New Low: Anti-Israel BDS Connects Ferguson to ‘Palestine’!

[shira]

What does the situation in Ferguson, Missouri have to do with Israel? In truth, nothing at all. The fact that BDS (Boycott, Divest and Sanction) groups are linking the two demonstrates they will take any opportunity to promote their misguided agenda.

http://unitedwithisrael.org/new-low-bds-connects-ferguson-to-palestine/

[oberliner]

1. Stand Up Seattle?

Is that the group represented here? That seems to be what it says on the banner, bottom right.

[shenmue]

2. Of course

[Fred Sanders]

3. The connection is institutional racism, clear enough on the banner, why the confusion?

Occupation Is A Crime, Ferguson to Palestine
Resist US Racism, Boycott Israel

Clear enough connection to me, but I am not a racist.

I would call it a new High, but again, I am not.....

[oberliner]

8. Why bring Israel/Palestine into the discussion at all?

Why not just focus on the issue itself with respect to Ferguson and the US?

[Fred Sanders]

10. Because racism has no borders.

[oberliner]

13. Was attention brought to global racism?

For instance, were there banners of solidarity connecting the victims of racism in Ferguson to the victims of racism in other countries besides Israel?

If so, can you provide evidence of such?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

24. Ah, yes. It's the "Let's look everyplace else first and then Israel last" nonsense...

It's always easier that way, isn't it? Smokescreens?

[azurnoir]

25. Can you provide us with "evidence" of other oppressed people besides Palestinians reaching out to

Ferguson as Palestinians did?

[King_David]

11. If some link the Jewish State to Nazism and every other evil of the world

Why not Ferguson too?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

15. What a sad little straw dog you have.

[Shaktimaan]

29. So you're saying...

That racism is the cause for the occupation?

Or at least that's what the banner is saying.

[Fred Sanders]

35. Racism is the cause, continues to be the cause and those thst continue not to see the racism are

of course, racists, who, by definition, will of course not agree they are.

The denials mean nothing to me, I am not blinded by internalized prejudice.

[King_David]

37. So everyone is racist except for you?

Okay....but I don't think that's true.

[Shaktimaan]

39. By definition?

What about the definition of racism precludes racists from admitting they are racist?

The denials mean nothing to me, I am not blinded by internalized prejudice.

Well, actually you are. Your prejudice (by your own admission), is precisely why the facts of this conflict have no effect on your opinions about it.

Here, I'll show you...

First, please list the range of books you've read about this specific issue.

[Fred Sanders]

44. I love apple pie, do you?

[Shaktimaan]

49. I do.

Thank you for proving my point btw. It'll come as no surprise to veterans of this board that it's usually the individuals who hold the most rigidly partisan views on this conflict who tend to be the least well informed.

[King_David]

52. Agreed

[DetlefK]

4. Both have equality written in law but racism when it comes to applying law.

Sure, burn palestinian crops, bulldoze their villages, deny them building-permits, declare their land national parks (with nothing to see)... Everything is perfectly fine in Israel.



Ah, scratch that equality. Let's make Israel officially a jewish state!

[oberliner]

9. But Israel is not responsible for the actions in Ferguson

Why not keep the issues separate and keep the focus on what actually happened in Ferguson and what it means?

[Scootaloo]

12. No one is saying that Israel is responsible for Ferguson, Oberliner.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

16. Scoot, what you are witnessing is just

the usual sad sack nonsense that is thrown at the wall to see what sticks.

[grossproffit]

5. ISIS is using the Ferguson tag for recruitment. eom

[azurnoir]

6. Not new 8/15/14: Palestinians tweet support for Ferguson protesters

perhaps your source is under-informed

Palestinians have taken to Twitter to express their support for American protesters in Ferguson, Missouri — where demonstrators have been clashing with police over the shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a policeman — with some advising local residents on how to cope with tear gas, based on their own experience with Israeli forces.

Many Palestinians said they identified with the tear-gassed protesters, as they felt they too had suffered injustices at the hands of IDF soldiers during protests in the West Bank.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-tweet-support-for-ferguson-protesters/#ixzz3KHMxXIn9

[oberliner]

7. 8/14/14: Rabbis show support for Ferguson protesters

Thirty rabbis from various denominations took part Monday in a civil disobedience protest opposite police headquarters in Ferguson, Missouri, to demonstrate against the killing of an unarmed 18-year-old who was shot to death by a police officer in the St. Louis suburb two months ago. The protesters stood in the location for four hours and thirty-two minutes, to mark the length of time Michael Brown’s body was left in the street after he was killed by Darren Wilson, who has not been detained or charged with any crime so far

http://www.timesofisrael.com/rabbis-show-support-for-ferguson-protesters/#ixzz3KHl5A26r

[azurnoir]

26. well it'd great to see Ferguson has so much support n/t

[azurnoir]

27. your fully 2 months off as your link is dated 10/14/2014 not 8/14/2014 as you claim

