Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumEU Castigates Israel Over Settlements, Palestinians
AFP – 20 hrs ago
EU foreign ministers on Monday issued a harsh critique of Israel, saying the gathering pace of settlement-building, settler extremism and ill-treatment of Palestinians threatens a two-state solution.
"The EU expresses deep concern about developments on the ground which threaten to make a two-state solution impossible," the bloc's 27 ministers said in a statement issued during talks in Brussels.
"The viability of a two-state solution must be maintained," the three-page European Union statement added.
Israeli settlement watchdog Peace Now said on Monday that Israel was moving ahead with plans to build around 2,000 new homes in the settlement of Gilo, in Israeli-annexed east Jerusalem.
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http://news.yahoo.com/eu-slams-israel-over-settlements-palestinians-151434976.html
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shira
(30,109 posts)Non-stop, hateful, genocidal, anti-Jewish incitement that runs 24/7/365 all across Hamas and PA media within both the WB and Gaza Strip....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11343829#post90
The answer is never.
None of that apparently jeopardizes the 2 state solution.
Fuck the EU.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)now a question do you support a 2 state solution?
shira
(30,109 posts)...than anything Israel has done, now do you?
And of course I support a 2 state solution.
From what I've gathered, it appears you support 2 states but wouldn't mind that turning into one. That seems to be what the PA wants as well.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)here is your claim which you yourself have provided the link to
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11343829#post90
shira
(30,109 posts)And yeah, I think 2 states is the only way. When the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world are ready for that, of course. Doesn't look that way now, does it?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and what question are you talking about?
shira
(30,109 posts)If I understand you correctly, you're for 2 states whether Hamas and the PA want peace or want more war. THAT is why you're for ending the occupation NOW. Neither way leads to peace. But peace isn't the objective, is it? If it were the objective, what kind of peace are you advocating if Hamas and the PA remain bitter enemies of Israel and its Jewish population?
THAT's why you have no problem with anti-zionist groups for Israel's destruction. It's not about a peaceful 2 state solution. It's about a continuation of the conflict, or worse.
I'm for 2 states AND peace. The point is land for peace. I don't think you agree, however.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Last edited Fri May 18, 2012, 02:06 AM - Edit history (1)
oh and how in your mind will Israel go about removing the deeply entrenched settlers from the West Bank?
shira
(30,109 posts)....still inciting the Palestinian population to kill as many Jews as possible? Rewarding terrorists? Could they have done something to prevent such an attack...? Yeah, unreasonable isn't it? Israel should just take it. Screw peace.
WRT removing settlers, Israel has already proven how serious it is when Israel removed settlers in both the Sinai and Gaza. The Israeli Cabinet agreed to the Clinton Parameters which would have uprooted 20% of the settler population in the WB. That's something like 50,000 which is way more than Sinai and Gaza.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... for removing settlers from Gaza and Sinai?
I forget.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)I guess doing something because it's the right thing to do isn't good enough for some people...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and the West Bank settlers have shown a will to resist by force if necessary IDF's efforts to remove them are you seriously avocating for that kind of bloodshed well of Jewish blood anyway?
shira
(30,109 posts)Referring to this genocidal incitement...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11343829#post90
The EU obviously doesn't find any of that to be an obstacle to peace.
Do you?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...to incite others to help them carry out a genocide vs. the Jews.
Most Palestinians aren't genocidal.
Nice try though.
Please answer now.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)means now we could go on to discuss more if you wish let me know okay? such as the Grand Mufti's recitation of an end times prophecy from the Koran?
BTW you do know that the end time prophecies of Zionist Christian groups say that all including Jews who do not accept Jesus as their savior will burn in hell?
shira
(30,109 posts)Are you serious?
Or is it that you don't believe that the content in those videos (even if not about genocide) is at the very least just as harmful to a 2 state solution than settlements?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)towards Jews, you included at least one of Palestinian child, which would indicate otherwise
what you seem to be advocating is the occupation remaining in place until the Palestinians love their occupiers or at least become complaicent and silent, then no problem right?
Do you think it will work?
Response to azurnoir (Reply #42)
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Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)To believe that Hamas is genocidal is to not have any understanding at all of what genocide is. To believe that the Palestinian population is genocidal (a view I've seen supported at DU in the past) is to hold a bigoted view that is broadbrushing a group of people. The latter views shouldn't be welcomed at DU, but when they've been aired, more often than not they pass with little objection by people posting in the same threads....
