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theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 12:04 AM Aug 2013

Can we discuss the issue of boycotts of states?

I'm still torn on the matter of the Olympic boycott (purely from the standpoint of what would be the most effective way to protest) but that's not the type of boycott I want to discuss in this thread.
For years I've advocated boycotting states that pass gay-hating legislation and instead rewarding those which have shown support for equality. It's been quite some time since I actually brought up the subject, because the last time I did (on GD) I was literally ripped up one side and down the other as if I were a raw steak among a pack of pit bulls. I was going to direct folks to the thread in question but it appears the advance search feature is overloaded at the moment. Anyway...
My partner and I have decided, after 23 years together, to marry. I guess she's had long enough time to change her mind. <grin> We'll be travelling to New Hampshire next year, where we plan to also spend time exploring the state and its surrounds, for we may wish to also retire there. We had hoped to retire to Ohio to be close to family, but Ohio's gay-hating laws make that simply impossible.
Being frugal in preparation for retirement, we have for years deprived ourselves of vacations and mutually agreed that when the time came we would only spend our money in a state that was GLBT-friendly. When we have free time we take leisurely drives to Maryland (very GLBT-friendly) but for our very-belated honeymoon we'd like to visit New England.
I'd like to know if any of you here boycott states hostile to its GLBT citizens and if you don't, why? I believe in economically supporting our allies and I'd rather set my hair on fire than spend a penny of vacation money in some gay-hating state, many of which are considered traditional vacation spots.
I have to tell you honestly, it's really hard for me to reconcile asking young people to boycott the Moscow Olympics if we in the GLBT community aren't willing to boycott right here at home.

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Can we discuss the issue of boycotts of states? (Original Post) theHandpuppet Aug 2013 OP
Hmm... Fearless Aug 2013 #1
We've also done the company boycott theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #3
Agreed about the company part Fearless Aug 2013 #5
I'm sure there are those who felt the same way... theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #8
I agree, we must do something. Fearless Aug 2013 #10
And therein lies the question theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #12
If it were me, I'd pack as many LGBTers into Moscow for the Games Fearless Aug 2013 #15
Well.... theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #21
I think the public should be involved too Fearless Aug 2013 #23
I don't think there were any black folk driving those buses. MADem Aug 2013 #18
There were always people opposed to the boycotts theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #22
Boycotts Behind the Aegis Aug 2013 #2
If there are no consequences to be paid... theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #6
I agree with your overall sentiment. Behind the Aegis Aug 2013 #17
agree..... madrchsod Aug 2013 #4
NH is a Stand Your Ground state, however cprise Aug 2013 #7
Well, we really wanted to retire to Vermont... theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #9
A list... Fearless Aug 2013 #11
Damn theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #13
There are some places that are cheaper than others. Fearless Aug 2013 #14
I've been checking Vermont real estate prices for quite some time theHandpuppet Aug 2013 #20
No, Maine isn't cprise Aug 2013 #16
Real estate in Massachusetts is very expensive...but... MADem Aug 2013 #19

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
1. Hmm...
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 12:31 AM
Aug 2013

I tend to boycott companies myself. I don't shop at WalMart for instance. That said, I've lived in the bluest parts of New England myself and generally don't spend that much money or effort on vacations. Generally I just take a nice day at the beach or a weekend camping, etc. All of which I do generally within New England. It's not particularly a conscious decision though, regarding LGBT rights. The idea of boycotting states (or nations) leaves me wary. I can understand boycotting or supporting companies (like JCP and Oreo parent Nabisco perhaps). This hits or helps them directly where they hurt most. Their bottom lines. But, I don't see direct impact on states if some of us don't live or spend money there. Not as much. Rather I think Harvey Milk's example is more important. Make sure that every bigot knows a LGBTer. That's how, I think we best make changes on the state, local, familial, and national/international levels. IMHO of course.

Then again, I wouldn't personally want to live in many of these places (my apologies to our DUers in red areas). On a personal note, I don't let being gay limit my options. I make sure that I can use it to my advantage. And if it came to retirement, personally I'd live in as gay-friendly a place as possible. There are so many difficulties of age, and sexual orientation shouldn't be one of them. Again IMHO.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
3. We've also done the company boycott
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 12:52 AM
Aug 2013

Not only against companies hostile to GLBTs but to those connected with sweatshops or unfair labor practices.
Conversely, we have always felt that by supporting GLBT-friendly states economically, we show how being GLBT can be good for business. If nothing else, demonstrate how policies in their state can affect the bottom line. On a personal level, that may mean spending vacations only in gay-friendly states. Then there's influencing your company/organization to hold meetings or conventions likewise. Whatever it takes to steer money towards states that support US.

