Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIn Lebanon, destitute Palestinian camp becomes militant refuge
Lebanon's Ain al-Helweh camp has long provided a stable, if destitute, bolthole for Palestinian refugees, some of whom have lived within its walls since fleeing their homes more than six decades ago.
But the war in neighboring Syria has transformed parts of the southern camp into a safe haven for militants travelling to fight there, creating districts where even Palestinian security forces fear to tread and raising tensions among residents.
In Taware district, the black flag of the Islamic State extremist group flutters in the wind.
A photograph of IS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who has proclaimed a "caliphate" in parts of Iraq and Syria, is plastered on the walls of a small kiosk, alongside a picture of slain Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden.
http://www.maannews.com/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=760322
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guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)You posted:
"Lebanon's Ain al-Helweh camp has long provided a stable, if destitute, bolthole for Palestinian refugees, some of whom have lived within its walls since fleeing their homes more than six decades ago."
Why did they flee their homes more than 6 decades ago?
Is the reason lost in the mists of time?
Or has history been rewritten enough to cause us to forget?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But there is so much revisionist history here that I want to know what particular revisionist history any poster believes. Too many here subscribe to the Israel=good, Palestine=bad history where every Israeli act of genocide and every Israeli violation of International Law is excused by the Nazi genocide.
shira
(30,109 posts)Unreal.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)It is not synonymous with extermination, but rather refers to the targeting and destruction of ethnic groups:
In 1944, a Polish-Jewish lawyer named Raphael Lemkin (1900–1959) sought to describe Nazi policies of systematic murder, including the destruction of European Jews. He formed the word genocide by combining geno-, from the Greek word for race or tribe, with -cide, from the Latin word for killing. In proposing this new word, Lemkin had in mind “a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves.” The next year, the International Military Tribunal held at Nuremberg, Germany, charged top Nazi officials with “crimes against humanity.” The word genocide was included in the indictment, but as a descriptive, not legal, term.
from:
http://www.ushmm.org/confront-genocide/defining-genocide
I trust the source is acceptable. If not I can provide others. And yes, the deliberate murder and attempted destruction of Palestinians in Palestine does meet the definition of genocide.
shira
(30,109 posts)They have the means.
It's beyond absurd to take Israel's defense against Hamas' rockets this past summer as an example of genocide - or an attempt to annihilate a certain group of people.
Crazy talk.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)to one year, 2014, rather than consider that the Jews in Palestine started a campaign of terror in 1946. And once more, genocide is not synonymous with annihilation.
I will include the legal definition here for your reference:
The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.
Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:
1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and
2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."
Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.
Israeli actions since the state was established continued the actions started by Jewish terror gangs. Any attempt to rewrite history might make the author feel better but does not lead to an understanding of the problems in Israel. Reality has a way of intruding on fantasy history.
shira
(30,109 posts)There's never been any conspiracy, incitement, attempts or complicity. In fact, Israel has repeatedly made it very clear their intent is NOT to kill civilians while defending their population against terror. The only people who fit that bill are Meir Kahane (been dead for decades) and his small but bigoted Kahanist following. Israel makes it very clear they are against that. They even banned Kahane from elections.
OTOH, the definition of genocide you provided describes Hamas and other Palestinian militant factions perfectly. They've made it very clear they intend to kill the Jews. They've incited, conspired, and attempted this for decades.
If we go on, can you at least acknowledge Palestinian terror factions are guilty of inciting, conspiring, and attempting to murder Jews in great numbers?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But the intent is clearly there. The claim that they are against killing civilians has been made by the State of Israel in every action that they have taken. But large numbers of civilians are killed. Especially when civilian areas such as schools and hospitals are targeted. And such targeting always happens. Such targeting is called a war crime.
I have never stated that Palestinians are not, or have not, targeted Israelis. But it seems to me that much of the debate about Israel and the Palestinians centers around framing the history of the region. Apologists for Israel will deny that Israel bears any responsibility for its actions, claiming that every Israeli action is merely a reaction to a Palestinian provocation. The apologists deny that Israel could be guilty of terrorism or war crimes while insisting to the world that it is only the Palestinians who bear the blame.
