NY forgets to exempt the knighly cla...*AHEM* police...

[Callisto32]

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news%2Flocal%2Fnew_york&id=8958116

Most interestingly, I think, is that people commenting on this seem to think it shows how inept the .gov of NY is.

I'm going to take a decidedly darker train of thought and suggest that these folks (politicians) see themselves and their empowered few as so far above the law that they didn't even consider that it would affect them when they were rushing to disarm the unwashed masses.

[hlthe2b]

1. Intentional? Hardly....

as evidenced by the rapid move to correct it.

[Callisto32]

4. I didn't say it was intentional.

Of course it was an oversight.

I'm suggesting they aren't that bad at writing legislation, just at seeing themselves as subject to them.

[rl6214]

43. Just goes to show what a knee jerk reaction the law is

Since they have to amend it already.

[holdencaufield]

2. Never mind ...

[Callisto32]

28. What kind of weak sauce post is that?

[holdencaufield]

36. Pop culture reference ...

... try and keep up.

[Riftaxe]

40. It is slightly possible

he might not recognize Gilda, although explaining that SNL used to be funny is more likely to get you disbelieved.

[holdencaufield]

42. Once upon a time ...

[JoeBlowToo]

3. The unwashed masses seem to support the law massively

Seems you are out of step with public opinion...


Most New Yorkers Back New Gun Laws: Poll

Thursday, January 17, 2013

By Karen DeWitt : NYS Public Radio/WXXI
Voters overwhelmingly support many of the items that New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is pushing — including parts of the newly enacted gun control law, according to a new poll.

About 73 percent of voters said they wanted New York to have the strongest anti gun laws in the nation, including banning assault weapons and outlawing magazine clips that hold more than seven bullets.

“It has support downstate and upstate,” Seina pollster Steve Greenberg said. “Even 58 percent of Republican voters support the toughest assault weapons ban in the action.”

[Callisto32]

5. Argumentum ad populum.

There have been times when a majorities have supported lots of reprehensible things. That doesn't make those things any more right.

[JoeBlowToo]

6. And you are comparing this to what reprehensible things?

As emperor your argument is what?

[jimmy the one]

7. handguns are reprehensible, 2/3 of murders yearly

joe: And you are comparing this to what reprehensible things?

In a sense callisto's right, joe, but it's specious reasoning.
Americans oppose banning handguns by large margin of maybe 75% to 25%, and handguns account for about 2/3 the homicides yearly in america. Handguns are reprehensible things accounting for so much murder, yet the majority wants to keep them.

callisto: There have been times when a majorities have supported lots of reprehensible things. That doesn't make those things any more right.

Handguns fit this category quite nicely, as per above.
So did witchcraft in the 1600's/1700's, death to witches, burn at stake. You can always find some quirky majority opinion of the times to support what you say callisto, that doesn't absolutely preclude taking a proper course of action when it is warranted (especially as opposed to doing nothing), nor is it justification to suppose that ny guncontrol is reprehensible in itself.
Your argument is specious & biased.

[Callisto32]

11. I'm not comparing this to anything.

I'm saying that the mere fact that something is supported or believed by a majority of any size does not establish that thing as either right or true.

Suggesting such is a logical fallacy.

I'm not emperor, don't know what you mean by that. In fact, I'm suggesting that this law disempowering non-state agents as they relate to state agents is undesireable precisely because it concentrates power into the hands of fewer people. If anything, I reject imperialism wholly and forward the idea of the sovereign individual, thanks. Also, that was yet another logical fallacy, argumentum ad hominem, abusive.

I merely mentioned that majorities have supported reprehensible thigns. What that is, take your pick:

Subjugation of racial/ethnic/national/political minorities of any kind come to mind.....

[JoeBlowToo]

32. So your logical argument is to bring up reprehensible things that you claim...

you are not comparing with the gun laws and popular support thereof. Your "logic" bears an uncanny reseblance to one of those famous pretzels sold on the streets of New York.

[Callisto32]

33. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

I simply said "the majority sometimes supports reprehensible things" as a way of illustrating why argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.

I gave you an example: Subjugation of a minority group by a majority.

Your original statement was an appeal to authority*, a logical fallacy. You may as well have not wasted the electrons or your own time typing it for all the value it has in an argument. I pointed that out to you.

If you are incapable of abstracting out...I can't help you.

*Edit: Should have said "popularity."

[JoeBlowToo]

37. oh please, you started up with this "reprehensible things" which you then said had nothing...

to do with the content of the original discussion. Your point seems to be that you know a little bit about the terminology of logic aqnd debating which has nothing to do with this thread. I would say you are being obtuse but you too obtuse to realize it.

[melm00se]

8. This is exactly why

bills shouldn't be drafted, passed and signed into law while in an highly charged emotional state (usually driven by the mindset and calls that "we must DO something!!!&quot .

While yes the NYS legislature will move (quickly) to fix this glaring loophole, what other loopholes are in there underneath the radar? Ones that could potentially cause larger issues and trample on folks' rights (and not just the RKBA).

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. Can you say...

...nolle prosequi???

[Callisto32]

12. I can.

And I'll charge you a bundle to do it, too.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

13. Last I heard in most major cities...

...a court appearance was going for $800 - $1,000.

Your tax dollars at work.

