Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael's Chief Military Rabbi questions Islamic religious significance of Al-Aqsa compound
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/15532-israels-chief-military-rabbi-questions-islamic-religious-significance-of-al-aqsa-compoundDuring a lecture at the Otzem Pre-Military Torah Academy in Moshav Naveh, he claimed that Muslims have no real reason to pray at Temple Mount, known as al-Haram al-Sharif (The Noble Sanctuary) in Arabic.
"The only mosque any holiness is attributed to is Al-Aqsa. The rest of the Temple Mount has no religious significance," Peretz claimed.
"What is the Al-Aqsa Mosque?" Peretz asked. "It says in the Quran 'make me a mosque on the edge.' Al-Aqsa is on the edge. The edge of what? Mecca? The edge of the Arabian Peninsula. When they bow, they bow to Mecca but their backside is turned to the Temple Mount, because the edge for them is the edge of the Arabian Peninsula. So what are they doing on the Temple Mount?"
My fellow DUers, this is what Palestinians & Muslims fear: right-wing bigoted Israelis that are intent on delegitimizing the fact that al-Haram ash-Sharif (The Noble Sanctuary) has stood there since 705 CE.
This is, IMHO, pure bigoted racism at the highest levels of the Israeli government.
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Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)away from the bigots who are trying to delegitimize Al Asqa mount and the Muslims that have worshiped there for 1,300 years.
shira
(30,109 posts)The point is that the whackos you cite hold fringe views that are rejected by the vast majority of Israeli society. Not just secular or non-Jewish society but also the great majority of religious Jews in Israel as well.
However, you can't acknowledge that - can you?
You want us all to believe these crazies represent the mainstream, right?
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)Live with it.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It all comes from Bible or Koran nonsense ... These are not property deeds.
The only Bigots are those restricting entrance or prayer to one pretty homogenous group or the other that is not the same as oneself... Those are the real bigots.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
You're a riot...
Always working an angle.
King_David
(14,851 posts)
PDJane
(10,103 posts)That is what it was meant to be. A state only for the Jews. Damn be to the Palestinian arabs living there.
Moreover, it is built on a myth; there has never been a strictly Jewish state, and there should not be a strictly Jewish state on someone else's land.
It's a tale for a bigoted colonial nation.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)I don't think these books are property deeds .
Anybody who wants to pray at a site they consider holy should be allowed to no matter what some mystery book says purported to be written by some G-D.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I don't believe that you have really thought that one through all that well.
King_David
(14,851 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)been a strictly jewish state, back in the time of the macabees, thru Herod and until it was annexed by the Romans. It was a Jewish state.
Jews have always lived in the area, sometimes the population was high, others it was low due to being massacred and many forced to leave.
Do you think that there should be no state of Israel, since you believe it is a 'colonial nation'?
PDJane
(10,103 posts)Other people lived with the Jews. Yes, Jews have always lived in the area. In fact, several times, it was Muslims who invited them to do so.
The state was never for singly and only Jews, not even in the time that King David was supposed to exist. By the way, Jerusalem was likely abandoned during that time, and it had been built in 3500 BCE, by a West Simitic people, long before Judaism existed. That the city itself became a flashpoint between Christians, Muslims and Jews is an accident of history.
The "massacred and forced to leave" thing is mostly fiction, too. Jews lived in peace with their neighbours until the Zionists decided to take over.
No. I don't believe that Israel should exist in it's current form. The vicious occupation that is Israel should be stopped yesterday. Maybe the day before. One colonial power gave another colonial power land that wasn't theirs to give, and the Zionist government has been killing and occupying and terrifying people ever since.
You want to stop suicide bombings and rockets? Stop the occupation. Period.
And the reason for Jews to be banned from Al Aqsa mosque? That is a holy site, but not Israel's holy site. The biblical story cannot be proved there, either, and that is a historical site. The bridge to that mosque has been destroyed by the Israeli army, and people made homeless in the process. Jerusalem is not a Jewish city, and never has been. See above.
King_David
(14,851 posts)You said :
Wrong:
Majority Jewish at this very moment.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)We know from the Greeks, Macedonians, Persians, that the Maccabees actually existed. We know from proven records that a jewish kingdom was formed under them (and they forced people they conquered to convert to Judaism, including the people of King Herod). We know Herod was a real person thanks to the well documented history the Romans gave us. we also know that the Persians let the come back from Babylon to have a client state and build (rebuild?) a temple.