So if we do continue, do you feel that Jewish, then Israeli state, actions to dispossess Palestinians of land ever happened? And if you admit that dispossession did happen, what should be the remedy?
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 8, 2015, 04:25 PM - Edit history (2)
....makes calls to cell phones and makes use of "knock-on-the-roof" missiles to warn civilians to get out of harm's way.
No other nation in combat does that. If anything, Israel makes the greatest attempt worldwide to avoid civilian casualties. Civilian to combatant kill ratios by Israel are lower than that of any other conflict worldwide, including all conflicts involving western nations. Your logic can be taken to mean that if Israel's intent is genocide, then every other nation in combat (every Western nation too) is even more driven to commit genocide since their record with civilians is worse than Israel's.
Where am I wrong?
Meanwhile, Hamas has made it clear that they use human shields. They've been caught on camera doing it. All I see from Hamas apologists is denial or support of this war crime. In addition, Hamas uses child combatants and women as fighters, which skews the death counts. All of this, mind you, is denied by Hamas lovers worldwide.
Israel has its bad apples in the military, as every nation has. It's not policy, however, to act with malicious intent against civilians. Those who do are tried and punished. This demonstrates the opposite of what you're trying to argue.
AFAIK, in recent times when Israel has taken land it has compensated those who lost it. This is rare, however. Israel annexed E.Jerusalem, but that's not taking land or theft. Jerusalem is not exclusive Palestinian land.
If Israel really intended to dispossess Palestinians of their land, they wouldn't have agreed to or offered to live in peace side-by-side along with a Palestinian state (many times over the past century). Israel agreed to the Clinton Parameters of 2000. Ehud Olmert offered even more in 2008 (100% of pre-67' land with swaps), the majority Palestinian part of Jerusalem, limited RoR, compensation, etc.
That's the exact opposite of an intent to dispossess Palestinians. These recent offers by Israel are attempts to undue the annexation of East Jerusalem.
The Palestinians should have accepted their own state long ago in peace alongside Israel.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But Israeli leaders have shown their intent to dispossess by their actions. Israel has systematically dispossessed the Palestinians of their land from the inception of the state until today. The settlements are ongoing and expanding. To say that Israel has "annexed" East Jerusalem is semantics, not substance. Israeli actions on the ground replaced the negotiations that were intended to finalize the status of East Jerusalem.
As to the "warnings" that Israel claims as proof on their humane intent, if I warn you to leave your home before I come over to burn it down how does that constitute humane treatment? It is collective punishment, which happens to be a war crime, as well as targeting civilians, another war crime.
As to human shields, was Rachel Corrie a human shield? The human shield argument is used by Israel to excuse its' policy of bombing Gaza, a heavily populated virtual prison camp where Israel controls all access, utilities, and water.
As to a state, if Israel withdrew back to the 1967 borders, and the status of East Jerusalem was negotiated, there could be peace. But to ask the Palestinians to accept a heavily fragmented number of Bantustans, with access between the fragments controlled by Israel, and with water rights controlled by Israel, is not a recipe for peace. And THAT is what has been offered.
Finally, negotiations demand good faith. How can anyone negotiate with a Prime Minister who has said that there will never be a Palestinian state? Netanyahu's claim that he misspoke is disproven by his actions.
shira
(30,109 posts)Israel has offered the Palestinians their own land twice since 2000. This would've ended the settlements and Palestinians would have received almost everything they've been demanding. All the Palestinians had to do was say 'Yes'. If Israel had intent to dispossess, they wouldn't have made these offers that comply with UNSCR 242.
You're framing it wrong. There are militants who are legit targets in those homes. The intent isn't to abuse civilians. It's to get the terrorists. The only war crime going on is that militants shield themselves among civilians in these homes.
The human shield argument is fact that Israel haters deny, specifically with the intent to both support Hamas' war crimes and put 100% of the blame for these deaths on Israel. It's quite disgusting.