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
5. Agreed about the company part
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:03 AM
Aug 2013

My only fear about states and nations is the disservice it may do to those who live there. I'm not sure. It feels like turning our backs on them.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
8. I'm sure there are those who felt the same way...
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:16 AM
Aug 2013

... about the Montgomery bus boycott. But at some point you have to do whatever it takes, even if that path may be painful in the short term. I don't see how we can benefit our GLBT brothers and sisters elsewhere by doing nothing, especially if we're not willing to inconvenience ourselves right here at home.

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
10. I agree, we must do something.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:22 AM
Aug 2013

And we must do something that is effective. By all ethical means necessary.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
12. And therein lies the question
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:30 AM
Aug 2013

What would be the most effective way to protest? That's where I'm torn. I've always favored economic boycotts, but the Russians wouldn't be affected in the slightest if we were no-shows. Then it becomes a political protest, effective for maybe two weeks, and causing some resentment here at home, which could turn out to be counterproductive. I don't know... I wish I was a wiser person. These are the times I wish we had a leader the likes of a King or Gandhi to show us the way.

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
15. If it were me, I'd pack as many LGBTers into Moscow for the Games
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 02:00 AM
Aug 2013

Out and proud AND RESPECTFUL. Peaceful and about their own business, but definitely out. Let the world see Russia's response live on television. Let every athlete support their brothers and sisters and show that support visually and vocally. And let Russia have to decide whether or not to enforce the law. And if they choose not to, it gives hope to the millions of Russian LGBTers. If they do, then we pack their jails for 14 days and make it an international incident. I bet even some fundies here would condemn Russia for doing it. Lol! Most of all we just need to show solidarity for Russian LGBTers. We need to use our position to guide and to shine a light on the inequalities. But, it is Russian law, and Russians need to change it. We can't fight their fight for them, we can only be there to support. It would be a political protest. But it is a highly political law we are looking to change as well.

If we want to provide long lasting help, LGBT Russian groups will need money. They will need a platform to be heard. The internet will likely be a big player in this fight. If you really want to hit them hard, get a gay football player on the Russian national team. If you really want to hit them hard, film the arrests, put them online. Show the world. Most of all, Russian LGBTers need to find allies in their nation. They need to be out to their families. They cannot hide. Moscow is using this issue as a way to turn it's citizens against a "common enemy", it's a power grab by Putin basically. If they fight amongst themselves they pay less attention to him. Why now does he bring this up? What is his motivation? Etc.

We do have people like King and Gandhi, inside each and every LGBTer who knows that it's wrong to hate and wants to do something about it.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
21. Well....
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 07:24 AM
Aug 2013

Isn't it just a bit too easy for us to ask these young athletes to offer themselves up as sacrificial lambs? We won't be there to face god knows what -- possible arrests, beatings, etc. And when the Olympics is over, what then? If we're not willing to lead by example here at home how can we ask it of others thousands of miles away? Hell, we can't even organize a boycott on DU because too many people don't want to be inconvenienced or give up their vacations to places like Florida or South Carolina. I was shocked that there were people on DU who were apparently unwilling to give up Big Macs for a few days during the labor strike this week.
I don't know... your scenarios certainly have merit but so does an outright boycott of the Olympics. I don't think the latter will happen so I guess we'll have to see how the situation develops in Moscow.

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
23. I think the public should be involved too
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 11:48 AM
Aug 2013

Those who go to see the games should be a pray of it as well. Lets not limited it to just athletes.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
18. I don't think there were any black folk driving those buses.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 04:10 AM
Aug 2013

The black community was saying to the bus company "You take our money, you'd better treat us equally, otherwise, we're keeping our money to help our friends with cars buy gas, or pooling our dimes to take a cab every now and again."

I think the only angst that occurred as a result of that boycott was if your feet were hurting, your ride didn't turn up, and/or you were driving those Hush Puppies on your feet several miles home in hot or rainy weather.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
22. There were always people opposed to the boycotts
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 07:31 AM
Aug 2013

Last edited Fri Aug 2, 2013, 11:49 AM - Edit history (1)

Afraid to lose jobs, business, etc. They were a minority but fortunately the majority were willing to put everything on the line for justice and equality. That's the only way you win. Those boycotters also had one element sorely lacking in the LGBT rights movement -- a dynamic, charismatic leader who not only captured the hearts of the people but the attention of the media, which brought the scrutiny of the whole world upon the segregated Southland.

