Lots of people rely on homeopathy. Can they all be wrong? Yes

[Saviolo]

From the article:

Homeopathy has nothing to do with herbal remedies, many of which have legitimate uses. It is a practice hatched in the dark ages of science based on the idea that substances that cause symptoms in a healthy person can cure those same symptoms in an ill person. (So, for instance, onions, which make eyes itchy and tearful, can be used to relieve the symptoms of hay fever.) There is no logic to this, but this is not where it stops. Homeopaths, defying everything we know about toxicology, believe that diluting a solution containing a homeopathic remedy increases its potency. In fact, to potentiate the remedy, dilutions are carried out to an extent that the final product in most cases doesn’t even contain a single molecule of the original “remedy.”

Obviously it’s easy to make fun of homeopathy. The concept is absurd. But millions of people around the world do rely on homeopathic medications. Can they all be wrong? The simple answer is: Yes.

It is hard to understand how this has happened, since the directorate’s stated goal is for “all Canadians (to) have ready access to natural health products that are safe, effective and high quality, while respecting freedom of choice and philosophical and cultural diversity.”

Safety is not an issue with homeopathic products, because they contain nothing. I’m not sure what “high quality” means in this context; presumably that the pills are produced in an environment free of contaminants. But what about efficacy? There is actually no requirement that homeopathic producers demonstrate this — which is lucky for them, because no proof of efficacy is to be had for homeopathic mercury, arsenic, “Berlin Wall” or, most alarmingly, homeopathic “vaccines” and mosquito repellents.

Homeopathy isn't the same as herbal remedies or legitimate alternate therapies, it is pure snake oil. It's not unsafe in and of itself, but as indicated in the article, people are passing off homeopathic vaccines and mosquito repellants that will not actually do anything. This is actively dangerous if you're going into an area that has a danger of West Nile (the example in the article) or Malaria.

Read the article from the Montreal Gazette here: http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/Right+Chemistry+Debunking+homeopathy/8852871/story.html

And as Tim Minchin quotes in his fantastic poem Storm:

It's a miracle! Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And while it's memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is Infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo it's had in it!

Read the whole poem here: http://www.lyricsmania.com/storm_lyrics_tim_minchin.html

[boomer55]

1. Its the only snake oil that completely stops my gall bladder attacks when they happen.

Nothing the western docs gave me did anything.

I take a combo of 3 homeopathic pills and the attack stops within 5 minutes.

love my snake oil!

[Saviolo]

2. Is it an herbal remedy

...or actual dilute-and-shake-and-dilute-again homeopathics. Frequently the two are conflated, but they're not really close to each other.

Homeopathic remedies contain just about 0 active ingredients. Herbals can be effective for lots of things. I take Valerian for occasional sleeplessness.

[boomer55]

3. its the ones in the blue tubes...little round white pills.

Calcarea carbonica:
Berberis vulgaris

and one more I cant remember the name of.

[Saviolo]

4. From the article:

They do address this:

But while the tenets of homeopathy are marinated in pseudo-science, homeopaths can serve a useful function. They ask a plethora of caring questions and lend a sympathetic ear — processes that can translate to a reduction in stress and anxiety as the ailment naturally resolves. Add a dose of placebo and you’ve accounted for the success of homeopathy.

[TheBlackAdder]

5. Some work, some don't. Just like the Big PhRMA medicines.

There is a time and place for homeopathy, herbal, mind & body as well as pharmacological drugs.

I have issue with folks completely discounting one method of remedy over another as each field of treatment has their merits and drawbacks.

Big PhRMA wanted to ban marijuana because they cannot patent natural remedies and ingredients and offer a non-natural prescription replacement.

Big PhRMA has been trying to ban natural remedies for decades because they cannot make any money from it.

They've been caught years back funding pseudo-research trying to invalidate holistic and natural remedies. There are billions of dollars at stake and many of the politicians are receiving wads of cash to push the banning and import of various cures. It's funny, when you look at how the homeopathic and natural industry is evaluated. Most are false, and the ones that prove to have merit are based on flawed studies -- indicating that the fix is in to invalidate them all.

[Saviolo]

6. Nothing wrong with herbal remedies

Herbal remedies are very useful, and I use several of them. My husband uses St. Johns Wort for mood regulation, and I use Valerian for occasional sleeplessness. Holistic and Homeopathic are different things.