I think it's possible for someone with a deep seated hatred of the Palestinians to support a two-state solution. If their vision of that solution is one where the Palestinian state is tiny bits of territory that Israel doesn't want and the Palestinians merely have a state where they have autonomy when it comes to local issues, but no control over things like defense, immigration, foreign relations, etc, I don't think such a view would clash with their anti-Palestinian views. Most who hate Palestinians just cut to the chase and oppose a Palestinian state, but they're mainly RWers from what I've noticed...
I also don't believe that anyone who's voiced opposition to the creation of a Palestinian state in the past actually does support the creation of a Palestinian state now....
shira
(30,109 posts)But don't take my word for it, take it from them. They are not ashamed or embarrassed at all to air their views....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11343829#post90
Their "humanitarian" supporters on both the far Right and far Left are all too happy to deny, dismiss, and explain all that away (just rightwing talking points, nothing to see there).
I think it's possible for someone with a deep seated hatred of the Palestinians to support a two-state solution. If their vision of that solution is one where the Palestinian state is tiny bits of territory that Israel doesn't want and the Palestinians merely have a state where they have autonomy when it comes to local issues, but no control over things like defense, immigration, foreign relations, etc, I don't think such a view would clash with their anti-Palestinian views.
Is that about me? If so, I'm wondering how many times I need to repeat that I'm for something along the lines of the Geneva Initiative. I'd be fine with, and stated many times that I was fine with the Clinton Parameters & Olmert's offer. If peace and an end to the conflict has a really good chance of happening and it's obvious the Arab world is onboard, I'd be fine with Geneva being implemented NOW. After all, I'm in favor of land for peace. Genuine peace, not a piece of paper.
As I understand it, the only people against Geneva, etc.. are anti-zionists for one state. The PLO is too, just as Hamas is. Makes me wonder why the alleged 2 staters here are against Geneva, the Clinton Initiatives, and Olmert's offer and almost always side with anti-Zionists rather than liberal/progressive zionists for 2 states.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)I don't give a shit what idiots you can drag in to back you up. The fact is that yr all wrong. Genocide isn't something that's happened in this conflict, and those who claim the Palestinians are genocidal are every bit as ugly as those who claim Israel is genocidal. They're abusing a term for political gain, and as in yr case, are proud of doing it.
No, not everything in this world is about you, Shira. I was trying to explain something to Az....
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Hamas, the PA, Fatah and PLO in several vids as in The PLO, PA, and Hamas all in one breath sort of Lions and Tigers and Bears -oh my however you are right in that it did not concern the actual Palestinian people just their leaders 
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... on what lasts longer... Israel or the EU?
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)What the hell did that bizarre question have to do with the OP anyway? I can understand how the EU's stance could threaten those 'supporters' of Israel who oppose a two-state solution and who think the West Bank is part of Israel...
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)I'm crushed. I may actually cry myself to sleep tonight.
Europe lost any moral authority it might have had concerning Israel seventy years ago.
shira
(30,109 posts)No organization willfully participating in a campaign to destroy Israel can be taken seriously WRT its concerns about a 2 state solution. Their role in collaborating with the extreme 3rd world right in order to portray Israel as a pariah state unworthy of existing shows that their support for a genuine 2 state solution is a ruse.
Then again, why should anyone sane expect Europe to be any different today than it was 70 years ago?
Some hate never dies. The only difference today is that the cowards are too embarrassed to admit openly what they advocated 70 years ago.
It's a shame. Their irrational hate will eventually lead to their demise. As Walter Russell Mead just wrote:
Not to compare them to Hitler, but Palestinians and Arabs under the delusion that “the Jews” are responsible for American policy in the Middle East have squandered tens of millions of dollars and wasted decades in foolish strategies to change American opinion based on this grotesque misconception of American realities. Europeans under that same delusion fail to grasp how American policy works, what its priorities and limits are, and where there is room for friendly outsiders to intervene with effect.
Jew haters don’t understand how the world works; anti-Semitism is both a cause and a consequence of a basic failure to comprehend the way pluralistic and liberal societies behave. As a result, nations and political establishments warped by this hatred tend to make one dumb decision after another — starting at shadows, warding off imaginary dangers, misunderstanding the nature of the problems they face.
Via Meadia‘s fight against anti-Semitism isn’t just about solidarity with threatened or scapegoated Jews. It is also about the fight for lucidity, liberalism and sound social and international policy. Where Jew hatred flourishes, no freedom is safe and no country is strong. Anti-Semitism is not just a moral obscenity; it is the road to intellectual and political ruin. At Via Meadia we will do what we can to dissuade people from venturing down this blindest of alleys.
