what if we applied proposed gun control legislation to alcohol?

[bossy22]

the result is something that can actually be rationally argued!

Limit to the proof one can buy at a store or possess for home consumption- If we limited the proof of alcohol that was allowed to be purchased at stores for home consumption to no more than 40 proof, wouldn't that save lives? It's alot harder to get drunk off beer and wine then it is Jack Daniels. Plus it would still allow you to keep a bottle of wine for dinner, or a 6 pack for when your friends come over to watch the game.

"safe storage" of alcohol in the home- a major source of alcohol for underage individuals is the parents' liquor cabinet. We could decrease the amount of underage drinking by simply requiring adults to lock up their alcohol- either in a locked cabinet or a small fridge whenever they are not present.

Limiting the amount of alcohol one could buy at a commercial establishment- a limit of 2 drinks/hr would significantly reduce the amount of drunk driving deaths we have in this country, as well as the other issues caused by intoxicated individuals. You would still be able to go out to a bar and have a good time. No one should need to get intoxicated to have a fun night.

All of these suggestions do not trample on anyone's right to consume alcohol. All they do is put a few "reasonable" restrictions to protect the general public. No one is saying you can't have a beer after work, or a glass of wine at dinner.

[holdencaufield]

1. I seem to recall they already did that.

I forget -- did it work out well?

[gejohnston]

5. worked out well for some people

not so much for others.

[jmg257]

17. Didn't he die in jail?

[gejohnston]

25. no, he was paroled in 1939

and died in 1947
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Capone

[jmg257]

26. No shit?..I did not remember that! Thanks.

Only served 8 years...ah well.

[Eleanors38]

50. Doin' the robot-walk in Miami Beach: Syphilis.

[bluedigger]

2. When people start forcing unwanted alcohol down my throat I'll consider that.

[holdencaufield]

6. Apparently -- you never pledged

[bluedigger]

9. "Unwanted alcohol" was not a concept I was capable of grasping in college.

[bossy22]

13. whos forcing a gun down your throat?

[Electric Monk]

32. Ask the parents of the kids at Sandy Hook Elementary how much choice they had

re: bullets beings forcibly inserted into their children.

[bossy22]

39. why dont you ask the parents of all those kids

Who died because of a drunk driver? Or who died from an overdose?

[Jenoch]

14. Has anyone forced

you to purchase a gun? That seems to be the comparison you are attempting to make.

[bluedigger]

16. Kennesaw, Georgia.

[spin]

18. Do you have any proof that the law was in Kennesaw ever enforced? (n/t)

[bluedigger]

29. Do you have any proof it couldn't be? n/t

[spin]

33. This should help. ...

Georgia Town Ordering Gun Ownership Undaunted by Massacre
By Margaret Newkirk - Dec 21, 2012 12:01 AM ET

Kennesaw, Georgia, is a quiet Atlanta suburb of newer subdivisions and strip malls around a huddle of older homes and storefronts. It is asking churches to ring their bells 26 times today for the victims of last week’s elementary school massacre in Connecticut.

And it has no plans to change a law requiring residents to own guns.

***snip***

Kennesaw, about 30 miles northwest of Atlanta, had about 5,000 people when its City Council adopted an ordinance requiring heads of households to own a gun and enough ammunition to use it, said police Lieutenant Craig Graydon, 47, who’s fielded questions about the law for 26 years.

Political Statement

The 1982 law was a symbolic rebuke to the village of Morton Grove, Illinois, the first community to ban the sale and possession of handguns. Kennesaw’s ordinance had little effect on a rural community where most people already owned firearms, Graydon said. It was also unenforceable on its face. Anyone who says they are morally opposed to guns is exempt. So is anyone who can’t afford to buy one....emphasis added
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-21/georgia-town-ordering-gun-ownership-undaunted-by-massacre.html

[Jenoch]

28. How long

have you lived in Kennesaw and what make and model of firearm did you end up purchasing?

[bluedigger]

30. If it could happen there, it could happen anywhere.

And I suspect more than a few here would approve.

[Jenoch]

31. What happened to you?

[jmg257]

3. Seems plausible, so get on it!

[tularetom]

4. It didn't work for alcohol and it won't work for guns

Or marijuana.

Or gay marriage.

Or abortion.

Or any other fucking thing you can think of.

Banning anything just makes it more desireable and valuable.

It's human nature.

[jmg257]

7. So banning guns will make more people want them..just because??

And be willing to break the law just to have them?

Hmph...go figure. "gun nuts" would really be applicable then.

[gejohnston]

11. not exactly

but the people who are killing each other will still have the guns partly because they are often in the business of getting the other stuff to market or is the end customer.

[jmg257]

15. So we will start importing guns for criminal usage? Doesn't seem much of a market.

Or one all that hard to crack down on.