Homeopathic remedies are where a tiny amount of a substance that causes the same symptom you're attempting to treat is dissolved in water (for instance, onions cause your eyes to water, so if you've got watery eyes from allergies, they'll put a drop of onion juice in water), then shaken. Then that water is further diluted with more water, and on and on. The theory is that the more dilute it is, the better it treats the symptoms. The theory is that the water has a memory of the vibration of the molecule of onion juice that will treat your ailment, even if it has been diluted to such an extent that there is a statistically negligible quantity of it remaining.

Herbals/holistic and homeopathic remedies aren't the same thing.

[eShirl]

7. My problem is when stores mix them on the shelves with regular OTC remedies and herbs.

Homeopathic stuff should be available to anyone who wants it, just don't trick me into buying it thinking it's a regular OTC remedy. (Yes, I know, read the entire label including the fine print before I buy something new.)

[Big Blue Marble]

8. This OpEd piece relies far more on opinion than fact.

Beware of the assumption that because it does not "make sense" it can't
work. People have fallen in that trap for centuries. Smuggness has no
place in science.

What if it does work? And we just need a bigger model than we currently
operate in to understand why?

[Saviolo]

10. Fact or faith?

If there were a scientific study that showed that homeopathic remedies had an efficacy better than placebo, I would be embarrassed and proclaim to all that I was wrong. But there is no such study. The British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology produced a paper called "A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy." From the abstract:

Seventeen articles fulfilled the inclusion/exclusion criteria. Six of them related to re-analyses of one landmark meta-analysis. Collectively they implied that the overall positive result of this meta-analysis is not supported by a critical analysis of the data. Eleven independent systematic reviews were located. Collectively they failed to provide strong evidence in favour of homeopathy. In particular, there was no condition which responds convincingly better to homeopathic treatment than to placebo or other control interventions. Similarly, there was no homeopathic remedy that was demonstrated to yield clinical effects that are convincingly different from placebo. It is concluded that the best clinical evidence for homeopathy available to date does not warrant positive recommendations for its use in clinical practice.

A link to the paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2125.2002.01699.x/abstract;jsessionid=CDEB82CE8023027195DDFF2B09771112.d03t01?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+on+31+August+from+10%3A00-12%3A00+BST+%2805%3A00-07%3A00+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance

There are lots of other scientific studies that show the same result. The effects of homeopathic remedies are statistically indistinguishable from placebo. Again, this is just about the dilute-and-shake homeopathic remedies, not herbal remedies or supplements. Plenty of natural/herbal remedies are used and used effectively.

[Big Blue Marble]

12. Your response does not speak to the bias of the writer or your own.

You nor the writer of this piece are neutral on this modality. Your bias colors
your opinion as does the writer. What if your assumptions are in error?

As an earlier poster stated, Pharma has a vested interest in undermining alternative
therapies that have no profit. Who funds The British Journal Of Clinical Pharmacology?

I am not posting to convince you of anything. Your mind is steeled against any
possibility that there is something to homeopathy. I post to show you that not
everyone agrees with your opinion. I remain open to the possibility that there
are other forms of healing than the established western model that is driving
us into bankruptcy and at same time killing and injuring far too many.

Check the facts as to how many people die each year from Pharma drugs.

Edit to add a few quick links to possible positive RCTs. If you are truly open minded, take the
time to read some alternative opinions to your own:

link:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/luc-montagnier-homeopathy-taken-seriously_b_814619.html|
link:http://www.homeopathy-soh.org/research/evidence-base-for-homeopathy-2/clinical-trials/|


Had to edit multiple times to get links to work as well as typos and spelling errors

[Saviolo]

13. I'm not a fan of big pharma

Please don't get me wrong. I think big pharma holds us all hostage with high drug prices while blocking generic versions of the same drugs. At the same time they push studies through on dangerous drugs (like Vioxx for instance) without disclosing the (deadly) dangers that their own clinical trials discovered. Big pharma needs to change, I agree 100%, but:

My opinion on homeopathics is informed by scientific study. There is nothing inherently dangerous about homeopathic remedies, because, by their own admission, there's nothing in them. But if someone is suffering from a terminal, but modern drug-treatable illness, and they decide to rely on homeopathic remedies, they will die.

My attitude is almost identical to Tim Minchin's (I do recommend the video, it's very funny), in that if suddenly it is scientifically proven that homeopathic remedies work, that a drop of water can remember the vibration from a drop of onion juice that is no longer present within it, I will change my mind. That's how science works.

[Big Blue Marble]

14. Did you read the links?

There is scientific study to indicate there maybe something to homeopathy after all.

Your concerns for those taking homeopathy is misplaced.
Do you know of of a case where someone was harmed or killed by taking homeopathics?

Far too many people that do rely on pharma drugs are dying everyday.
Likely over 100,000 per year in the US alone.