It's amazing how history keeps repeating itself.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)I'm pretty sure that the EU have the standing required to criticise Israel. Which they do. I totally agree with what they're saying in the OP, though it appears you don't.
What do you support? You've made comments several times where you've appeared to have confused the West Bank as being part of Israel, and you appear to be very hostile to any suggestion of a two-state solution. I'd be curious to know what exactly it is you do support when it comes to this conflict...
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)I have said before -- and I reiterate -- that I am foursquare in favour of the two-state solution (three state if Hamas and PA can't mend their fences). But, I don't agree on the following
-- that the Green-line has any meaning when it comes to defining the borders of a Palestinian State. The Green-line is simply where Arab armies laid down their weapons after their failed invasion of '67. It has no more to do with the Palestinians than the Mason-Dixon line. The borders of the Palestinian state will be whatever they can negotiate and frankly, they don't have a lot to bring to the table.
-- the capitol of the Pal State will ever be Jerusalem. Simply won't happen
-- I do agree with right of return within the future boundaries of the Pal State. Right of Return to Israel simply won't happen
The PA have one bargaining chip -- complete cessation of all forms of hostilities. Until they agree to that, the occupation will continue, the settlements will expand until, one day, they might have nothing left to bargain for. In the mean time, now that terror from the West Bank has nearly been eliminated, Palestinians will suffer far more than Israelis from the continuation of the stalemate.
Eventually, everyday Palestinians will recognize this, eject their thugocracy and call for peace and settlement. I hope on that day, the new Pal State and Israel will work together for prosperity.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)Thanks for laying it all out there.
Yr idea of a 'state' for the Palestinians is whatever Israel deigns to give them and Israel gets to keep whatever it decides for Israel.
Here's a question. If you don't recognise the Green Line, then how exactly do you know where Israel ends and the West Bank begins? The Green Line actually means something, just like when the EU criticises Israel, it actually carries some weight. Trying to compare Europe to a Europe overrun by Nazi Germany isn't a very effective debate tactic when trying to make people realise how wrong and evil it is for the EU to dare criticise Israel over settlements and treatment of Palestinians...
shira
(30,109 posts)This one from you is priceless:
Yr idea of a 'state' for the Palestinians is whatever Israel deigns to give them and Israel gets to keep whatever it decides for Israel.
Coming from someone like yourself who is for a solution based on what the PA deigns to be just and fair, that quote is hilarious.
In addition, you're the one in support of a 1-state solution. So it's funny you're trying your best to find opponents who are also for one state so that you can scold them later for such a view:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=328071&mesg_id=330072
As far as I can tell, you're for 2 states but it certainly seems you wouldn't mind if that turned into 1 state. That's the hardline PA view. Do you disagree with anything they propose WRT a 2 state solution?
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)I've gone through this so many times before that I now think you deliberately pretend to misunderstand what I say my own views are...
I'm a supporter of a two-state solution. I always have been. So why don't you quit it with all the 'as far as I can tell' when it comes to my views. If people reading make the assumption that yr always totally wrong when you say what I think, they'll get it right 100% of the time...
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)You said...
"Yr idea of a 'state' for the Palestinians is whatever Israel deigns to give them and Israel gets to keep whatever it decides for Israel. "
That is pretty much the opposite of what I said. Either you are deliberately pretending or not actually able to understand MY views.
What I said was, that the Pal State will be whatever the Israeli and Palestinian governments are able to negotiate. All international agreements not enforced by force of arms are the result of negotiation and I believe that for there to be lasting peace, the border has to be the result of a negotiated compromise. Why are you against negotiation and compromise -- are not those values the keystone of progressive thought?
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)You made a point of saying negotiations where the Palestinians have very little to bring to the table in a post chockablock about everything that the Palestinians aren't going to get in your opinion, and how all the onus is one them when it comes to ending the conflict.
Seeing you didn't reply to the post where I asked you a question, is it possible for you to do it now? Here it is again:
Here's a question. If you don't recognise the Green Line, then how exactly do you know where Israel ends and the West Bank begins? The Green Line actually means something, just like when the EU criticises Israel, it actually carries some weight. Trying to compare Europe to a Europe overrun by Nazi Germany isn't a very effective debate tactic when trying to make people realise how wrong and evil it is for the EU to dare criticise Israel over settlements and treatment of Palestinians...
shira
(30,109 posts)...with Israel? You say you're for the end of the conflict. What does that mean?