Rabbis show support for Ferguson protesters
Jewish activists join demonstrations against August killing of unarmed black teenager by police officer in St. Louis suburb
By Times of Israel staff October 14, 2014, 5:30 pm 4

Read more: Rabbis show support for Ferguson protesters | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/rabbis-show-support-for-ferguson-protesters/#ixzz3KKq5MEn0
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

oberliner
7. 8/14/14: Rabbis show support for Ferguson protesters

View profile
Thirty rabbis from various denominations took part Monday in a civil disobedience protest opposite police headquarters in Ferguson, Missouri, to demonstrate against the killing of an unarmed 18-year-old who was shot to death by a police officer in the St. Louis suburb two months ago. The protesters stood in the location for four hours and thirty-two minutes, to mark the length of time Michael Brown’s body was left in the street after he was killed by Darren Wilson, who has not been detained or charged with any crime so far

http://www.timesofisrael.com/rabbis-show-support-for-ferguson-protesters/#ixzz3KHl5A26r

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113488719#post27

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

14. So what are you saying, shira?

Are cops that shoot African Americans good or bad in your world view?

Are Palestinians that suffer the same fate just different due to their being capped by Israelis?

Where do you stand on the similarities?

[shira]

18. I'm saying lowlife BDS racists are hijacking a cause....

Last edited Thu Nov 27, 2014, 09:54 PM - Edit history (1)

....in order to get their Jew hate on.

These same racists have been defending and supporting Jew-hating, terrorist murderers like Rasmea Odeh for the past few months. Jewish victims of terror aren't human enough to the anti-Israel bigot brigade. Best for the anti-semites to support their terrorist murderers.

I'm no more impressed with these asshats than with Stormfront neo-Nazis.

So that's what I'm saying.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

19. Oh, I believe that you will call BDS anything in order to vilify them.

So what is it that is different between Ferguson and Gaza. Unarmed African American gunned down, unarmed Palestinians being gunned down.

To find some nuggets of pure racism all one has to do is read some of the comments associated with the Nakba day killings; where some questioned if the Palestinians were hurt at all, acting or not really dead.

Now there are your lowlife racists, and they're not BDS.

[shira]

20. BDS terror supporters & apologists vilify themselves. n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

21. BDS supporters weren't vilifying the Palestinians murdered on Nakba day, silly.

I believe that some of your own posts went a little too far WRT the deaths of a few Palestinians and how you viewed them.

[shira]

22. BDS asshats support terrorists like Rasmea Odeh & are Hamas apologists.

The same Jew hating racists hijacking Ferguson.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

23. That's your misguided and dubious belief.

[shira]

30. When Rasmea Odeh is the newest shiniest poster child of BDS....

...as she has been for the past couple months, that's indicative of everything BDS racists stand for. That's what the Palestinian cause is to BDS terror apologists who cheer on such an unrepentant terrorist and bigot.

From Mondoweiss to ElectronicIntifada to JVP.

These are the racists hijacking Ferguson.

If you could find some people associated with or supportive of BDS who have a problem with Jew hating terrorists like Rasmea Odeh, that would be greatly appreciated.

Maybe supply some links.

I'll wait.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

31. Want to link that instead of cherry picking?

We all know how you like cherries oh so much.

[shira]

32. Link what? All the anti-Zio BDS support for Rasmea Odeh? n/t

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

33. Link your cherry-picked quote, silly.

[shira]

34. Which quote? n/t

[Shaktimaan]

28. Seriously?

Are cops that shoot African Americans good or bad in your world view?

I dunno. How do you feel about them?

Are Palestinians that suffer the same fate just different due to their being capped by Israelis?

That, sure. And pretty much everything else surrounding either event. The general topic, "Palestinians killed by Israelis" really just doesn't have anything in common with the ferguson shooting. Unless maybe you're speaking specifically about an Israeli cop shooting an unarmed palestinian Israeli. Otherwise you're starting from two entirely different situations. The first: an Israeli soldier's primary job is to protect Israelis FROM palestinians. The other: an American cop kills someone whose safety he is responsible for protecting.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

36. Seriously. Attempts to claim it a new low when both African Americans and Palestinians

are treated with contempt, or murdered outright, by LEOs is in fact the new low.

Thanks for participating in it though.

[Shaktimaan]

41. Really?

When exactly were Palestinians murdered outright by LEOs?

You're drawing an equivalence between LEOs and soldiers. The two are hardly the same thing. Soldiers are not used to enforce laws, police are.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

42. You're funny.

Border cop charged in Palestinian teen’s killing
http://www.timesofisrael.com/border-policeman-charged-with-manslaughter-in-may-shooting/#!