These are historic facts that are backed up by archaeological diggings, records from multiple places.
When the Jews defeated the Seleucid empire (which we know is a historic fact from the Selucid and Egyptian records) they formed a Jewish state.
Additionally, the Herod Jewish Temple CAN be easily proven. We have multiple accounts of it from the Romans.
Jerusalem HAS been a jewish city, and to say otherwise completely ignores known history (not biblical) history.
What is occupied to you? All of Israel?
PDJane
(10,103 posts)but they have been there and remained there. The British occupiers gave a portion of the land to the Jews, and the Jews have made life miserable for those who remain. Mind you, the British also promised the Land of Palestine to the Palestinians; they took that promise and had a state apparatus in place, including a government infrastructure, a thriving middle class, and an educated population. Even now, with all the difficulties there are in education, the illiteracy rate remains at around 4%....lower than in the US. There was no International law concerning conquered lands during that time. However, Israel has signed the Geneva convention; they have been ignoring it practically since the ink was dry.
That convention is national law for those countries that signed it. That includes the US and the US has been ignoring it since the ink was dry, too. The US is, by the way, ignoring the Leahy amendment too:
The law covering State Department funded aid is found in Section 620M of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (as amended most recently in January 2014).[7] It states:
“ (a) IN GENERAL. – No assistance shall be furnished under this Act or the Arms Export Control Act to any unit of the security forces of a foreign country if the Secretary of State has credible information that such unit has committed a gross violation of human rights.
(b) EXCEPTION. –The prohibition in subsection (a) shall not apply if the Secretary determines and reports to the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate, the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the House of Representatives, and the Committees on Appropriations that the government of such country is taking effective steps to bring the responsible members of the security forces unit to justice.
(c) DUTY TO INFORM. – In the event that funds are withheld from any unit pursuant to this section, the Secretary of State shall promptly inform the foreign government of the basis for such action and shall, to the maximum extent practicable, assist the foreign government in taking effective measures to bring the responsible members of the security forces to justice.
(d) CREDIBLE INFORMATION. The Secretary shall establish, and periodically update, procedures to
(1) ensure that for each country the Department of State has a current list of all security force units receiving United States training, equipment, or other types of assistance;
(2) facilitate receipt by the Department of State and United States embassies of information from individuals and organizations outside the United States Government about gross violations of human rights by security force units;
(3) routinely request and obtain such information from the Department of Defense, the Central Intelligence Agency, and other United States Government sources;
(4) ensure that such information is evaluated and preserved;
(5) ensure that when an individual is designated to receive United States training, equipment, or other types of assistance the individual's unit is vetted as well as the individual.
(6) seek to identify the unit involved when credible information of a gross violation exists but the identity of the unit is lacking; and
(7) make publicly available, to the maximum extent practicable, the identity of those units for which no assistance shall be furnished pursuant to subsection (a).
”
The Department of Defense Appropriations version of the Leahy Law, as most recently found in Section 8057 of the 2014 Omnibus bill reads:[8]
“ (a) IN GENERAL--
(1) None of the funds made available by this Act may be used for any training, equipment, or other assistance for the members of a unit of a foreign security force if the Secretary of Defense has credible information that the unit has committed a gross violation of human rights.
(2) The Secretary of Defense, in consultation with the Secretary of State, shall ensure that prior to a decision to provide any training, equipment, or other assistance to a unit of a foreign security force full consideration is given to any credible information available to the Department of State relating to human rights violations by such unit.
(b) EXCEPTION--The prohibition in subsection (a)(1) shall not apply if the Secretary of Defense, after consultation with the Secretary of State, determines that the government of such country has taken all necessary corrective steps, or if the equipment or other assistance is necessary to assist in disaster relief operations or other humanitarian or national security emergencies.
(c) WAIVER --The Secretary of Defense, after consultation with the Secretary of State, may waive the prohibition in subsection (a)(1) if the Secretary of Defense determines that such waiver is required by extraordinary circumstances.
(d) PROCEDURES--The Secretary of Defense shall establish, and periodically update, procedures to ensure that any information in the possession of the Department of Defense about gross violations of human rights by units of foreign security forces is shared on a timely basis with the Department of State.