[spin]

21. That's true. Look how successful our War on Drugs has been! ...

[jmg257]

22. How many illegal gun owners would there be do you think?

Would you be one?

ETA: take it you're not one of "those people killing each other" ge referred to.

[spin]

36. I would have a hard time estimating the percentage of gun owners who would refuse ...

to turn their firearms in. I can only base my estimate on the gun owners that I know.

I've enjoyed shooting target handguns for over 40 years. Consequently I've talked to a number of other shooters most who went to pistol ranges on a regular basis. Often the subject of government gun confiscation has come up.

An extremely high percentage of the regular shooters that I have know have told me that they have no intention of turning in all the firearms they own. Realize that in Florida gun registration is actually illegal under state law so the state government does not know what firearms any honest citizen owns. Obviously Florida would suspect that I own a firearm as I have a concealed weapons permit but the state would has no information about what types of firearms I own unless I own a fully automatic weapon which is legal but does require federal registration and approval of local authorities.

But talk is cheap. It's very easy to say that you would never turn in your firearms so many who have stated this probably would. Still I would estimate that 10 to 20 percent would simply turn in one or two firearms and hide others along with a supply of ammo. There are plenty of internet sites that have instructions on how to hide weapons and preserve them for a long period of time and most of the regular shooters that I know are aware of these sites.

The regular shooters that I have known have a distrust of our government. That doesn't mean that they fear "jackbooted thugs" are going to show up on their doorsteps to take their weapons at anytime in the near future, just that it might be possible in the next 20 years. Nor have I ever heard one of my firearm acquaintances say that they plan to launch a rebellion and overthrow the government merely because some Democrats are suggesting strong gun control. They often do say that they plan to show up at the polls to vote against any and all Democrats which is discouraging to me since they often support many positions that our party backs. A few are very religious, most are not. A high percentage own an "assault style rifle" and probably 95% own a semi-automatic handgun with a magazine capacity of over ten rounds. Oddly I don't. I am primarily a "wheel gunner" as I enjoy shooting revolvers. I don't hunt and rarely shoot rifles but I do own a bolt action Mauser and a double barreled coach gun.

My group of shooting friends is composed mostly of professional well educated individuals. They come from a wide background. Some are retired cops and firefighters, some are doctors, lawyers, engineers and technicians. Some own their own business. A good percentage served in our armed services and some were in combat.

None of my shooting buddies belong to a militia and run around in the woods on the weekends wearing camouflage outfits and practicing military tactics. I would imagine that a high percentage of such people would absolutely refuse to turn in all their weapons.

Perhaps 10% of the shooters I know are hunters. Still most are very patriotic and strongly believe in the Bill of Rights especially the First and Second Amendments. Most are Republicans but a few like me are Democrats. We take a lot of good natured kidding.

[upaloopa]

53. Why do gunners persist in arguing against taking

your guns away when nobody is proposing to take your guns away?

[Jenoch]

54. There are many people

posting on these threads suggesting the confiscation of 'assault weapons' and high capacity magazines.

[spin]

57. Gun confiscation has been proposed in Missouri. ...

Missouri Democrats propose law giving gun owners 90 days to turn in weapons
GUN CONTROLFEBRUARY 14, 2013BY: JOE NEWBY

Missouri Democrats have introduced a measure that if passed into law, would give owners of certain types of "assault" weapons 90 days to either turn them in to authorities, disable them or ship them out of the state, Jim Hoft reported at the Gateway Pundit Thursday.

***snip***

The law also applies to certain semi-automatic pistols and semi-automatic shotguns with similar characteristics.

Democrats in the state also want to confiscate pistols or rifles with fixed magazines that can hold more than ten rounds of ammunition.

***snip***

Those already in possession of these weapons or magazines will have 90 days to:

Remove the assault weapon or large capacity magazine from the state of Missouri;
Render the assault weapon permanently inoperable; or
Surrender the assault weapon or large capacity magazine to the appropriate law enforcement agency for destruction, subject to specific agency regulations.
If the proposal becomes law, those who violate it will be charged with a Class C felony, punishable by up to seven years in prison.
http://www.examiner.com/article/missouri-democrats-propose-law-giving-gun-owners-90-days-to-turn-weapons

The text of the bill is at: http://www.nraila.org/media/10886389/mo_hb_545.pdf

[gejohnston]

44. from what I can find

Australians estimate only 20 percent of those registered were turned in. The German government estimates that there are five million registered guns and 20 non registered guns. Then there is the Canadian long gun registry that the RCMP kept moving the deadline, and many of the provinces refused to enforce.

[jmg257]

46. Thanks. Curious - did the bans seem to make a difference in reducing gun violence, even

though only a small percentage complied?

(ps I know I could look it up but you usually have such info readily handy!)