The 2000 Taba accords and 2008 Olmert offer of a Palestinian state didn't involve anything remotely close to Bantustans. Try again, and this time w/o excusing Palestinian leadership for turning down offers that would've resulted in their own state and peace with Israel.
At the rate things are going, there won't be a Palestinian state anytime soon. The Palestinians aren't interested in a 2-state peaceful resolution. Apparently, you support 2 states but without peace. Since peace is Israel's goal (and against that of the PLO and Hamas) it doesn't look like 2 states will happen anytime soon.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And many more refugees rotting for decades in camps because Israel does not recognize a Palestinian "right of return". That is genocide because it is the targeting of a specific ethnic group.
Israel has not offered the Palestinians their own land. It has offered only parts of their own land. A critical distinction.
Targeting civilians is a war crime. If an Arab nation bombed Tel Aviv and justified it by saying that Israeli war criminals were "hiding" there would you accept that argument?
Israel has not offered full withdrawal. It has offered the so-called land for peace solution, where land swaps would take the place of full withdrawal. A good analogy would be me stealing your house and offering some of it back to you in exchange for peace.
An interesting thing might be to see what we do agree on regarding the Israel/Palestine situation. I do not know if it would lead to any agreement on solutions but my feeling is that unless and until Israel and Palestine can agree on a mutually acceptable solution the problem will continue and that is not healthy to either society.
shira
(30,109 posts)There is no such thing as Right of Return for refugees and all their offspring, numbering in the millions today. Point me to some law or UN Resolution stating there is any such right. I guarantee you will find nothing.
Another bogus accusation.
Israel has offered what the Palestinians claim they want as their land, with land swaps. Your problem is with Palestinians who claim they want territories outside the '67 borders of Israel.
You're in denial that Hamas not only hides among civilians, but that they fire away at Israel from densely populated civilian areas.
Why this denial?
Is it just being sympathetic to Hamas, or is the goal to pretend Israel is 100% responsible for targeting civilians out of sheer malice? Maybe a combination of both? Why the denial?
That's what the Palestinian leadership claims they want. You think they're lying? Or maybe they don't know what's best for themselves?
That mutually acceptable solution according to Palestinians - and which Israel has acted upon and offered the Palestinians - is a 2 state peaceful solution based on the '67 borders, with land swaps.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)"with land swaps"
show me anything in International Law that states that one state can keep land that was taken in a conflict. There is no such principal.
As to my claim of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians casualties, and your assertion that the numbers were made up,
https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/
or:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html
and again,
http://ploughshares.ca/pl_armedconflict/israel-palestine-1948-first-combat-deaths/#Deaths
I do not make up numbers. Too easy to get caught. I was a Union Steward for 33 years, representing people in various fora, including the grievance process itself, Arbitrations, EEOC matters, as well as NLRB matters. I believe in research and it showed in my win rate.
I try to present only what I can document.
shira
(30,109 posts)The Arab League Plan (Saudi Initiative) also calls for land swaps.
And according to your link from jewishvirtuallibrary.org, the total is 91K. Nowhere near 100's of thousands.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)2 million to less than 100,000. Given the chaotic conditions, given that the destruction in Gaza precludes accurate counts, and considering that some sources also count Palestinian deaths in refugee camps such as Sabra and Shatila, the true total count may never be known.
But even accepting the lowest estimate of 91,000 admitted deaths, that is genocide because it IS the deliberate targeting of an ethnic group. Or is there a numeric milestone that must be reached before it qualifies as genocide?
As to the swaps, the devil is truly in the details because the two sides are far apart in what is considered acceptable trades.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There is no source that claims 2 million Palestinians have been killed by Israel or anything approaching that number.
Your comments about genocide are similarly ridiculous.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and refute it with specifics. And as to genocide, my comments are based on the legal definition of genocide. The definition that would be used in any trial for war crimes. You may not accept the definition, and that is your opinion, but only the legal definition would be definitive.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If you can point to a source that makes that claim, please do so.