Dad decries soft charge for Israeli accused in videotaped killing of son
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/dad-decries-soft-charge-israeli-accused-videotaped-killing-son

Palestinians, NGOs accuse Israel of shoot-to-kill policy
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-2848082/Palestinians-NGOs-accuse-Israel-shoot-kill-policy.html

[Shaktimaan]

43. Your link

Refers to instances when Palestinians were shot and killed while attacking/killing Israelis. That's really supposed to be your example of how events In ferguson and Israel mirror one another?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

45. Yes, since that is what the LEOs usually allege when killing an African American or a Palestinian.

"They had it coming. The Heavily armed LEO was skeered."

But I can see how some might side with an aggressive, lethal police force that kills members of a beleaguered people to keep them in line.

My point.

[Shaktimaan]

46. So you're alleging...

That the terrorists mentioned in your link were not actually attacking or killing anyone when they were killed?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

47. You'e got a perverse definition of terrorist, but it fits with you narrative.

"Nadim Nuwara, 17, was shot dead in cold blood on 15 May, when he presented no possible danger to anyone, in a killing caught by several cameras, in the occupied West Bank town of Beitunia."

[Shaktimaan]

48. Does it?

I'm sorry, when did the shooter in that example accuse his victim of terrorism, or defend his actions as self-defense? It should have been pretty clear we were discussing the other 3 or 4 examples given in your link.

He was arrested and indicted, in any case. Not to mention that the perpetrator was a border cop, not a police officer responsible for the protection of the victim's rights; the same point I've raised to you repeatedly. It hardly supports your theory that a parallel between ferguson and Palestine exists.

So far every example you've given that reference police killing a palestinian whose rights and well being they were sworn to protect are of people killed while perpetrating terrorist attacks.

This isn't a defense of soldiers who commit war crimes, like the shooter during the nakba day killing. It's a recognition that the dynamics surrounding such events versus the one in ferguson bear little resemblance to one another.

I'll grant that this example is perhaps the closest you could come to drawing a parallel, but you've been unable to find even a single example of an israeli cop killing an unarmed israeli Arab, leaving your accusation unsupportable.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

50. No, poor shak. You declared them all terrorists.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=88963

46. So you're alleging...

That the terrorists mentioned in your link were not actually attacking or killing anyone when they were killed?

A cop is a cop, shak, but thanks for trying.

You really should take a break. From all your spinning you must be getting dizzy.

[Shaktimaan]

51. Nice try.

Look at your bolded quote... "The terrorists mentioned in the link..." Nowhere did I imply that everyone was a terrorist, nor was that my intention.

A cop is a cop, shak, but thanks for trying.

Really? All cops are the same? Israeli border cops' job is entirely different from the civil police. They were originally a branch of the IDF and still employ conscripts serving their three year bid with the army. Their purpose is to secure the border and protect settlements. Most of the soldiers you see in east Jerusalem and around settlements are actually from this branch. Point being, they aren't there to protect Palestinians but to provide security to Israeli. As opposed to a civil PO, who are responsible for protecting the entirety of their constituency. In Ramallah, where this shooting occurred, the palestinian civil police is the organization responsible for maintaining law and order.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

53. Yes, nice try, shak, but please stope being disengenous.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113488719#post46
So you're alleging...

That the terrorists mentioned in your link were not actually attacking or killing anyone when they were killed?


I'd like everybody to see where shak tries to pretend that the Palestinians killed by trigger-happy Israeli LEOs are terrorists.

Then please read on as sh/e tries to define down what a cop is.

Yesh, nice try, shak.





...but thanks for showing everybody where you stand on the murder of Palestinians civilians by Israelis.

[Shaktimaan]

56. Disingenuous?

I'd like everybody to see where shak tries to pretend that the Palestinians killed by trigger-happy Israeli LEOs are terrorists.

So then it's true. You don't consider any of the Palestinians cited in your link to be terrorists?

Of course, four out of five of those Palestinians were in the middle of attacking/killing Israelis when they were shot. Which raises the obvious question, if the perpetrators of the recent Jerusalem massacre don't qualify as terrorists to you, who would?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

57. In Israel Michael Brown would have been accused of being a terrorist.

Please proceed, shak.

[Shaktimaan]

58. Yeah, you say that.

But you know what would give that statement an iota of credibility?

If you could give even a single example of an unarmed civilian being shot and then falsely accused of terrorism in israel.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

59. Yes, I do say that, shak, since Israelis kill a lot of Palestinians.

And surprisingly they burn down their farms, hem them in, humiliate them, imprison their children, steal their land and then kill them and call them terrorists when they fight back.

Some racket Israel and its apologistas has going.


Right, shak?


On edit, shak, it seems that Israel, it's illegals and the hired guns that protect them fit better into the criteria of state sponsored terrorism.

[Shaktimaan]

60. Beautiful post.

I appreciate your honesty (finally!) wrt this issue. You characterize terrorist attacks against innocent civilians as "fighting back" while saving your criticism for the Israelis for calling the perpetrators "terrorists."