[gejohnston]

49. dropped the use of guns in suicides

basically, those committing the violence didn't register their guns to begin with. Murder and suicide rates did not seem to be affected, other than continue to drop at the rate they were anyway. While there is the rare law abiding person who snaps and takes out a store, the vast majority of murderers do not. In the Australian "decade of the mass shooting" at least one were casualties on both sides of a gang fight. While there hasn't been any more such mass shootings since the ATA, I can't find any in the previous decades either. Since repeating rifles are still legal, I tend to doubt the ATA had anything to do with ending mass killings.

[Jenoch]

55. The long gun registration

system in Canada was discontinued due to lack of participation. They spent a billion dollars on the registration of long guns before giving up.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2013/01/22/canada-tried-registering-long-guns-and-gave-up/

[Eleanors38]

51. Based on my past actions regarding dumb-ass laws I have formulated an opinion:

[jmg257]

52. LOL! Love it! nt

[gejohnston]

23. maybe

doesn't seem to be working too well for Mexico or Jamaica. From what I have been reading about Australia, gun control advocates are ranting about pistols being "portable machine guns in glove boxes" while their gun lobby wants increased customs inspections.
Of course there are always quality "shade tree" guns like those made in Cebu and Pakistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm

or Melbourne
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/22/1090464799535.html?oneclick=true

[jmg257]

24. Not sure what you're saying...but..ok. nt

[hack89]

40. Drug cartels smuggle drugs by the pallet load

smuggling guns is even easier - much harder to detect.

[jmg257]

42. Who will they be selling them to? Masses of the current "law-abiding" gun owners?

A small percentage of them?

Only the current criminals - 'the people who are killing each other' as geJohnson mentions? (once their 'legally owned' straw puchase/stolen gun market dries up)

I understand that using guns is a bit more...involved then say taking a sip of illegal whiskey in a speak-easy someplace, or lighting up a joint in your darkened living room, so I am real curious about who the market will be...and why so many 'law abiding'people will break the law just to have a gun or 2.

[hack89]

43. The same "law abiding" people that buy drugs to the tune of billions of dollars a year

the same "law abiding" people that bought bootleg whiskey during Prohibition. The same "law abiding" people that routinely disobey speed limits.

Many people disobey laws they see as unfair or unreasonable. Many would buy guns just to stick an finger in the eye of gun controllers. Most don't understand what the big deal is about guns and will continue living their lives as before, with guns as part of it.

Having a gun would be like buying pot - technically a crime, but accepted and condoned by a large swath of American society. There would be no stigma attached.

It is all moot anyway - gun control is on the loosing side here. There will be no bans.

[jmg257]

45. I don't agree that such a large swath will find illegal gun ownership

as acceptable as pot or alcohol. In certain areas - sure. But overall? Not when the deadly results of shootings are displayed daily for all to see. If that was the case, we wouldn't even have to worry about ANY such bans. I think there would be plenty of people willing to cough up a neighbor when they feel threatened, and plenty of LE willing to act.

No way would (or should) the penalties for illegal ownership be comparable to speeding violations, which are very rarely designated as a crime. Weigh the risk and take your chances - with speeding, drug use, or owning contraband. Doubt if there will be so many who take becoming a criminal so lightly. For those that are so willing to risk a criminal record and jail time for illegal ownership - well good luck with that!

But I of course I could be wrong. I do admit that personally I just don't get the attraction enough, or have a perceived need worth going to jail for. When the risk is great enough it seems a lot to lose for so little gain. And a pretty big tie-up of money for items you can not so easily ever sell or even give away.

Ah well, as you noted, just musings, as I too feel for now there will be no all-out bans.

[hack89]

48. The flaw in your logic

is that you assume gun violence is widely and evenly spread throughout America. Most people look around and realize that gun violence is very much geographically limited. Where I live there has been exactly two murders with guns in 12 years - and that is area of 45,000. Gun violence in Rhode Island, like most states, is limited to poor inner city urban areas. They also know that most murders are committed by people that cannot legally own guns in the first place. So they would question and resent the notion that legal gun owners are lumped in with criminals. They know and accept that responsible gun ownership is not only possible but is the norm.

People also know that the majority of gun deaths are suicides - which they view as a personal choice. Most Americans are opposed to giving up rights just so you have to find another way to kill yourself.

People are more discerning then you appear to be - they can see the shades of gray in guns and American society. They certainly see beyond the "guns are evil" mindset that the gun control movement embraces. They are smarter than that.

[holdencaufield]

8. Banning gay marriage won't make it more desireable to me ...

... I'm against ALL forms of marriage.

[jmg257]

10. Good point...I think I'll pass on that abortion thing too.

[bluedigger]

12. Heroin and murder for everyone!

The inability to achieve perfect compliance is no excuse not to try.

