Anyone else getting tired of the adulation of Pope Francis?

[knowledgeispwr]

Yes, Pope Francis has said some good things about poverty, but his church remains staunchly anti-gay and anti-women in doctrine and in practice. This is not to say, of course, that all Catholics are anti-gay and anti-women; their church most certainly is though.

One would think that the pope has transformed (or is transforming) the church into a progressive organization to hear the praise lavished on him. I don't get it!

[patricia92243]

1. Have to crawl before you walk. n/t

[Siwsan]

2. No leader of any organization will ever be 100% to 100% of the people.

He is a VAST improvement over the past two, that's for sure. I was not a fan of JP2 - no one will ever convince me he wasn't 100% up to speed on what was going on concerning the molestations. And, he promoted and protected offenders and protectors of offenders. Benedict? I mean, what the heck did he accomplish? Nothing hits my radar. At least this one, while not really bending on the RC church doctrine re: women, gays, etc., he also does not condemn. I've never heard of a Pope who has opened his heart to so many groups other Popes have shunned and who has taken such strong social stands. He is not a pomp and circumstance kind of show pope - he actually seems to practice the charity he preaches.

[djean111]

3. I just skip the Francis threads.

And, as an atheist, I have no interest in being invited to work with the Organization that hides pedophiles and is responsible for the atrocities in Ireland. That's the tip of the iceberg. I certainly do not feel all warm and fuzzy and honored or whatever.
I find it weird that people who believe in a god need to have vast organizations, really.

[Thinkingabout]

26. This is a time you need to live and let live, I am not jumping up and down for or against your

Beliefs, if you expect respect then you need to give some also. On an organization allowing atrocites, it happens everywhere, in my world your world, I don't like to hear about abuse but being Catholic does not cause abuse of this type, the problem is with the abuser.

[PeaceNikki]

4. HUGELY sick of it. This portion of this piece really nailed it for me:

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/27/sorry_pope_francis_reproductive_justice_and_lgbtq_rights_are_economic_issues_too/

"But as the pope’s explicit and specific critique of capitalism’s excesses shows, it is incredibly necessary to talk about these things. Because widespread discrimination against LGBTQ people — which people like Rick Santorum and others defend as a matter of “faith” — results in widespread violence, disproportionate income inequality, job discrimination and other injustices that the pope nominally opposes.

It’s great that the pope thinks, for example, that American Catholics should be less judgmental when it comes to their gay neighbors, but he also needs to take a position endorsing full legal equality, pay equity and other basic rights for all LGTBQ people. Because LGBTQ people don’t need Catholics to be their friends, they need them to stop actively challenging their rights in state legislatures and at the federal level."

[knowledgeispwr]

6. Good piece.

I think sometimes people miss that social justice and equality (for women, LGBT, ethnic minorities, etc.) are economic issues!

[PeaceNikki]

8. This is a good one, too.

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/20/best_pope_ever_still_pretty_awful/

"In the same interview in which the pope urged Catholics to move away from the “obsession” with reproductive healthcare and gay rights to create a more inclusive, welcoming church, he also said, “The teaching of the church, for that matter [of abortion, contraception and gay marriage], is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”

But to “not talk about these issues all the time,” for the pope, means silence from the single most powerful Catholic voice in the face of American lawmakers who, in their thirst to criminalize abortion and deny women access to birth control, shutter clinics that provide cancer screenings, pap smears and other basic healthcare for low-income women. It means saying nothing while Timothy Dolan, the top church official in the United States, calls for mass action from American Catholics to oppose basic legal equality for gays and lesbians.

There is also the matter of Francis’ deeply conservative record during his time as a cardinal in Argentina, a period during which he called gay marriage a threat to the “survival of the family” and called gay parenting “discrimination against children.”

But despite all this, the pope’s recent remarks have garnered him a lot of progressive cheering; earlier this week, MSNBC’s Chris Hayes dubbed him the “best pope ever.” Jon Stewart thinks the pope is “totes chill,” and he has even gotten the Sarah Silverman stamp of approval.

But the praise feels undeserved. Francis may be better than the old popes, but what does that actually make him? A religious leader who has said some great things about equality and acceptance — but who appears quite content to leave the actual, structural barriers to achieving those goals firmly in place."

This guy has a great PR team.

[theHandpuppet]