I understand what you're saying. In your view Israelis who commit a variety of (non-lethal) crimes qualify as terrorists, but Palestinians guilty of mass murder do not. To you, it seems that Palestinians are incapable of committing crimes like terrorism against Israelis.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

61. Hey shak. Tell me about Irgun. Tell me about terrorists.

[Shaktimaan]

62. Wow.

The interesting thing is that it's your ideology that should support the Irgun's actions, not mine.

Which raises the obvious question: Do you consider the Irgun to have been terrorists? Or were they merely "fighting back" against Arab violence and oppression?

Or do you just have two separate standards? One for Arabs and another for Jews?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

64. No, shak, I'm looking to see where your

double standards lay.

So tell me about Irgun. Tell me about Israel's terrorists.

[Shaktimaan]

68. Ok

Well, the Irgun were a terrorist group that were responsible for attacks like the king David hotel bombing and the yeir Dassin massacre. They were investigated and arrested by the haganah during the "hunting season" for their violent acts against the British. This culminated in the IDF sinking the altalena, an Irgun cargo ship ferrying weapons to Israel.

Now, is there a reason you so readily support palestinian terrorism as merely "fighting back" yet presumably condemn Jewish terrorism?

You said "no" in your post. No means... No you don't consider the Irgun terrorists? Or no you don't have double standards? (We already know that you do though, such as wrt the Temple Mount controversy. Only one group is deemed worthy of praying at a site holy to both religions.)

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

69. And who was the head of this Irgun...this terrorist that later became PM of Israel?

C'mon, shak. You can do it.

[Shaktimaan]

70. Do you have a point?

Shamir became PM. And later successfully negotiated peace with Egypt.

Of course this is no different than the Palestinians electing former terrorist Arafat as their PM. Aside from the part where Shamir brokered peace of course. In fact, the gazans actually elected a party that was and is still actively committed to terrorism, Hamas. Who unsurprisingly also neglected to broker any peace deals.

So now, have you thought about any of my questions?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

71. I was actually thinking about Menachem Begin. And do I have a point. Sure.

The same ruthless and lethal brute terrorist mentality of Irgun never really went away in Israel. It has grown and still is administered by the progeny of Irgun. The only difference is that the Palestinians are now the victims of this obscene violence.

I also have to add that I find it a more than a little humorous that you saw fit to humanize Israel's terrorist(s) while vilifying other that used the same tactics to achieve their goals.

Don't get me wrong, shak, I don't support terror. I just find humor in the hypocrisy of others that defend terrorists, in a round about fashion, when they can identify/rationalize with those people in some way.


Thanks for playing.

[shira]

73. R. Daneel, you wrote you don't support terror....

So you must certainly have big issues with Mondoweiss for defending and supporting an unrepentant terrorist like Rasmea Odeh.

Please share with us the issues you have with Mondoweiss' support of a terrorist like Odeh.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

74. Send me the link shira, and I will be happy

to assess your angle.

[shira]

75. Sure. Here's 4 links of Mondoweiss support for Rasmea Odeh

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113417963#post373

And here's a link to Rasmea Odeh's sister confirming Odeh's involvement in terrorist activity:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=113489045#post42

So Mondoweiss supports and defends a terrorist.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

76. Do you even bother to read what you post?

Like I have written before...you are god awful.

Article 1
U.S. authorities accuse Odeh of lying on her 1994 immigration application by failing to mention an arrest and conviction in an Israeli military court that occurred 45 years ago. Odeh, along with many other Palestinian political prisoners who strive for their country’s liberation, was imprisoned in Israeli jails from 1969 until 1979 during which time she was tortured. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/11/cornell-charges-against#sthash.7WCHGxzT.dpuf

Article 2
But Judge Drain did allow the conviction in Israel to be entered into evidence; and even though he suggested that Rasmea’s assertion that she faced torture and sexual abuse at the hands of her Israeli captors was “credible,” he still ruled that it could not be brought up in the course of her trial. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/11/travesty-despite-israeli#sthash.UvxY6GQd.dpuf

Article 3
There are clear omissions in Odeh’s immigration forms. She was arrested in 1969, tried in 1970 in an Israeli military court and served ten years in prison in relation to a Tel Aviv bombing, and none of this made its way into her naturalization paperwork. Yet, Odeh is very much a victim. Before her 1970 trial, for nearly a month she was tortured and physically and sexually abused by her Israeli captors. Her military hearing relied on a confession she gave during this violent interrogation. Odeh contends it was a false confession, a regular occurrence at the time of her arrest. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/11/francisco-activists-conviction#sthash.vJ9ZGjQ3.dpuf

Article 4
Between 1969-1979, Rasmea Odeh served 10 years in an Israeli prison. Her sentence was based on a confession she made in the midst of 45 days of sexual and physical torture while in detention. Following her release, she was exiled from her Palestinian homeland and eventually immigrated to the United States from Jordan in 1994 as a legal resident where she tried to put her memories of torture behind her. She later became a naturalized citizen.
- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/10/feminist-scholars-against#sthash.6a7kd4Ns.dpuf