(e) REPORT --Not more than 15 days after the application of any exception under subsection (b) or the exercise of any waiver under subsection (c), the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the appropriate congressional committees a report--
(1) in the case of an exception under subsection (b), providing notice of the use of the exception and stating the grounds for the exception; and
(2) in the case of a waiver under subsection (c), describing the information relating to the gross violation of human rights; the extraordinary or other circumstances that necessitate the waiver; the purpose and duration of the training, equipment, or other assistance; and the United States forces and the foreign security force unit involved.
(f) DEFINITION --For purposes of this section the term ``appropriate congressional committees means the congressional defense committees and the Committees on Appropriations..
This has been used as a tool of state, BUT has not been used against Israel, even though Israel violates human rights laws with impunity.
There is a limit to what we should tolerate in an ally; Israel has, this week, detained a mother and her children, separating the children, age 11 and two years, from their mother. That's obscene, and it's time that this stuff quit. Their mother is still in jail. Executive director of the Palestinian Prisoner's Society Abdullah al-Zghari said that the two children -- nine-month-old Balqis Ghawadra and two-year-old Baraa Ghawadra -- had been delivered to the organization from the Holy Family Hospital in Bethlehem after Israeli authorities dropped them off there.
http://www.imemc.org/article/69853
No, this stuff is not printed here or in the US. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just means that the news is very selectively controlled.
An 11 year old girl died this week because she couldn't get to a functioning hospital. Two children were shot by the IOF, apparently for target practice, during commemorative services. What the hell? The rockets are not flying from the Palestinian side, but the murders and the oppression continues.
No. Just no.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)IOF?
It seems that the only thing that would make you happy is the destruction of Israel, and a single state, known as Palestine, with any jews that migrated there leaving. After all they are 'colonists' in your eyes..
That idea is on the same level as the terror groups, such as Hamas, IJ. Are you aware of that? Are you aware that you want the same thing as them, even if not the same way?
PDJane
(10,103 posts)The bible is not history, nor does it give anyone special rights. Your life is no more important than that of a ten year old in Gaza, shot because he was going to school and the soldier decided to shoot him. Just no.
I actually and absolutely don't care about the existence of a Jewish state on a land that hasn't ever been a strictly Jewish state. The people who came there simply to populate the illegal settlements should not be there. Nothing gave them that right, including the decrees from the UN or the Balfour declaration. Nothing in law or holy writ gave Israel the right to take away rights from those people who existed there. Those settlements are illegal. The wall is illegal. The 'wars' are, in fact, collective punishment. In fact, the Balfour declaration insists on the rights of the indigenous population. The bible is a work of fiction that does not guarantee anyone land. Not you, not me, not that guy over there. If Israel were to get behind the borders given to them, and live with its neighbours, that's another story. Fine. Do that. Pay reparations or allow the owners of land to return. Punish those who disobey the rules. Live with the Palestinians in peace. It has happened before and can happen again, provided you don't assume that you are worth more than the Palestinian down the street.
Hamas again. Hamas is both a political entity and a resistance force, and has a right to exist under the Geneva conventions and the Balfour declaration. You do realize this, right? You do realize that the Palestinians were not consulted...were, indeed, promised that self-same Palestine, and had the Passports, education, and a middle class when Zionists and the British decided that the land should be given to the Jews? Why should they be happy with the presence of the Jews? Jews lived in the middle east, in peace with their neighbours, until the advent of Zionism. The Mizrahi Jews were forced out of lands around Israel, yes. Did you know that most of those Jews did NOT go to Israel to live? They weren't particularly welcome, for starters.
It's about the same as deciding that Great Britain is part of the historical Rome (after all, they were there for about 350 years, more or less the same amount of time that Historical Israel existed). Thus, all the Italians needing a job and a house are free to kick out the British family of their choice and take over. No. Just no.
There is no way to justify this cock-up. There just isn't. You want Hamas to stop shooting rockets? Stop the occupation. Stop killing their people, especially their children. Obey international law. Behave like civilized people.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)all of israel to be occupied. so unless Israel were to disappear, they will continue with their attacks.
Hamas is a terror organization. Additionally, due to how they fight, sans uniforms, etc, they are NOT recognized under the Geneva conventions to be a legitimate resistance organization.