If you want to look at Wikipedia's estimated Palestinians casualties of war that might help give you a more accurate picture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war
If genocide is the deliberate targeting of an ethnic group, regardless of the numbers killed, then surely you would also agree that the Palestinians have been committing genocide against Israeli Jews as well. As there have been deliberate Palestinian attacks specifically directed at this ethnic group for decades (and rhetoric suggesting that there will be more to come).
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)For anti-racist Jews and indeed all anti-racist humanitarians the core moral messages from the Jewish Holocaust (5-6 million dead, 1 in 6 dying from deprivation) and from the more general WW2 European Holocaust (30 million Slav, Jewish and Gypsy dead) are “zero tolerance for racism”, “bear witness”, “zero tolerance for lying” and “never again to anyone”, anyone including the Indigenous Palestinian victims of the racist Zionist Palestinian Genocide - 2 million dead since 1936, 0.1 million from violence, 1.9 million from war-, expulsion- and occupation-derived deprivation; 7 million refugees; 4.1 million Occupied Palestinians deprived of ALL the human rights listed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ; 6 million Palestinians forbidden to even live in the homeland continuously inhabited by their forbears to the very dawn of agrarian civilization; 0.9 million Palestinian children confined without charge or trial to what the Catholic Church and many others have described as Israel's Gaza Concentration Camp for the asserted "crime" of being Indigenous Palestinians living in a tiny, remorselessly Zionist-bombed patch of Palestine.
and the link, which was included earlier:
https://sites.google.com/site/palestiniangenocide/
Genocide is genocide no matter who the victim, no matter who the perpetrator. Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, the Rom, the Jews were all victims of Nazi genocide. As were native peoples in the US. Jews who target Arabs and Arabs who target Jews are equally guilty of genocide, no matter the provocation.
shira
(30,109 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I am certain, or at least I hope, that you are aware that Palestine was ruled by the British until 1948 under the Mandate. So your question needs more clarity.
Even this source admits that Palestine was administered by the British.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/ww1.html
A question for you: In your opinion, have the Israelis ever committed genocide against the Palestinian people since the state has been established?
shira
(30,109 posts)Hitler's favorite Mufti and Arafat's uncle.
So once again, is it true or false that Palestinian leadership since the 1920's has been genocidal with respect to Jews?
No, not once.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But to say that one person speaks for all, or makes all guilty means that ALL Americans are equally guilty of dropping two nuclear devices on Japanese civilians.
So when the inhabitants of Deir Yassin were slaughtered by Jewish terrorists that slaughter did not constitute a war crime and genocidal act? Interesting how expressions of morality can be subordinated to the power interests of a state.
shira
(30,109 posts)And they haven't just spoken, but acted upon it by ordering attacks against Israeli and Jewish civilians.
Is it really possible you're unaware of this?
The way you use the genocide definition is inconsistent. History proves the Palestinians meet the criteria way better than the Israelis. It's not even close.
==========================
As to Deir Yassin, Israel bashers have been claiming for decades 254 killed. That finally had to be revised to 100...
http://arabterrorism.tripod.com/FAQ/yassin2.html
If your sources cannot even get that right, what else did they get wrong?
See this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre#Propaganda
And here are excerpts from a BBC program also calling everything into question:
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I am asking if you can point me to any source for that claim.
King_David
(14,851 posts)This now shows credibility of all posts.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It includes figures for the 1967 War for example that include Egypt, Syrian, and Jordanian casualties.
The actual total number of Palestinian casualties is much lower.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Most of them were born there.
Are there any other refugees in the world that have not been allowed to absorb into the country's they landed up in for 6 decades , especially since the vast majority were born there.
How about the millions of Jewish Refugees from the Arab countries in particular or even from the world... Have they too not been absorbed into accepting countries?
With what other people does it happen that they are doomed refugees for generations without absorption or assimilation?
In Canada ? USA? Australia?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Under your apologetic for Israeli crimes, I can throw you out of your house, live in it myself, and claim you should move in with your brother. That way I can blame you for your own homelessness.