Behind the Aegis

(53,921 posts)
2. Boycotts
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 12:39 AM
Aug 2013

First, and foremost, congratulations on your upcoming nuptials. I told my partner about the case being launched in Oklahoma (where we live), actually two cases, calling for marriage equality, and said, "so what do you think?" His response, "you want to sue?" LOL!

To me boycotts of states (or nations) is a tricky thing. One can usually find the same thing or something similar to boycott in other states, so when it is right to boycott? It really comes down to individuals and the community response. If we can coordinate something that really hits 'them' where they hurt, the pocketbook, then it is worth it. Though, on a personal level, boycotting states on your own has its own sense of accomplishment which can't be denied.

Currently, I don't boycott any state. One, we can't afford to travel; and two, if we could, we'd jump at the chance to get a breather from Oklahoma. I, like the rest of my immediate family, all live in very anti-gay states. Boycotting our own state is akin to cutting your nose off despite your face. Also, it is important to consider that even though a state can be a homophobic cesspool, there may be some very gay-friendly places contained therein, and in effect, by boycotting an entire state, we are also boycotting our own. The best example of this is Louisiana, which is as a state is quite hostile to gay people, but New Orleans, is VERY gay friendly and very gay positive, though it has its own issues too. Personally, when I see a state completely going over the top to be anti-gay (like Tennessee is doing with Muslims), then I think a state-wide boycott is warranted. When the boycott of Colorado took place, I know I helped pull several conferences from the state. They lost millions of dollars just with the conferences I helped affect. The gay community mobilized quite well. It doesn't seem to be that way anymore, sadly.

Business I will boycott, and do quite often. For me, it is easier to do successfully, but they can also have backlashes as well. Also, I understand when some don't want to boycott. That's fine, as long as my equality is not being made a joke or dismissed as inconsequential or "hey, just chill on the sex" nonsense. If a boycott of a state is well-organized, then I can see joining in, but when it is a haphazard type of thing, then it really is ineffective and can make us look silly. This is when our national organizations need to get off their lazy asses and do something!

The Olympics should never be boycotted over politics. That isn't what they are all about. However, the recent turn of events in Russia has made me consider backing a general boycott of the Olympics...if and only if, the reason is for the threats made against gay people coming to the games. I don't want our rights used because the US is mad at Russia for the Snowden incident. That's politics! I can understand why many wanted to boycott the games when the homophobic law was announced. I didn't agree, because that was internal politics. BUT, when gangs of skinheads are roving the streets unchecked, and unhindered by the police and are beating the shit out of gay people, I started to get worried. Then that pig of a Russian lawmaker came out and all but threatened every gay athlete and visitor to the games; my attitude toward a boycott changed. This was no longer about a shitty, anti-gay progrom, this was about the actual safety and security of any and every gay person who is going to that country to participate in the games. The IOC should have immediately involved itself! That said, if they (anyone) still wish to go, I hope they will at least protest by wearing something that says, "we know about your homophobic bullshit law and we are here to tell you to rightly and quickly, FUCK OFF!" My personal preference, as indicated in other threads, is for GLBTA athletes and spectators to wear the armbands that gay/bi men had to wear (pink triangles, like my avatar) or black ones which were worn by lesbians and dissidents. I don't make light of the Holocaust. I don't like when others use Holocaust imagery to try to make a cheap political point (or an anti-Semitic one). But, IMO, this rises to the level of the need to say "Godwin be damned" and put on the armbands.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
6. If there are no consequences to be paid...
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:09 AM
Aug 2013

... then too many gay-oppressing states will, I fear, find little motivation to make changes. On the other hand, in some states such as Maryland, there has arisen a whole new market for businesses that can't wait to cater to GLBTs for weddings, travel, etc.
Right now my partner and I are pretty well stuck in WV, which is at least better than being across the border in Virginia (I could tell you some hair-raising stories, believe me!) but still close enough to Maryland so we can shop and spend a little money there. D. C. is close but expensive and there have been a rash of violent attacks against transgenders there, which is scary.
Perhaps it's not so much a matter of boycotting but making different, positive choices.
And thanks for your kind words about our upcoming wedding. I'm a mighty lucky person to have spent these years with such a wonderful woman. Now if we can only find a jeweler around here who can provide us with some celtic wedding rings without freaking out! Some folks have no idea what it's like to be GLBT in the back of beyond.