Additionally the Palestinians were consulted over the partitioning of the Mandate, but they rejected it and wanted ALL of it. Jordan tried to intervene and gave leading jews in the Mandate an option of not declaring independence, in exchange Jordan would annex all of the Mandate and the Jews living in the Mandate would be given special reserved seats in King Abdullah I's parliament. He did not consult with the Palestinians Arabs.
and as I said in the other post, there are over 2 million Mizrahi jews in israel, compared to 300k in the rest of the world. They were indeed accepted in to Israel. The numbers simply do not lie. Most of them went to Israel.
Israel was attacked in 1948 when they declared independence, were about to be attacked in 1967 ( the Jordan, syrian and Egyptian armies were massed on the border about to attack, were attacked in 1973.
Between 1948-1967 Gaza and the WB were occupied by Arab countries not Israel. Israel did not occupy one square inch of Palestine between those years. But no Palestine was declared, mainly because the other arab countries really did not want a Palestine, but wanted the land for themselves. (and in fact Jordan annexed the WB and claimed sovereignty over it until the 1980's)
Finally, yes the Palestinians wanted their own country, but the borders of it had to be determined, as there was never a Palestine before. Both the League of nations and the UN tried to negotiate permanent borders but all were rejected, they wanted all or nothing.
But no 'country' was stolen from them prior to 1948, as they never had a country which could be stolen. It was always a province of one empire or another.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)Britain and Russia birthed Israel, and the US took custody. There is nothing at all, in history or in the present that gives all of Palestine to the Jews, either. The Palestinians have given up more than Israel would ever dream of doing for peace.
Hamas, hamas, hamas, again. Hamas has granted Israel the right to exist. Hamas has given Israel a great deal. Hamas is demanding perfectly reasonable things that Israel has agreed to......and then refused to give them.
There is no equality here. There is no reason for Israel to be in all of Palestine, and that is what they are demanding. They are removing the citizenship of Palestinians now, refusing to allow them their flag, and they continue to make incursions into Gaza even after the peace fire.
This is genocide, and Israel is trying to erase the history and existence of the Palestinians. Israel was not given the entire state. They don't have any right, by law, to do the things they are doing.
That you will support the "rights" of a people who weren't there for most of the history of Palestine or Israel is obscene.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)That you will support the "rights" of a people who weren't there for most of the history of Palestine or Israel is obscene.
It's been obvious throughout this thread that you clearly believe some groups are entitled to more rights than others. For arbitrary reasons, backed up with ridiculous propaganda, (the British promised Palestine to the Arabs! Hamas has accepted Israels right to exist!), you seek any excuse, no matter how laughable, to argue that Palestinian rights supersede Jewish ones.
So blinded are you by propaganda you fail to see even obvious contradictions in your narrative. (If the British had the authority to "promise" Palestine to the Arabs, then they implicitly also had the authority to give it to the zionists. Of course, neither of those things actually happened in real life, but it's besides the point.) seriously though, I've never seen more flat out untrue statements in a thread before. Your posts must be breaking some kind of record. Almost nothing you said is actually true. You know less about this topic than anyone I've ever met. Some of my favorites...
Israel is a theocracy because races and ethnicities don't really exist. Therefore "Jewish state" means "religious state."
The Temple Mount doesn't exist because the temple is no longer there.
Hamas just wants to live in peace with Israel.
Israel committed gross war crimes by arresting someone's mother. Because her kids are separated from her now, I think?
Only Jews are allowed in Israel.
These are all so absurd there's no point in having a debate. I suggest a book or Google or, really, anything other than whatever you've been using to get your facts.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)Forget about your biblical privilege.
The Palestinians were there, and have been there.
shira
(30,109 posts)Going back 3000 years there has always been a Jewish presence in the land.
Jews today share the same culture, religion, language, traditions, and DNA as their ancestors from thousands of years ago.
I doubt you'd deny any other indigenous people the right to their own land, so why the Jews?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Did I mention biblical privilege?
Hint. I didn't.
King_David
(14,851 posts)http://archive.adl.org/anti_semitism/arab/temple_denial.html
shira
(30,109 posts)Israel's Sephardi chief rabbi said on Friday that it is forbidden for Jews to go to the Temple Mount.
“This is the place to call on the esteemed public to stop this incitement, from here a call is heard, forbidding any Jews from going up to the Temple Mount – From here a call is heard to stop this so that the blood of the People of Israel may stop being spilled,” Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef said.
Speaking at the funeral of Shalom Aharon Badani, the second casualty of Wednesday's terror attack in Jerusalem on Friday, Yosef blamed rabbis that allow Jews to go to the holy site for "adding fuel to the fire."