Does that mean there should be no negotiations, Israel should agree to the Saudi Initiative, and trust that its neighbors will call off the dogs?
What kind of peace do you envision if Israel were to end the occupation tomorrow? What would Israel have to negotiate with after that? RoR would still be an issue.
What does this 2 state peace deal look like in your opinion? Israel agreed to peace with Egypt and now that the MB is taking over, that seems to be falling apart. Is that your notion of peace b/w Israel and Hamas, for example? Peace on paper, not in reality?
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)It seems a mugs game to me. You've already posted many times what my views supposedly are, even to the point of arguing with a supporter of Israel who told you you were wrong, so why fire off those multiple 'questions' and pretend you actually want answers?
Here's an idea. How about *you* answer those questions yrself? That should keep you going for a while...
shira
(30,109 posts)Thanks.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)I don't know why the rest of us just don't pack up our stuff and move to H&M* and just leave you here to tell us what we think and what our opinions on the conflict are. Or you could just read what I actually said to you. That'd be a vast improvement on what yr doing now...
* For those like Shira who have never posted anywhere other than in I/P, that's the Help & Meta forum. Each week there's a different theme, depending on which controversial DUer has come to the attention of the mob, and the rest of us onlookers sit and watch them pull each other apart. *sigh* I remember when the I/P forum used to be like that...
shira
(30,109 posts)You say you're for 2 states, but also for 1 state if that happens. That's the PA position. Two states with the objective being that RoR will make Israel into yet another Palestinian state. Essentially 3 Palestinian states (Gaza, the WB, and Israel) which may as well be one since Israel as it is now would cease to exist.
Additionally, you are politically closer to anti-zionists (like the ISM) who are against 2 states than you are with PeaceNow or even J-Street. I can only imagine they don't bash Israel enough to your liking, and that's why you prefer those who try their best to delegitimize Israel. PeaceNow doesn't demonize Israel enough. J-Street can do better too...
How is it possible that a genuine 2-stater, as you claim to be, is more comfortable around 1-state anti-zionists rather than zionists for 2 states?
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)Yet again, another post from you that's completely incorrect when it comes to what I think. You don't know, and have repeatedly displayed that you don't care, what my views are. So to arrive to find a post from you completely getting it so very wrong when it comes to my views on the conflict and what my politics are is no surprise...
Oh, and you don't know what yr talking about when it comes to what I think of J-Street, Peace Now and the ISM, and seeing as how you seem to be trying to focus on me rather than what this thread was about, I won't waste my time explaining it to someone who will ignore what I say my own thoughts are...
shira
(30,109 posts)For example, in previous debates with others you refused to offer better alternatives WRT Israeli defense against rockets or suicide bombers.
You shouldn't get all pissy when your views are put to the test. If you're at all interested in discussion forums, you should consider actually discussing something w/o obfuscating or deflecting.
It's too transparent when you deflect and/or obfuscate when called out on something or questioned directly.
If you're right, and it's obvious you think you are, you shouldn't have any trouble defending your POV.
Violet_Crumble
(35,955 posts)I've explained more than several times why it's pointless to answer multiple 'questions' fired at me by someone who invents what my opinions are, even to the extent of arguing when corrected on them by me and others.
I gave you a lot of chances back at DU to do what some other pro-Israeli posters do, and that is engage in genuine conversation where my opinions are listened to and I don't end up with them saying 'in other words, you love Hamas! I knew it!' when I tell them I detest Hamas. The others that I have constructive and generally friendly discussions with also don't make broadbrush insulting attacks on pro-Palestinians. That's the difference between them and you. If you really want to get the answers to yr questions, go back through the archives. I've addressed all those questions at one time or another in discussions with others in the forum..
Response to Purveyor (Original post)
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jimmie
(318 posts)Mosques' advice: 'don't report abusive husbands'
Six out of ten mosques in Sweden gave women advice about how to deal with spousal abuse and polygamy that contradicted Swedish law, a media investigation has revealed.
The women then asked leaders at the mosques for advice about how to address issues such as polygamy, assault and non-consensual sex.
Six out of the ten mosques visited by the women, who had also claimed that their husbands had multiple wives, told them that they should nevertheless agree to have sex with their husbands even if they didn't want to.
http://www.thelocal.se/40866/20120516/