King_David
(14,851 posts)It's the same in every country including the USA ... Is the land and wealth and houses and every other resource being returned to the original people in Canada, Australia,USA?
How far back do you want to go?
Hundreds?Thousands ?of years?
Well if you go back far enough there were no Palestnians there.
Best for them to assimilate into the countries they were born in like all other refugees of the world including Jews.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Insisting that the land was promised and given to the Jews by God. To any who take that position, I ask that they produce documentation in the form of a deed of land grant or other legal proof as to the claim.
And if you are an assimilationist, do you also speak against the "right of return" that only applies to Jews seeking to immigrate to a country that they have never seen? That would mean that all Jews immigrating to Israel should be sent back to their countries of origin.
Finally, does land and resource theft become acceptable if others have done it? If so, there is no law other than the law of power.
King_David
(14,851 posts)How many years should we go back?
20? 100? 1000?
Who's talking biblical , except for you
To the Macabees ? Ottamens? Romans?
Can us Jews get all our real estate back in Germany, Russia, Spain, Yemen, Morrocco, Latvia, Poland etc etc etc etc etc. ?
We Jews gonna be the wealthiest people in the world.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Thus what was a crime in 1967 is still a crime because the theft, misappropriation, and genocide continue.
King_David
(14,851 posts)They gotta sort out the USA first .
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I do not know what the other 325 million US citizens will do.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)That was the year in which the UN charter proclaimed that it was inadmissible to acquire territory by means of war.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Jerusalem was occupied and abused and will probably stay with Israel .
It may not be fair but it's the way it will be.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Lots of people were forced out of their homes and had to resettle in other countries to start new lives (if they were lucky enough to escape the various wars and other atrocities of that decade alive).
Fortunately, many countries did not force refugees from this period to stay in camps, but rather allowed them to become citizens of the lands to which they emigrated and attempted to start new lives.
As you probably know, the vast majority of the people living in Ain Al-Helweh were born in Lebanon (and in most cases their parents were also born in Lebanon).
For some reason, however, there seems to have been a vested interest in maintaining refugee status for Palestinians and encouraging them not to assimilate into their new homes but rather stay in camps and be second-class citizens (at best).
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Many Palestinians were driven out of Israel by terror tactics and war crimes committed first by Jewish terror gangs, and after the establishment of the State of Israel, by Israeli terrorists masquerading as an army. No amount of revisionist rewriting of history can justify that. But Israeli apologists continue to try.
What the apologists do not seem to realize is that the constant state of war in the area is caused by the continuing Israeli violations of International Law, and that the resultant instability does not truly serve the interests of the Israeli people.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Apologists or not those "Refugees"are no longer refugees as they re for the most part first or second Generation
Palestinian-Lebanese.
Most Jews in the USA are American Jews and do not remain German or Polish or Russian etc etched etc
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)are promised a right of return that is denied to Palestinians who are still being forced from their lands.
And by the "That's all History" theory, are you arguing against any return of assets seized from European Jews in World War 2 because the war ended 60 years ago?
King_David
(14,851 posts)The minute Israel disappears the world will start expelling Jews again.
It will never happen that the USA expels their Jews I think.... But German Jews thought that too.
Ukraine and France are the latest places showing why Jews continue to need the safe haven Israel provides.
Am Israel chai baby - only thanks to Israel.
shira
(30,109 posts)Did you forget?
The perpetuation of the refugees' misery - and that of their children & grandchildren - is solely the fault of those who advocate for and support refugees living in misery until the day they are allowed to end Israel demographically. Thereby making what was Israel into yet another failed and oppressive totalitarian & fascist state. Just like all the others surrounding Israel.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're actually blaming Israel for not allowing all Palestinians (and their descendants who are not refugees by any other definition) back in so that they can resume the civil war they started back in 1947 against the Jews. You want a do-over, and Israel is to blame for not allowing that to happen again.
I find that fascinating.