Frankly this issue concerns me far more than any "danger from homeopathics."


[link:http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm|

[Saviolo]

15. Taking my time

There are lots of links leading off from the links you provided. I'm browsing at my leisure.

Again, I'd like to point out, I don't see any danger in homeopathic remedies in and of themselves. They're not toxic or hazardous. The real hazard comes from people trying to profit on people who trust them. Homeopathic practitioners who tell people that a tincture of nettle will solve their cancer problem.

I'm not arguing that there are problems with big pharma, that's a whole other problem. Huge corporations making enormous bank on people who are sick and dying, regardless of the human cost? Needs to change badly. But I take equal umbrage at the small-time practitioners who attempt to sell homeopathic remedies as a cure-all in the face of modern medical science in order to make a quick buck, too.

[Big Blue Marble]

16. Have you ever actually met or worked with a homeopathic physician?

Seriously, these people are not profiting off their clients in any major way.
After spending much time and investment to learn homeopathy,
they will spend two hours with each client to learn of the person's significant
issues and personality and then charge them maybe two hundred dollars for
their recommendations and that includes the remedies, most of which cost
very little themselves. Compare that to the cost of going to a physician
and then to the drug store for multiple prescriptions that must be filled
over and over. There is no comparison as to who is making the obscene
profits.

No homeopathic physician I know would make the claims you accuse them of making.
They are deeply thoughtful and careful diagnosticians who take pride in their
healing craft much like medical doctors of past generations. They are extremely
cautious about any claims to heal and are very serious about their contributions to
the healing arts.

My husband was a allopathic healthcare practitioner who gave away the homeopathic remedies
he prescribed He made no profit from them. He gave them as a service to his patients.

I do appreciate that you are willing to read of research that could give a different perspective
on the efficacy of homeopathic therapy. I, like you, do not know with any certainty that
homeopathy does what it promises. I am, though, open to the possibility that it does.
I would never laugh at its practitioners or impugn their motives. They are, for the most
part as with any profession, sincere people who are helping their fellow humans to the
best of their abilities and knowledge.

[Saviolo]

17. I've known several, in fact

A very close friend of my husband's was a practitioner of Reiki, Healing Hands, and homeopathy. She was very earnest and had nothing but good intentions. When my husband's father was having a stroke in front of us, she delayed getting him to the hospital so that she could align his vertices... and therein lies the danger.

The good ones that you describe, as mentioned in the article, can easily make for a very good sympathetic ear, and relax the patient to the point where the body (less stressed) does start to heal itself. But delaying a stroke victim on the way to the hospital? She had the best intentions at heart, but if he had gotten to a hospital that much sooner, would medical science have been able to mitigate some of the damage done? We'll never know at this point.

However, as with everything, there are also those out to make a buck. Just as there are quack doctors, there are quack homeopaths, and I've had family members run into those in the past. And recommending homeopathic or holistic medicine in serious medical emergencies like cancer or heart disease is a disservice. Check out http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html for some examples with links to the stories involved.

I've even tried homeopathic remedies in the past, before I really knew what it was all about. Someone recommended them to me, and I was pretty convinced that they might help me for a couple of minor ailments. They had precisely zero effect.

[Warpy]

9. Unlike the herbs & vitamin crowd, they get to take their "remedies" in hospital

Docs know they're paying exorbitant prices for water, but that placebo effect is real and they'll take it, especially when there is absolutely no chance the stuff will react to any other drug they need to be on.

I'd advise the video, you miss most of the venomous sarcasm in reading the words.

[Saviolo]

11. Fantastic

An amazing piece of modern beat poetry.

[SheilaT]

18. Perhaps the most important thing to keep in mind

in how powerful the placebo affect is. It's something like 30%, meaning that if you simply give people a placebo, which is basically nothing other than perhaps a sugar pill, 30 percent of them will experience real improvement. Which means that a new medicine for whatever has to perform better than the placebo effect to be considered effective.

The human mind is powerful. Think of all those who are absolutely convinced that the microwaves from cell phone towers are the real cause of their ills. Or those that suffer from any one of a vast number of illnesses that can't be conventionally diagnosed but lead to real suffering.

It's been my observation that a great number of people are very invested in being ill. They suffer from SOMETHING, and by God they're not going to rest until they convince everyone else that their illness is real.

I just wish people would invest as much energy into being healthy.

[CanSocDem]

19. Yes Indeed.

"I just wish people would invest as much energy into being healthy."


Not to mention MONEY! If we invested as much money "into being healthy" as we spend convincing people they are sick...

And a good point about "placebos"....they're FREE!


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