17. And that's all it is... PR

While Pope Francis does the smiley photo ops, this is what his minions are doing behind the scenes: http://www.usccb.org/ I keep this site bookmarked because that's where the truth really lies. Flagrantly insulting screeds against gays, transgendered men and women, marriage equality (and should you need one, a prayer to preserve "traditional marriage&quot , vows to fight reproduction rights, ENDA, the HHS mandate, the ACLU et al, rebuffing the UN's inquiry with regard to child rape and abuse. Yes, that's what's REALLY going on and NOTHING with regards to social policies has changed... it's full steam ahead and shove Francis in front of another camera so folks won't question whether or not this is anything beyond making bigotry more palatable. Better yet, talk about income disparity and poverty as if oppression, be it the global oppression of women or GLBTs, is somehow divorced from the root causes of poverty and misery around the world. There was one influential group within the RCC that was championing these issues -- the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, the progressive nuns’ organization. But Francis himself censured them and has placed them under male authority for espousing “radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith” (quote from the Vatican). Those "themes" included gay rights and full equality for women.
Well, folks can't have it both ways. Either Francis is the head of the church or he's not. Either he has influence over the bishops or he doesn't and if it's the latter, then all the nice speeches in the world don't add up to squat. He's just a figurehead. (Not that he has made any speeches in support of marriage equality, full equality for women, reproduction rights, et al. but some folks can either pretend he has or remind us he drives an old car.)
Am I sick and tired of the half dozen or so rah-rah Pope PR threads (and at times it's much more the "so&quot posted every day to GD? You're damn right I am. But I have learned one very valuable lesson -- there are some "progressives" around whose support for the equality of women and GLBTs doesn't run nearly as deep as we'd like to think.

[knowledgeispwr]

20. I agree!

Thanks for sharing that site. Of course it has the same-old-same-old about "marriage and family" and "religious liberty" to oppose rights of women and LGBT people. Honestly, Pope Francis's "nice speeches" seem to me to be more about "Let's not talk about certain 'social' issues as much". That's not a change in position; it's just a PR change.

As you and others have pointed out 'social' issues like equality directly relate to economic fairness and justice.

[Proud Public Servant]

5. Francis is a useful tool

He's calling more media attention -- and more favorable media attention -- to messages about inequality and the failure of Reaganite capitalism than and politician, public intellectual, or even movement could. He's reaching people with that message who never would have been reached by a Warren, a Krugman, or OWS. And he's making his detractors look bad because, you know, they're disagreeing with the Pope about the central message of Christianity.

You don't have to like the Church -- as a very lapsed Catholic, I can't abide it -- to see than Francis is an absolute gift to our team; he's done more to shift the public discussion on economics than anyone since the early days of Occupy -- and the more that rhetoric shifts, the more we win.

[knowledgeispwr]

9. I definitely agree he is useful for a shift in economic discussions...

and he is preferable to the previous pope and other choices that were in the running this last time. So I think we basically agree. I don't have any qualms about seeing Francis as useful in general on economic rhetoric.

On the other hand, I just think that some are making him out to be more than he is and is able to do. I don't expect him to be able to shift church doctrine on women's rights and LGBT rights. Additionally, we still don't see the church turning over pedophiles to the authorities. For those reasons, I think it is fair for people to criticize the church for those continued failings.

Perhaps one reason this pope has received such praise is because the bar is set so low: "The Pope hasn't said outright horrible things about gays and women! (although he maintains church doctrine and isn't recommending changes) Hurray!"

[Proud Public Servant]

10. I certainly agree with that

and, as I said, I certainly have no interest in defending the Church -- especially on gender or sexual orientation issues. But, looked at realistically, it's a lot easier for the Pope to shift the emphasis in Church pronouncements (from anti-gay and anti-abortion back to the central message of Jesus) than it is for him to overthrow Church doctrine. Think of how long it took Obama to end Don't Ask Don't Tell -- and that was a far easier lift that reversing centuries of Church dogma. I think an uncritical embrace of Francis is premature, given the nature of the institution he heads; at the same time, though, I think writing him off because of the nature of the institution he heads is also premature. Wait and see, with very cautious optimism, seems the best posture.

[walkingman]

7. It's all rhetoric

When I see some changes in doctrine then I might possible the church is about something more than control but these latest news flashes are merely a marketing plan to try and keep those abandoning the church from getting totally fed up with the "flat earth" society.

I will admit it is refreshing to her something from a religious leaders lips other than the usual mambo-jumbo.

[NCLefty]

11. That church takes a very long time to change things, and like it or not

they have a shit-ton of followers. It DOES matter which direction they're going in.

These may be barely-perceptible baby steps, but I'm cautiously optimistic that they will at least stop the hate we've had for so long. That's not a bad thing.

As for his ongoing adulation, treat it like Miley/Bieber and change the channel :p

[theHandpuppet]

12. Yes.

Thoroughly fed up and disgusted.

[Stevenmarc]

13. He's the best PR Pope in ages

But he's no John XXIII.

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. There is a strain of the RC hierarchy that has moved over from "sin" to "mental illness"....

...when discussing homosexuality.

This is not new, ( though it is relatively recent) and precedes the new pope. The implication of the "mental illness" model is that LGBTs are still inferior, undeserving of equal rights and basically aberrant.

They have a solution: a version of Christian reparative therapy. They have trained "therapists" that do this. It's very close to ... basically a ripoff of... the protestant version of same. But w. RC religious rhetoric and lingo.

I have a relative who's a proponent of this stuff. It's all the rage inside the church.

New papa seems to be one of these. So... yes. I'm tired of the adulation.

