall. The Jewish nation-state law will shape the character of the one state according to its spirit the spirit of apartheid. The law will ensure what the right wing has always been saying: that this country has room for two peoples, one superior and one inferior. One with all rights, and one with none. From now on, under the protection of the law, according to which everything is done. First in sovereign, occupying Israel, and soon in the annexing and colonialist one, too.
Source: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.628675
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Shak could learn something from you.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)He is the author of that piece.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Did you have something important to say?
Israeli
(4,132 posts)but ... the day that Shak and Co. pay any attention to what I or Gideon Levy has to say ...is the day that you tip your hat to Daneel .