[Straw Man]

19. Is there a heroin exemption for cops?

No? Malum in se, you say? I see. Like the murder thing. Not like the gun thing.

[MotherPetrie]

20. Your post reminds me of the old George Carlin routine

[SayWut]

27. PC's should be equipped with Breathalyzer lock out devices.

Think about all the bandwidth (and embarrassing moments), that could be saved if just one simple invention could spare the rest of us from idiocy and poorly thought out ideas.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

58. Genius! That would have saved me a "hide"...

... and a well-deserved "hide" it was.

[quakerboy]

34. How about we apply alcohol control laws to guns instead

[gejohnston]

35. because alcohol control laws are less restrictive than gun control laws

even on the federal level. When was the last time you had to get a background check to buy a six pack? I don't think the ATF has strict inventory procedures for liquor stores, recording each bottle or can by serial number as they come in and go out.

[JDPriestly]

37. It would really reduce our crime rate.

A lot of our crime is related to alcohol. \

FACT: 5.3 million adults − 36% of those under correctional supervision at the time − were drinking at the time of their conviction offense

. . . .

ACT: Alcohol is a factor in 40% of all violent crimes today

About 3 million violent crimes occur each year in which victims perceive the offender to have been drinking. Crimes include: rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated and simple assault. About two-thirds of violent crimes are characterized as simple assaults.

Based on victim reports, alcohol use by the offender was a factor in:

37% of rapes and sexual assaults
15% of robberies
27% of aggravated assaults, and
25% of simple assaults

More on this at

http://www.ncadd.org/index.php/learn-about-alcohol/alcohol-and-crime/202-alcohol-and-crime

Everyone talks about how awful prohibition was, how much crime it caused. But the crime associated and resulting from alcohol use is much, much worse.

Alcohol reduces inhibitions -- hence it is associated with all kinds of anti-social behavior.

But reigning in alcohol use would be extremely unpopular. Of course, education and laws about where and when tobacco may be consumed have reduced smoking -- and improved health in former smokers and smokers who have reduced their daily smokes.

[hack89]

41. And suicides

considering suicides are the majority of gun deaths, we could kill two birds with one stone.

[jimmy the one]

38. MGrove vs Kennesaw

caufield: I seem to recall they already did that. I forget -- did it work out well?

Prohibition (presumably) isn't what bossy suggests, not by a long 'shot'. He suggests capping the max alcohol in distilled beverages at 20% (40 proof); so whiskeys gins rums vwodkas scotches couldn't have higher than 20% alcohol content. If this were somehow adhered to by entire population, yes it would decrease amount of alcohol related deaths & drunk driving etc.....(yes, vwodka, my slavic pronunciation).
.. but it can't be religiously adhered to - too many 'loopholes'. Notably 'getting drunk' is a cumulative thing & this proscription could be contravened simply by drinking more of the 20% liquor (or any other, beer or wine chasers). Interesting concept in it's own right pertaining to drink, but apples & oranges when compared to guns.
.. bossy's safe storage idea has merit & is already practiced by many parents, locking up alco drinks or making them inaccessible somehow, if only by hiding. Limiting to 2 drinks at bars & restaurants could be sidestepped by others buying drinks & giving to others, bar hopping .. & bar owners would object as it affects their profit taking.

Oh goody, somebody mentioned kennesaw, let's compare kennesaw which requires guns of most residents, with morton grove which to 2010 had a handgun ban: evaluation of comparable 2003 FBI crime statistics deflates this myth of the lower crime rates in Kennesaw vs. Morton Grove which gun lobbyists have been promoting. Both cities have similiar demographics and populations with 22.966 residents Morton Grove and 25,183 in Kennesaw.

2003 Murder: Morton Grove 2 - Kennnesaw 1
2003 Robbery: Morton Grove 4 - Kennesaw 7
2003 Aggravated Assault: Morton Grove 12 - Kennesaw 15
2003 Larceny And Theft: Morton Grove 390 - Kennesaw 455
2003 Burglary; Morton Grove 70 - Kennesaw 89

Crime (yr??) .. Kennesaw30152 -Morton Grove - Georgia - Illinois
Total Crime Risk ............. 85 ................37 ......................109 .....95
Personal Crime Risk......... 47 ................32 .........................91 ....115
Property Crime Risk....... 112 ................51 .......................113 .....92
http://www.homefair.com/real-estate/compare-cities/results.asp?Zip1=30152&Zip2=60053&sbmtZIP=Get+Report

These stats have been pretty much the same for the past 15 yrs. (on edit - crime stats, population stats have increased dramatically for kennesaw, doubling or tripling.) Had they been the other way around imagine what fun the nra & gun lobby would've had exploiting it!
Kennesaw has two zip codes, da grove bests da udder one as well.

[Remmah2]

47. What a sobering thought.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

56. I need to drink on it.