Article 5
Though she was sentenced to life by Israel, Odeh was released ten years later as part of a prisoner exchange with the Israeli government. Israeli soldiers tortured her while she was in prison, according to testimony published in the Journal of Palestine Studies. She came to the U.S. in 1995 and obtained citizenship in 2004. - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/11/palestinian-activist-immigration#sthash.RijeJW8p.dpuf

[

b]On Rasmea Odeh
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/court-motion-details-palestinian-american-rasmea-odehs-torture-israeli

When Odeh, aged 19 at the time, was first arrested by Israeli soldiers in 1969, she was taken to an interrogation center in Jerusalem where she was beaten with wooden sticks, metal bars, open hands and fists, and kicked with booted feet. Odeh described the sensation she had after the prolonged beating, saying it was “like there was a fire in my head, like high electricity voltage, like my head was going to explode.”

For the first week of her detention, Odeh was menstruating and the Israeli guards did not give her any sanitary protection or allow her access to the bathroom. She reported that for the first 25 days of her 45 days in detention in Jerusalem, Odeh was denied regular sleep and was continually beaten and humiliated.

One guard, known as “Abulhani,” punched her repeatedly on her ears, resulting in impaired hearing for two years.

Odeh was left naked for most of the time, in front of male guards as well as other detained men.

At one point, Odeh was forced to watch the torture of a detained man, during which the guards connected the man’s genitals to electrical wires and subjected him to electric shocks. Odeh reported that she watched him die during this torture.

Shortly after witnessing the electrocution, Odeh was herself tortured with electric shocks; the wires were attached to her genitals, breasts, abdomen, arms and legs.

In yet another incident, Odeh’s father was brought into a room where she was lying naked on the floor, and ordered to have sex with her. It was this threat that Odeh says finally coerced her to signing a confession.

But, according to Fabri’s affidavit, even after Odeh signed the confession, the torture did not stop.

and...

Dahr Jamail | Rasmea Odeh: Victim of Institutional Oppression, From Israel to the US
http://truth-out.org/news/item/27590-tortured-and-raped-by-israel-persecuted-and-imprisoned-by-the-united-states

The charge is based on a "confession" obtained by rape and torture at the hands of members of the Israeli military (IDF) more than 40 years ago. Odeh, who moved to the United States in 1995 and serves as the associate director of the Chicago Arab American Action Network (AAAN), was alleged to have "confessed" to the bombing charges imposed by the Israeli military court.
---
Truthout previously reported how Odeh, along with 500 other Palestinians, was arrested at the age of 22 by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during a massive security sweep following the 1967 war and occupation of the West Bank.

At the time, as now, many Palestinians who were detained by the IDF were later charged with crimes they did not commit to justify their detention. Odeh was charged with bombing a supermarket. While in prison, she was tortured with electrical shock and raped with batons.

Odeh's father was tortured in front of her. IDF personnel even attempted to make her father rape her.

Nowhere does Mondoweiss endorse torture or terror in these articles. The article have to do with a trial in which the US government accused her of fraud.


You really are a horrible person, IMHO.

So was she tortured into a confession?

[shira]

77. Spinning an unrepentant terrorist into a victim is beyond vile...

Last edited Wed Dec 3, 2014, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I pointed you to a video where her sister states Rasmea was significantly involved in terror activities resulting in the murder of 2 Jews. That's part of a longer video called Women in Struggle. You can watch it all. Rasmea is in the same room as her sister while her sister implicates her.

What do you do with that video?

Ignore it altogether as Zionist propaganda? Pretend it doesn't exist? Change the topic?

Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada and Max Blumenthal (who writes for Mondoweiss) currently have avatar pics on their Twitter feeds, posing with Rasmea Odeh.

==================

There's no evidence she was tortured. If you're going by her word, she lied and was convicted of immigration fraud. Her sister says she's a terrorist while she denies. Why would you believe a word she says?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

78. I told you that I would be happy to assess your angle.

"There's no evidence she was tortured."

It's your general MO, shira, isn't it?

Palestinians killed on Nakba day? Well they must be faking it you say.

Palestinians on tape being abused by Israelis? Well it must be Pallywood you say.

Boycott Disinvestment and Sanctions picking up steam? Well they must ALL be anti-Zio haters supporting terror you say.

And now the distraction of the day...

Her sister says she's a terrorist while she denies. Why would you believe a word she says?

So your angle is to distract with another waste of time, accusations that at the very least are completely suspect; all in defense of a corrupt regime that kills, tortures and destroys.

The question really is not why anybody would believe a word she says but why would anybody believe a word you say?


Nelson Mandella and Mahatma Ghandi were also considered terrorists by the same kinds of people that you now defend. Think about that one for a while.