[Callisto32]

15. We get 50.00/hr for ct. appointments, here.

Course, this is the opposite of the big city.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

16. And speaking of the opposite of the big city...

...we're considering moving to somewhat rural Utah.

[Puha Ekapi]

19. I am from...

...rural Utah. Beautiful country here in the Uintahs!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

21. I haven't seen the Uintahs.

I drove over 70 West to 15 South a few years ago and thought all of that was beautiful as well.

Are you still in Utah now?

[Puha Ekapi]

23. Right now

I am in the Bay Area finishing grad school. It's been interesting, but I don't understand how someone can live like a caged rat in a big city and like it. I'll be back home in May.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

25. nice

What are you studying?

[Puha Ekapi]

38. M.S.Ed.

Curriculum and Instruction. I teach my native language on our rez.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

39. I heard someone wise has said...

..."To understand the past, you must understand its language. To learn from the past, you must understand yourself."

It's a great thing to know different languages and to teach them to others. Good luck with teaching.

As I understand Utah was the last state to grant voting rights to Native Americans. I was shocked to find out that it was in the '50s. One of my family's heroes is Zitkala-sa/Gertrude Simmons Bonnin. Here's a link:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/gsbonnin.htm

I know it's not about your tribe/nation but if you have any interest a movie has been completed recently called the The Cherokee Word for Water. About the efforts by Wilma Mankiller and Charlie Soap to bring water to their Oklahoma town which I think is named Bell.

Link: http://www.cw4w.com/

I've been looking to see if it has been released on DVD but haven't found anything. Wilma Mankiller is another of family's heroes.

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. More to the point, Alan Gura et al., will say it.

And he's demonstrably effective at getting wads of cash from polities that are lax in their
Constitutional duties...

[jmg257]

10. Ahh - I see. There are exemptions that exist for LE, but

that existing section was not modified to include the new added sections on feeding devices.

Snork

[Callisto32]

14. I have real problems with this kind of thing in any context.

"One rule for me, another for thee" seems awfully feudal.

[jeepnstein]

27. Isn't that the goal?

Sure seems like it to me. And of course they've manufactured enough popular consent to make it seem like it's a good idea. Somehow I never considering outsourcing my security and freedom to someone who doesn't act like they like me particularly well to be a good plan.

[Callisto32]

31. I'm not sure it's the goal, as much as the not-so-hidden reality.

Property taxes look a hell of a lot like feudal quitrents to me, a periodic extraction of value by the lord in exchange for the privilege of continuing to use and enjoy "your" land, check.

A class of armed "knights" that get special privileges in exchange for assisting in maintaining the rule of the current regime, check.

Arbitrary and ever-increasing extraction of wealth from the lowest class (if anybody thinks wealthy people aren't going to simply pass the increased taxes onto their various end-users/clients, he is deluding himself), check.

Having to pay the king for the privilege of hunting "his" deer. Check.


Nothing really changed, we just changed the names.

[SayWut]

17. Pride goeth before a fall.

Cuomos the one to blame for this folly, due to his desire to forgo the normal 3 day period for review, study and commentary of proposed legislation prior to any vote from the floor.

In their rush to claim bragging rights to the 'toughest gun control laws in the nation", the legislature overlooked one of the most common exemptions written into gun control laws.

No doubt the 'oversight' will be corrected, but it does demonstrate the over zealousness of some gun control advocates in their quest to eradicate or strip the 2nd amendment of any meaning or usefulness.

[Lizzie Poppet]

18. But...but...the police NEED high-cap mags and all that stuff!

They might have to deal with hordes of those awful Occupy people who might otherwise inconvenience and annoy the 1%.

[Confusious]

26. They might have to deal with loony gun owners

thinking the black UN helicopters are coming to take their guns.

[Lizzie Poppet]

29. Perhaps so.

But as both a gun owner and an Occupier, I can sure tell you which I think is more likely...

[Confusious]

34. How about armed criminals

Do you think that's more likely?

[Lizzie Poppet]

35. Obviously.

Habitual, "career" criminals commit most of the gun-related violence in this country...always have. I'd be very surprised if that didn't also include gun violence against law enforcement personnel, too. I have heard, though, that cops tend to most expect violence to be used against them in domestic violence calls. Not sure how often that involves guns, though...

[Puha Ekapi]

20. "Hurry! We need to get this....

...passed while emotions are high. We can't wait for things to cool down and rational thought to take hold."

[Lizzie Poppet]

30. +1

[Straw Man]

41. Oh, it's worse than that ...

"Hurry! We need to get this....

...passed while emotions are high. We can't wait for things to cool down and rational thought to take hold."

Andy was very well aware that the first day of the NYS legislative session was the one-month anniversary of the Newtown killings and was two days before Obama was going to make his own gun control proposals. Timing is everything. He was hellbent on getting that bill through the Senate that very day -- hence his "message of necessity," waiving the three-day waiting period before voting on new bills. Otherwise Obama would have beaten him to the punch.

If you don't think the anniversary was a consideration, look at all the news stories that began "Exactly one month after the killings in Newtown, Governor Andrew Cuomo blah blah blah ..." He knew exactly what response he wanted, and he got it.

It may have been about emotion for the general public, but for Cuomo it was more about calculation.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

22. As my boss from long ago mentioned...

...to his boss, "If you want something in the worst way, that's usually how you'll get it."