He used harsh terms to rebuke rabbis who call on Jews to go to the holy site, which contradicts the overwhelming majority of halakhic authorities that forbid entry to the Temple Mount compound to Jews because of its holiness. This is also the position of the Chief Rabbinate.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)I guess not all of the Rabbis agree, but bigot is as bigot does.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)that comes out of many muslim fundamentalists mouths. They question the significance of the Temple Mount to jews, claim that even the wailing wall is part of the al asqa mosque and jews should not pray there. Some even claim that no jewish temple was ever built in Jerusalem.
Further more even after building of a mosque on the Mount, jews for centuries were allowed to go up there and pray by muslim authorities. This was revoked from time to time depending on who ruled Jerusalem. But it wasn't until the 19th century that this was completely outlawed.
I do agree that until there is an agreement by the Jewish and Muslim leaders for a specific area/dates/times for Jews to pray on the Mount, Jews should not pray there. But to deny that jews have prayed there far past the building of the al-asqa mosque is just ignoring history, which we have strong records of.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)It has nothing to do with the fact that the al Aqsa mosque is there, that the site is considered holy by Muslims, and that Israel is trying very had to erase not just the existence of Palestinians, but the history and record of Palestinians.
The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 and the Hague Regulations of 1907 forbid occupying powers to alter the lifeways of civilians who are occupied, and forbid the settling of people from the occupiers’ country in the occupied territory. Israel’s expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem, its usurpation of Palestinian property there, and its settling of Israelis on Palestinian land are all gross violations of international law. Israeli claims that they are not occupying Palestinians because the Palestinians have no state are cruel and tautological.
That land has owners, and has had owners from the time of man's origination.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)that it existed from at least the time of the Persians when Jews were returned to Judah (aka Judea aka Israel) when the king of the Persians, issued a decree ordering that it along with all of Jerusalem be rebuilt.
Do you also think that Jews expelled from Muslim countries should be given their land back or proper compensation? About an equal number of jews were forced to leave or fled from Muslim countries post the declaration of a state of Israel, as there were Arabs expelled/fled from Israel at the same time.
The first Persian Empire came in to being about 2500 years ago, and that is when the temple was built/rebuilt. That is simply a historic fact. If you want to ignore well know and proven sources then you must ignore a whole lot of history. so maybe not 3000 years ago, but 2500 years ago a Jewish Temple existed in Jerusalem, under Jewish control.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)Yes, I think that Jews expelled from Muslim countries should receive compensation for their land. What, pray tell, does that have to do with anything? Contrary to popular belief, Jews and Muslims have lived in peace for most of their existence. In fact, they haven't fought until the Zionist movement arose. The Jews came back to Judah at the invitation of Islam. The Jews have been expelled and invited back in by Islam on several occasions. Let me see if I can find a list......I did have it.
The Temple on the Mount has not been there for two thousand years; destroying Al Aqsa mosque is not going to do anything except erase the existence of the Muslim majority. And, quite frankly, it is meant to erase Islamic history; that's why it is being attempted.
Islam has not subjected the Jews to continued and thorough debasement, they haven't stolen lands they weren't given from the Jews and no Arab nation has subjected it's populace to this kind of sustained and brutal occupation, nor do they kill a portion of the children of jews every year.
It's a red herring. It doesn't work. There is no damned excuse for this, and it needs to stop before the state of Israel either ceases to exist or causes another conflagration.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)were not Muslim. This is the year ~500BC we are talking about after all.
And I am glad that you are now admitting that a Temple did once exist on the Temple Mount. Yes it has not been there for ~2000years. No I do not think that Al-asqa (or the dome of the rock) should be destroyed. But realizing that it is indeed a holy spot for both religions is very important.
Arabs (mainly Muslims) did steal lands from Jews when they forced jews to leave their lands after 1948. Arabs slaughtered Jews during the arab revolt. Most Arab nations have been under (or continue to be under) brutal dictatorships which has about as long (if not longer) than Israel has been around. Every year Egyptians, Saudia Arabians, etc are killed by their governments for being 'dissidents'
And when Jews were allowed back in (not really invited but allowed back there is a difference) for the most of Muslim rule over Jerusalem, up until the 19th century, Jews were allowed on the Temple Mount and were even allowed to pray there unmolested. Now I do not think that the current situation will allow jews to pray there, but history must be acknowledged that it has happened within the past 150 or so years.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)It's a religious state. Religious states are not democracies. Never have been, never will be.