Behind the Aegis

(53,921 posts)
17. I agree with your overall sentiment.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 02:35 AM
Aug 2013

However, a boycott needs to be a structured event, not something that is "willy-nilly." As it stands now, almost half of our states would be under boycott. I think it is great when conferences, meetings, trainings, and other events can be pushed out of anti-gay states into pro-gay equality states. The problem is that our national organizations are falling flat on their faces when it comes to boycotts.

BTW, I have lived in Virginia, so I am aware of the issues there, though that was in the mid-80s when I was in HS. It is one of the states I keep an eye on. And DC, hell, let's be honest, that can be scary for anyone at this point! Since we are in Oklahoma, we don't have many neighboring states that differ from our own in relations to GLBT issues.

I know how you feel about being lucky, my partner and I have been together for almost 12 years and I found him right here in Oklahoma! It is such a comfort to have someone in your life. Oh, and I know about the "back of beyond", I am in Oklahoma after all. Gay Jew...yeah, lots of fun! LOL!

Oh, and I can't say it will be a success, but you can pop over to Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality and see if anyone there might know of a distributor for Celtic wedding rings. It is worth a spin!

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
4. agree.....
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 12:53 AM
Aug 2013

i know i won't live long enough to see the gay community afforded the same state rights as hetrosexual couples. it was`t all that long ago that mixed race couples were not recognized in certain states. i hope my children and my granddaughter will wonder why anyone would have cared. i have friend who died of aids because of the life style he was basically forced to lead and other who married but eventually divorced and finally found happiness with a man who loves him.

i agree with your last sentence. it would be hypocritical to boycott russia when people in the usa won`t boycott here.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
7. NH is a Stand Your Ground state, however
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:10 AM
Aug 2013

Which is why I avoid it.

A word to the wise.

Best wishes to you with your wedding day and your life together.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
9. Well, we really wanted to retire to Vermont...
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:18 AM
Aug 2013

But unless we win the lottery soon, there's no way in hell we could afford it. Real estate prices there are WAY beyond our means. Ouch!

How about Maine? Is it also a SYG state?

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
11. A list...
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:23 AM
Aug 2013

Alabama,[15] Alaska,[16] Arizona,[17] California,[18][19][20] Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa,[21] Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana,[17] Maine, Massachusetts (though the term is used very loosely there),[22] Michigan,[17] Mississippi, Missouri,[23] Montana,[17] New Hampshire,[17] North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma,[17] Pennsylvania,[24] Rhode Island,[25] South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee,[17] Texas,[26] Utah,[27] West Virginia,[17] Wisconsin[28] and Wyoming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

EDIT TO ADD: Not all SYG laws are made the same though... for instance Massachusetts:

Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
14. There are some places that are cheaper than others.
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 01:48 AM
Aug 2013

If you do have your heart set on it, there are deals out there. Also smaller towns tend to be cheaper. And it's Vermont, so generally you'll be fine politically.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
20. I've been checking Vermont real estate prices for quite some time
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 06:41 AM
Aug 2013

And in places all around the state, especially small towns. It's just too expensive, unless we'd like to settle down in an outhouse. But then we live in WV, where real estate is dirt cheap. I think it's skewed our view of how much the rest of the world pays for housing.

cprise

(8,445 posts)
16. No, Maine isn't
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 02:07 AM
Aug 2013

Here is a map from last year:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/stand-your-ground-map

The NH House voted to repeal SYG this year, but the repeal was defeated in the Senate.

From my perspective, SYG allows a person to antagonize someone and if the target does anything whatsoever aside from hiding or running away, the antagonist is free to interpret that as a threat and kill their target without fear of a murder conviction. It is a law that rewards murderers for their ability to successfully kill someone, as the victim's right to stand their ground is effectively voided when they die (there is nothing explicit about this... its just the way the SYG concept manifests in the legal system).

MADem

(135,425 posts)
19. Real estate in Massachusetts is very expensive...but...
Fri Aug 2, 2013, 04:18 AM
Aug 2013

...it's a bit cheaper in western MA. Maybe you can find something to your liking near the VT border, say, Greenfield or North Adams....

Do a little googling and reading--you might find something that suits you there. Berkshire County is delightful if you like country living.

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