[shira]

80. Did you watch the video? Do you believe her sister lied?

Last edited Thu Dec 4, 2014, 07:34 AM - Edit history (2)

If you watched the video, Rasmieh and her sister are sitting right next to each other on a couch. The video I pointed you to was part of a longer video called "Women in Struggle".

1. Her sister says Rasmieh was the ringleader who drew her into military work (terrorism).

2. Her sister admits Israelis found explosives in their home (both sisters were in the same home) immediately after the 1969 terror bombing. Earlier in the video, her sister says the family home was where they stored the weapons. Rasmieh and her brother were both involved.

3. Rasmieh then says about the terror bombing that the occupation is responsible for it. Israel got what it deserved. She certainly doesn't deny her involvement.

These are not accusations that are suspect.

=============

And now you're supporting Rasmieh?

Seriously?

[shira]

85. Bookmarked thread: Let's recap:

1. You said earlier to Shak that when Palestinians attack civilians and are shot in response, the Palestinians are just fighting back. They're not terrorists. This must be the "self-defense" you were referring to this summer when u asked whether Palestinians have such a right against Israel.

2. You deny Rasmieh Odeh is a terrorist despite her sister implicating her on video while sitting beside her.

3. You spin all these racist murderers who kill Jews into victims.

4. You then accuse "dreary bigots" here of defending and supporting Israeli terror against innocents when it appears that's exactly what you're guilty of doing.


Did I miss anything?

[Israeli]

72. Yitzhak Shamir was head of the Irgun ?????

.....really Shaktimaan

" And later successfully negotiated peace with Egypt. "

Double

Shamir was one of the leaders of Lehi also known as the Stern Gang more militant even than the Irgun.

He abstained in the Knesset votes to approve the Camp David Accords and the Peace Treaty with Egypt.

Yet while establishing Begin as a leader with broad public appeal, the peace treaty with Egypt was met with fierce criticism within his own Likud party. His devout followers found it difficult to reconcile Begin’s history as a keen promoter of the Greater Israel agenda with his willingness to relinquish occupied territory. Agreeing to the removal of Israeli settlements from the Sinai was perceived by many as a clear departure from Likud’s Revisionist ideology. Several prominent Likud members, most notably Yitzhak Shamir, objected to the treaty and abstained when it was ratified with an overwhelming majority in the Knesset, achieved only thanks to support from the opposition. A small group of hardliners within Likud, associated with Gush Emunim Jewish settlement movement, eventually decided to split and form the Tehiya party in 1979. They led the Movement for Stopping the Withdrawal from Sinai, violently clashing with IDF soldiers during the forceful eviction of Yamit settlement in April 1982. Despite the traumatic scenes from Yamit, political support for the treaty did not diminish and the Sinai was handed over to Egypt in 1982.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin

[Shaktimaan]

79. Is it weird that...

Because both things I said were wrong I'm less embarrassed about it??

Yes, I mixed up their names. I obviously meant Begin.

Shamir never did anything as a politician that even slightly mitigated his earlier Lehi actions. Rabin and Arafat signed Oslo. Begin had the Egyptian treaty. Even Sharon had the withdrawal from gaza. But Shamir, he's really got nothing. He's not exactly a great example for what I was saying in that post.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

88. Thank you. It was rather lovely in telling the truth of it all.

Let's recap for for you and the passing DU reader.

Yes, I do say that, shak, since Israelis kill a lot of Palestinians.

And surprisingly they burn down their farms, hem them in, humiliate them, imprison their children, steal their land and then kill them and call them terrorists when they fight back.

Some racket Israel and its apologistas has going.


Right, shak?


On edit, shak, it seems that Israel, it's illegals and the hired guns that protect them fit better into the criteria of state sponsored terrorism.

So Illegal Israeli settlers who harass Palestinians, burn down their groves and orchards, chop olive trees down, prevent Palestinians from farming their own lands since they are now close to illegal Israeli settlements, confiscate Palestinian lands then build more illegal Israeli shit on them, stone Palestinians in plain sight of the IDF, murder Palestinians...pretty much sum up what terror is all about: state sponsored terror.

So, no, shak, Israelis that terrorize others are terrorists. Israeli LEOs that snipe Palestinians and kill them are terrorists.

[Shaktimaan]

89. So if I understand you correctly...

You're saying that the Palestinians who murdered those four Israelis in Jerusalem are NOT terrorists. However a settler who chops down olive trees or commits other acts of non-violent vandalism IS a terrorist?

You said one thing I agree with. Israelis who murder Palestinians for political reasons certainly are terrorists. However, can you explain exactly why Palestinians who throw stones at Israelis are not terrorists IF Israelis who throw stones at Palestinians are?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

91. No, you apparently don't understand anything correctly...

…or perhaps you are being intentionally obtuse?

Let's recap Israeli terror.

Border cop charged in Palestinian teen’s killing
http://www.timesofisrael.com/border-policeman-charged-with-manslaughter-in-may-shooting/#!