Yes, there was a temple mount. It's not there any longer, and demolishing the mosque will not bring back the Temple. You do realize that most of the people who want the temple rebuilt, at least in the US, want to bring on the rapture, right?
It's insanity. And yes, Arabs did steal lands from the Jews. However, the whole mess could have been avoided if the Jews had not decided to steal the land of Palestine in the first damn place. I would also point out that most of those expelled Jews did not end up in Israel. They were Mizrahi, and they had a connection with the Arab culture that Israel did not welcome.
Truly, there is no way to justify Israel's existence that way....nor, frankly, is there any way to justify the continuing oppression and murder of Palestinians.
It is STILL the temple mount. Just because there is no temple there does not change what it is. I personally do not care one way or another if a new temple is built, but to try and claim that Jews have no connection to it because one does not exist currently is plain stupid.
I do NOT want the mosques there demolished. That is insanity.
There has never been a country of Palestine, but an area known at that (also was called syria palestina, which is why Syria claimed that all of it was syria) That name is a corruption of Philistine by the Romans to denigrate the Jews and try to disconnect them from what was called Judea.
25% of the population of Israel are Mizrahi (around 2 million out of about 8 million total citizens). in the rest of teh world there is only 350k Mizrahi Jews. So you are plain wrong that most of them did not wind up in Israel. When in fact they DID end up in Israel. The numbers bear this out.
During the years of British rule over the Mandate (and prior due to an agreement as part of the ending of the Crimea war) Jews migrated to the Palestine Mandate, bought land, or were given land that was not owned by anyone (mainly in the negev desert). They did NOT steal any lands.
During the war of independence about 1/3rd of arabs fled on their own, 1/3rd were forced to leave by Israeli forces and the final 1/3rd left at the behest of Arab commanders on the ground.
Israel should withdraw completely from the west bank (except for the old city) and take any settlers with them. That area is indeed being stolen from what should be a Palestine. But as for the rest of Israel, not so much. For the 1/3rd that were forced to leave, they should be given monetary compensation. the 1/3rd that fled due to war should be given compensation both by the Arab nations and Israel. the 1/3rd that left at the behest of Arab commanders on the ground should be given compensation by the Arab countries.
Israel while has religious aspects to it, is NOT a religious state. It is not ruled by Rabbis, nor do Rabbis have the final say on any laws, appointees, etc. It has a set of basic laws that act as a constitution, it does not go by a set of "Jewish sharia laws" that govern it.
The UK is more of a religious state than Israel, since the head of state (currently Queen Elizabeth II), is also head of the Church of England.
Israel was founded by secular zionists, who were more culturally Jewish than religiously so.
There has NEVER been an independent state of Palestine. There should be one, but there never has been one. To claim that Israel is stolen land, then you might as well say that Jordan is stolen land as well from Palestine, as it was part of the Palestine Mandate and the Hashemite were brought in from outside to rule it. I think anyone that claims that "Jordan is Palestine" is off their rocker personally. But if you are going to say that Israel is stolen land, then you logically have to claim the same of Jordan.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)It was not built by Jews, it was built before Judaism ever existed. Just nope. Not your land, not your business.
The land was conquered by the Jews from the Canaanites. The Jews were conquered in their turn. People learned to live together, even the Jews. The Mizrahi Jews never left, and most of them, being forced out of the land because of Israel, did not go there, but to Northern Africa.
That land was given to the Jews after the world wars, moving the 'Jewish Problem' to the middle east. The state was born in terrorism, and state terrorism is how it continues.
The Palestinians are people. They are educated (the youngest doctor in the world happens to be a Palestinian. Eqbal Asa’d is a Palestinian Muslim woman who started Medical school when she was just 14 years old. She got her medical degree at 20.) They believe in education. They have a higher literacy rate than the US; around 96%. They were promised that land, the land they have resided in for generation upon generation. Britain went back on their promise. However, they assumed that Jews and Palestinians could live together, as they had before Zionism raised it's ugly head. Jewish terrorism put paid to that idea, so the majority of the land was given to the minority of the people.
This has never been fair, and the Zionists have done nothing but take....and punish. Hamas is more civilized than Israel at the moment. There is no two sides. Israel targets civilians, they don't have the most moral army in the world, they do kill children and often, and the settler violence is getting out of hand. The settlers are safe; the IDF makes it so (by the way, IOF means the Israeli Occupying Forces) They go armed so that they can shoot to kill, so that they can intimidate the Palestinians.