[theHandpuppet]

15. Are you referring to this group?

http://couragerc.net/

[Smarmie Doofus]

18. I think so... but that group's been around for a loooong time.

Aforementioned relative was here... i.e. in this state... a few mos. ago and reported ( in disturbing detail) on this new-found enthusiasm.

On cross examination, it develops that he's done a lot of VERY RECENT reading on the topic ( unusual for heteros) . For example he knew who Dr. Socarrides is, and quoted him. ( OTOH, didn't appear to know that Soccarides' son is gay , politically active, and repudiates Soccarides the elder. So there's some unevenness in said relative's basic fund of knowledge. It's like they put him thru some sort of cram-course.) He knew the names of other psychs who had worked in the field on this topic ( sexual orientation) and appeared to be at least cursorily familiar w. their findings.

He say's he's learning about this stuff so that he can "defend the position of the church." Abortion used to be his big "thing"... and it still is. I don't understand the logical (or even theological) connection but in his mind ( and in the mind of the church) they're related. He mentioned some groups and conferences he attended and church affiliated "therapists" whom he knew personally, which led me to believe this a new big push inside the church. ( probably involving Francis... though perhaps not.)

I observed that the church... if it wanted to establish credibility w. lgbts,( you know, so it can "cure" them; apparently ... whereas the church used to be the self-appointed arbiter of morality and ethics.... it is now in charge of "sick bay".) should first confess its guilt for having for centuries maligned lgbts as sinners and abjectly beg forgiveness. Not to mentioned lynching, torture, murders, etc. It's the only decent thing to do as the church has now officially acknowledged that sexual orientation is unrelated to morality.

Anyway... I read a lot about this stuff in the 70s and eighties and was not interested in re-explaining the history of the world to someone who's visiting from another planet... esp as a tourist.

So I politely and diplomatically packed this in-law off and sent him back to the midwest.

[Zorra]

16. I believe he may be better than Bush.

[marym625]

28. HA ha

[Plantaganet]

19. Only in this group!

[Plantaganet]

21. Actually -

- just read a great article about this...

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116056/progressives-who-love-pope-francis-are-abandoning-women-and-gay-rights

Pretty much sums it up. Astonishing to see so many people on a "progressive" website fawn over this guy.

[NCLefty]

22. Well so much for that...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/29/pope-francis-gay-adoption_n_4516304.html

Pope Francis reportedly was "shocked" by a bill that would allow gay couples to adopt children in Malta.

Maltese Bishop Charles Scicluna told the Times Of Malta that he spoke with Pope Francis about the bill and the pope encouraged him to speak out against it.

Best reply:

"We love you but don't come near the kids" is not a mixed message at all.

It's an insult.

[Plantaganet]

23. You're just mean.

Pope Francis is indescribably awesome!

[knowledgeispwr]

24. LOL

Good one!

[NCLefty]

29. If you're not an unwanted child that's prevented from being adopted by a gay couple, I'm sure he is.

[knowledgeispwr]

25. "I don't hate everyone and treat everyone with respect...

...but gays are in the same group as people who perform bestiality and terrorists".

Different lyrics, same melody.

It is most definitely an insult. As I said on some other thread, insults and ugliness can be wrapped up in supposedly "neutral" and "tolerant" speech.

[marym625]

27. Good thread

I agree to an extent. The best part of what Pope Francis is doing is causing discussion. Unlike the majority of outspoken religious leaders, the discussion causes thought. For that reason, I am glad for the press about this Pope.

[NCLefty]

30. "Pope calls for fresh Church approach to children of gay parents"

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-calls-fresh-church-approach-children-gay-parents-192102096.html

Rome (AFP) - Pope Francis has called for a rethink in the way the Catholic Church deals with the children of gay couples and divorced parents, warning against "administering a vaccine against faith".

"On an educational level, gay unions raise challenges for us today which for us are sometimes difficult to understand," Francis said in a speech to the Catholic Union of Superiors General in November, extracts of which were published on Italian media websites on Saturday.

"The number of children in schools whose parents have separated is very high," he said, adding that family make-ups were also changing.

"I remember a case in which a sad little girl confessed to her teacher: 'my mother's girlfriend doesn't love me'," he was quoted as saying.

The pontiff said educational leaders should ask themselves "how can we proclaim Christ to a generation that is changing?"

"We must be careful not to administer a vaccine against faith to them," the 77-year-old added.

It sounds like this man sees the writing on the wall, knows the damage they've done, and how lost the youth are to them in many places now.

Still, I'll just be over here waiting for my "You are not an abomination (after all). Also, sorry for all the persecution and executions over the centuries. OOPS LOL."

[Plantaganet]

31. The important thing is to read the fine print.

For instance, everyone jumped on the whole "Who am I to judge" quote as if the pope was saying that gay unions were suddenly a-ok. Further investigation revealed that he was speaking specifically about celibate gay priests...

In this instance, the what the church really wants is to keep things loose enough so that heterosexual children raised by gay couples will still be fair game for easy indoctrination.

The parents, though, are still very much considered an abomination!

[NCLefty]

32. I agree. It sounded exactly to me like they still want to indoctrinate our children.

It's what they do.