Dad decries soft charge for Israeli accused in videotaped killing of son
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/dad-decries-soft-charge-israeli-accused-videotaped-killing-son

Palestinians, NGOs accuse Israel of shoot-to-kill policy
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-2848082/Palestinians-NGOs-accuse-Israel-shoot-kill-policy.html

[shira]

92. You're avoiding Shaktimaan's questions from #89.

Support your argument or fold.

Put on those big boy pants and either justify your remarks or admit you're wrong.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

93. Let's recap Israeli terror.

Border cop charged in Palestinian teen’s killing
http://www.timesofisrael.com/border-policeman-charged-with-manslaughter-in-may-shooting/#!

Dad decries soft charge for Israeli accused in videotaped killing of son
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/dad-decries-soft-charge-israeli-accused-videotaped-killing-son

Palestinians, NGOs accuse Israel of shoot-to-kill policy
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-2848082/Palestinians-NGOs-accuse-Israel-shoot-kill-policy.html

[shira]

95. So you can't defend the nonsense you spewed in #88. Why not say so?

And you already did a recap in #88. To which Shakti tore it apart:

You're saying that the Palestinians who murdered those four Israelis in Jerusalem are NOT terrorists. However a settler who chops down olive trees or commits other acts of non-violent vandalism IS a terrorist?

You said one thing I agree with. Israelis who murder Palestinians for political reasons certainly are terrorists. However, can you explain exactly why Palestinians who throw stones at Israelis are not terrorists IF Israelis who throw stones at Palestinians are?

How many goalpost changing recaps do you get?



To answer your latest, I've never seen any cop charged with terrorism for doing what that border cop did in Beitunia. He was definitely wrong and it was probably done out of hatred. He should be convicted and locked up like any other cop. But calling it terrorism is OTT.

The Jewish thugs who burned that child this summer could definitely w/o question be considered terrorists for what they did.

[shira]

87. So the murders in a Jerusalem synagogue last month....

....was merely "fighting back" and not terrorism?

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

94. Try to keep up, shira.

Let's recap Israeli terror.

Border cop charged in Palestinian teen’s killing
http://www.timesofisrael.com/border-policeman-charged-with-manslaughter-in-may-shooting/#!

Dad decries soft charge for Israeli accused in videotaped killing of son
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/dad-decries-soft-charge-israeli-accused-videotaped-killing-son

Palestinians, NGOs accuse Israel of shoot-to-kill policy
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-2848082/Palestinians-NGOs-accuse-Israel-shoot-kill-policy.html

[shira]

96. Answered in #95. Your turn to answer. n/t

[shaayecanaan]

17. I am sure that events like this

would not resonate with African Americans in the slightest:-

[shira]

38. BDS Group Spreads Photoshopped Image of Concentration Camp Inmates Holding Anti-Israel Posters

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/11/28/bds-group-spreads-photoshopped-image-of-concentration-camp-inmates-holding-anti-israel-posters/bds-flyer/

[Mosby]

55. repulsive. nt

[Israeli]

63. Despair is driving me towards BDS....

A year ago I would have condemned any boycott of Israel, not least on my own Princeton campus. But now, despite my reluctance and reservations, I can’t reject it out of hand.

By Maya Wahrman

Lately it has been hard for me to be an Israeli. At home in Israel, peace seems more distant than ever before. Here at Princeton, I have been drawn into the debate about boycotts against my country and who is to blame for the summer’s Gaza conflict.

This summer I watched the place I call home go up in flames, rockets, and bombs. It was agonizing. For the first time I had friends and peers who were drafted as soldiers to Gaza. And for the first time in my adult memory the Palestinian casualty rate rose so high it could no longer be ignored.

When I returned to Israel in early August, my friends were broken. Those who had believed in peace no longer did. Residents of the south had spent the whole summer paralyzed, living in fear. Famous Israelis who had condemned or even mourned the loss of innocent Palestinian life were ostracized. There was real, complicated pain. I was afraid of returning to Princeton, where students often have shouting matches sparked by buzzwords rather than a thoughtful dialogue where both narratives are fairly considered and the pain on both sides is truly acknowledged.

I did come back to Princeton. At the start of the semester, the campus seemed almost numb, but recently there has been a sharp rise in tensions. When a number of important professors placed an advertisement for a very moderate version of the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement (BDS) in The Daily Princetonian, within hours many friends and acquaintances had already asked for my opinion of the BDS movement.

I didn’t know what to tell them. A year ago I would have condemned it on the spot, but now I was, and am, not so sure. The moderate version of BDS being discussed here is limited to divesting from companies that directly assist the occupation, not a blanket boycott of Israeli products and markets. Nor does it endorse the closing of academic channels that could stop important debate and punish one of the most liberal sectors of Israeli society.