If you say that only Jews can live in Palestine, then it is a religious state. Jews are not an ethnic group, there are no races; It is, ergo, a religious state. Some parts of major cities are more or less secular, but that is not true of the settlements and never has been. This is, like most of the statements from Israel, a semantic issue.
It is wrong, and remains wrong.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)there is no such thing as the Israeli Occupying Forces. Maybe you mean the IDF. I know teh D and O look similar on the keyboard at times.
I have never said that only Jews can live in Palestine. You do have a few nutters like lieberman trying to make that happen, but as of right now there are Jews, Muslims, Druze, Christians, etc all living in Israel as Israeli citizens
Additionally, in your other post you try to claim that Palestinians were promised all of the Palestinian mandate for their nation. That simply is a falsehood.
You need to re-read history.
Britain from the time of the end of the Crimea war (Which is before the Mandate started), made sure that Jews were going to be given a state there. Even in the Balfour Declaration, once again before the mandate, said that the Jews should have a national homeland there.
Not once was Palestine promised that they would get all of the mandate as their country.
The partition agreement that Israel agreed to, would NOT have given Israel a majority of the land. But the Palestinians rejected this as they wanted 100% of it, with no jews in it.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)That's because they were there, and had been there, through occupation after occupation. from a Palestinian Arab point of view, the same area had been promised to them for siding with the Allies in World War One and fighting against the Turks who were fighting on the side of the Germans.
The Palestinians were promised the land before the Balfour declaration. Have you read the Balfour Declaration? That declaration assumes that the Palestinians and the Jews would live in the same land, and that the Jews would not try to drive out the Palestinians, steal their land or change their life patterns. The Palestinians were to be protected. The balfour Declaration was granted in 1917. The reason for the partition of Palestine was that the Zionists engaged in terrorism; The King David Hotel, terrorism in the state of Palestine, terrorism in Mizrahi enclaves. When it became apparent that there would be a constant battle, Palestine was partitioned. The Israelis were determined to take the entire land, and they were armed and trained. The Palestinians have never had a military. The Zionists are not innocent in this. Get back behind the 1948 borders, and learn to live in peace.
There is nothing that guaranteed Jews that land.
If you believe in the Torah, it talks about a covenant with God that would grant that land to Jews, yes. First of all, the covenant was broken; that is what the diaspora was about. Various rabbis I have talked to have given various interpretations of the covenant, but none of them have gone so far as to declare that the land of Palestine was meant to be a strictly Jewish state. That has changed, obviously, but I will point out that even so, not all rabbis believe that the Jews are guaranteed a strictly Jewish nation.
If you can't believe in the idea of the Torah and a covenant with an imaginary being, it becomes even more obscene. This is all about the privilege of a group of European Jews. Mizrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews are still not very welcome in Israel. Worse, Israel fed Ethiopian refugees birth control....without their knowledge or consent. There is nothing that gives any human being the right to treat other human beings like this.....in fact, that was part of the covenant with that imaginary being. That you would treat others with love and respect.
As for the Palestinians refusing the partition, the thought wasn't that they didn't want any Jews, it was that they weren't consulted about the partitioning. I don't actually blame them, and the either partitioning gave the most fertile land to someone else. Moreover, the Jews engaged in ethnic cleansing, a vicious process that left people without their land and without compensation ....and without the right to either fight back or leave.
Just no. There is no way to justify what has been done to Palestine, unless you believe that you really are God's chosen people, a special breed of man, entitled to treat anyone who is not Jewish as a non-person.
It's an obscene perversion of a belief. It is not fact.
sabbat hunter
(6,828 posts)counts, it is painfully aware you do not know history.
PDJane
(10,103 posts)
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)that the terrorism, ethnic cleansing and sectarian violence in Palestine was not initiated by the zionists but by arab Palestinians, and was directed at the indigenous Jewish population.
See: the riots in 1920, 1921 and 1924.
The Hebron massacre in 1929.
The Arab uprising from 1936-39.
Jewish terroism did not even begin until decades after arab terroism first appeared.
Mosby
(16,297 posts)but the "al-Aksa" designation is based on biblical fairy tales.
The fact is that the Koran, Torah and Christian bible are not reliable historical records.