Fall is my time of year for breadmaking with natural yeast

[Major Nikon]

I don't bake as much during the hot summer months so fall is the time I like to get a natural yeast culture going. I probably should keep my culture in the refrigerator over the summer, but it's easy enough to get one going again. Today I mixed together 500g of rye flour and 500g of water. I'll continue to feed it and in about 7 days or so it should be ready to make bread.

If anyone wants to try making a natural yeast culture, I suggest starting out with whole grain rye flour (preferably stone milled but doesn't have to be) as it's the easiest to get going. You can also use just about any kind of whole grain flour. Whole grain has the most natural yeast, so it's best to start with that. Once the culture gets established, I'll be feeding mostly with the cheapest flour I can find with about 1/5th rye.

[Warpy]

1. I rather advise against using rye to capture natural yeast

because of the affinity it has for ergot. Now if you want to relive the 60s, go ahead. Just don't say you weren't warned.

Ergot can also affect white wheat flours, but it's less common and usually crowded out by the yeasts.

My favorite homemade culture of all time started out with red grapes. The flavor was just amazing but alas, it didn't have much rising power. Just a pinch of commercial yeast, though, and it produced the tastiest breads I've ever baked.

[Major Nikon]

3. I've never had a problem with it

It really shouldn't ever be a problem with domestic commercial rye flour. The reason is because it just isn't grown in areas that are susceptible to ergot and preventative methods are used in growing and processing. Ergot outbreaks are pretty much unheard of in the US, and the spores can't survive the acidic environment of the culture. So it wouldn't be an issue with the culture itself anyway, even in the very remote chance you had flour with toxic levels of it.

Natural yeast comes in many different forms. The kind of yeast that grows on grapes and other fruits isn't really conducive to feeding on wheat or spelt which is why it didn't have much rising power. As far as performance goes, yeasts that are natural to whole grains are the best for bread.

[denverbill]

2. Do you have a go to recipe for your breads?

I've been experimenting with sour dough for a month or so, and my results haven't been all that great. My starter usually seems pretty active when I make the sponge, but most of my loaves have turned out dense and too moist inside. My basic recipe has usually been to add 1/2 cup each flour and water to the starter for the sponge and let it go until foamy, usually a couple hours or more. Then take 1 cup of starter, add 2 cups flour (usually some whole wheat and AP or bread flour) and 1/4 cup water. I knead in a stand mixer for 7 minutes or so, then rise, shape, rise again and bake. The results are always similar. Nice crust, fairly good sour-dough flavor, but dense grain that barely toasts in the toaster because it's so wet.

[Major Nikon]

4. It sounds like you may have a problem with your hydration levels

I always measure everything by weight, not volume. When you measure by volume, it's very easy to get your hydration levels off which can very much affect your final outcome, particularly if you are using whole wheat. The hydration levels I use are generally around 70-75%. To calculate hydration levels, simply use the ratio of flour to water. For instance, if your recipe uses 1000g of flour and 700g of water, your hydration level is 70%. Naturally for breads leavened with a natural culture, you'll need to consider the amount of flour and water in your starter to get the final hydration level.

Each cup of flour should be ~127g but may be much different if you are measuring by volume. 2 cups would be about 254g and 1/4 water is about 60g which would give you somewhere around a 76% hydration level. If your starter is 100% hydration, that's going to raise your end result even more, so I wouldn't be surprised if your hydration level of the dough is over 80%.

The cultures I use for my breads are less acidic than what most home bakers are going to use. The reason is because I throw away almost all of my culture and feed every day. My culture also has a pretty high hydration level. So my recipes may not translate well to your starter. I also don't knead my bread. I mix by hand and use the folding method described by Forkish in his book.

Dense bread can also be caused by overproofing. I go by volume rather than time with the initial fermentation. Whole wheat breads should double in volume on the first rise. White breads should triple. With the final proof I use the finger dent test.

What I always recommend for people that are having problems is to pick up a book that includes the methods used for feeding your culture AND the recipes that go along with it. The one I recommend the most is...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/160774273X/

There are some videos you can find on the youtubes or on Forkish's web site that go with this book.
http://kensartisan.com/#/videos

Peter Reinhart also has some very good books on the subject. This one would be an excellent start as well...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Bread-Bakers-Apprentice-Extraordinary/dp/1580082688

[denverbill]

5. OK that surprises me a little because I was thinking my next loaf I would increase the water.

My loaves have usually been pretty 'unsticky' after mixing/kneading in the stand mixer. But some things I've read/seen online (videos about the stretch and fold method of kneading for example) show a very wet, sticky dough. I was thinking maybe I was under-hydrating, or maybe under-kneading.

Wait though, if hydration level is the ratio by weight of water to flour, and my water weight is 60 and flour 254, wouldn't that be 24% hydration? Plus a cup of starter at closer to 100% hydration, maybe I'd be closer to 40% hydration.

[Major Nikon]

6. This is correct

I was doing the inverse. 70% of the weight of the flour in water is normally what I shoot for. With hydration levels this high the dough will be sticky, which is why folding is preferred to kneading and it's a good idea to use the autolysis method. I also proof in a cane basket and bake in a cast iron dutch oven, so shape retention isn't really a problem. I prefer rustic or country style breads, which do better with a higher hydration level. If you are doing loaf bread and mechanical kneading, you may want a lower hydration level, say around 60-65%.

[denverbill]

7. OK I made a pretty darned good loaf today, so thanks for the hydration pointer.

I overdid the hydration a bit since my calcs were a bit off somehow. I was shooting for 65% and ended up over 70%. Made it a bit hard to stretch and fold dough so I had to dust it with flour to make it manageable. But the end result was MUCH better. Now that I know the dough needs to be a bit stickier I should be able to adjust things more easily in the future.

Thanks!

[Major Nikon]

9. Here's another tip

After you do you final mixing, you want the dough to be between 78-80F. That's the sweet spot as far as developing your dough during the ferment (first rise) stage. This generally means adding water that is slightly higher in temperature, say 82-85F when mixing. So when you mix your final dough, measure the temperature immediately after and note the temp. If it's outside the 78-80F range, adjust your mix water temperature accordingly the next time.

[Major Nikon]

8. The day after the first feeding and the culture is coming along nicely

The volume doubled with lots of bubbles and there's a nice leathery rye smell which means the natural yeast inherent to the rye flour is already quite active. The second feeding is just like the first. I throw away all but 1/4 of the culture, then add 500g of rye flour and 500ml of 90F water (I filter the water through a Brita for the first week of feedings, but you don't really have to do so).

[Bjornsdotter]

10. Rye Flakes

I read very recently (although I can't remember where) that if you could find rye flakes to use them in your starter along with the rye flour. Have you heard of using them and if so is it beneficial?

[Major Nikon]

11. I haven't tried it

I'm not sure how it would be beneficial.

[Bjornsdotter]

12. My Mistake

I found the recipe...it was for a deli-style rye which called for rye flakes in the sponge. I confused it with the starter recipes I had been looking at.