In the first week of November,the Princeton Committee on Palestine (PCP) created a memorial for the casualties of the Gaza war outside our campus center. They individually planted over two thousand flags, Palestinian and Israeli, to commemorate each life lost. Last time the PCP held a vigil for Gaza victims in the same spot, Israeli lives and suffering had been ignored. So this time I was impressed. Passing students were asked to write to a family who had lost a child. Such sensitivity and compassion during these hard times moved me deeply. Yet the night after its installation, the memorial was trampled on and vandalized.

Someone I knew from childhood died fighting in Gaza this summer. Seeing a flag destroyed that represented his life hurt me, an Israeli, a human being. And I do not even know who the vandal was.

So if you ask me what my opinion is on BDS, I’ll say: Seeing BDS come to campus saddens me deeply. But it’s no longer because I strongly disagree with it. What drives me to despair is the fact that my country has reached such a level of injustice that it might be necessary to take so drastic a measure to actually change something. That our political and military leadership seems to avoid at all costs the just solution: The end of the occupation, and the peace, security, and self-determination of all peoples between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. Even more so, my despair comes from knowing how many people died, suffered, and feared this summer. The loss of homes and of hope.

I want change. I am tired of people dying. But BDS is not to be decided upon lightly, and there are legitimate arguments for and against.

One convincing argument against the movement is its placing of all of the blame and responsibility on Israel to reach a solution. This past year saw long diplomatic negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and they failed unequivocally. Urging diplomatic negotiations because they’re “fairer” for both sides makes no sense. Both governments bear blame, but Israel is the actor more accepted by the international community, recognized as an independent nation with a modern army and extensive support and aid from the United States. Realistically, Israel is the one with much more power to make a change.

Some people fear BDS because they think it will be harmful to Israel. I answer that most of Israel’s current policies regarding Palestinians harm Israel because they harm humanity. If we fear anti-Semitism, let us be just, and our strong allies will support us. I suspect that others fear BDS because they are afraid it might actually work. Which makes it all the more promising.

This is what I ask of you. If you see a Palestinian flag, do not stomp on it because it is Palestinian. If you meet an Israeli or a Jew, do not judge them on Israel’s actions. Some of my greatest moments of despair are when I hesitate to share that I am Israeli for fear of being judged on the spot by my nationality and by my government. And if you hear about BDS, do not immediately disqualify it because it is harsh on Israel. Nor should you immediately support it without considering the wide-reaching and serious consequences.

I have by no means run the full gamut of important considerations. I do not know if BDS is the answer. But if commercial sanctions effectively pressure the Israeli government and show them that the injustice must end, potentially leading to commitment to a peaceful resolution, then who am I to stand in the way?

Maya Wahrman is from Jerusalem, and grew up in Bloomington, Indiana. She is an undergraduate in the History Department of Princeton University, where she also studies Arabic and Creative Writing. She has interned at various non-profit organizations in Jaffa, including an Arab-Jewish welfare nursery school, the Open Clinic at Physicians for Human Rights, Israel, and the Mesila Refugee Organization.

Source: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.629221

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

67. Good article, but sad.

[Israeli]

81. If BDS can end the occupation I'm all for it Daneel....

I dont see any other option on the horizon ....yes its sad ....but the occupation is sadder .

No matter what shira and Co. throw at it ...it seems to be working ....which is more than I can say for our Gov and their policies .

Ref : http://www.alternativenews.org/english/index.php/news/240-major-bds-win-elbit-loses-brazil-deal

[shira]

82. What does 'end the occupation' mean to you? Exact 1949 armistice lines?

That will never happen and everyone knows that.

Does ending it mean withdrawal from all the W.Bank minus the major settler blocs?

[Israeli]

83. shira ...

I was not talking to you and I have no desire to communicate further with you .
Your racism and your hatred has become to much for me to swallow any longer .

I'm Gush Shalom and since the day I joined this forum I have made it perfectly clear what my views are with regard to ending the occupation .

Please do not address me directly ever again .

If you feel the need to debate with one of us further try here :

https://www.facebook.com/GushShalom/info

[shira]

84. This is a debate forum. Your views should be challenged...

Especially when some of the excerpts you post here are not only false but blatantly racist, inciting hatred.

Put me on ignore if you'd rather live in an echo chamber where everyone nods in agreement with you.

[King_David]

90. " I'm Gush Shalom"

Do you clip and link for them?

[bemildred]

65. I guess Ferguson is the new Hitler:

White supremacy and Zionism converge in deleted Times of Israel post on Ferguson

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113489039

[bemildred]

66. And:

Ferguson protests used as fuel for Islamic State propaganda

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/in-the-loop/wp/2014/11/25/ferguson-protests-used-as-fuel-for-islamic-state-propaganda/

Even the Islamic State thinks Ferguson makes a good Hitler.

[azurnoir]

86. apparently the fact that Palestinians themselves connected with Ferguson 'upsets' some

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201408141902-0024060