What gun control measure will meaningfully address inner-city violence?

[brindleboxer]

As I understand it, the majority of this country's homicides take place primarily between young men in urban minority communites, primarily urban black communities. As is often mentioned on here, the war on drugs and the lucrative and violent underground economy it has created is a large factor in this (murders over drug beefs, turf disputes, etc), but it's not the only factor. I work at a public defender's office in a major city that has a significant amount of gun crime and murders, and many of the disputes resulting in murder are over things besides drugs, but that don't by any stretch of the imagination seem to warrant murder. And they don't all involve guns. You don't seem to see quite the same degree of violence in other impoverished communities, which makes me think there's more too it than just poverty and drugs, and certainly more to it than the availability of guns.

From what I've seen, there seems to be a palpable sense of fatalism within our young, black inner city populations, possibly stemming from centuries of marginalization and limited opportunities. Murder rates are going down, even in historically bad cities like DC and Baltimore, but that fatalism is still there. It was there 20 years ago when teenagers were shooting each other over starter jackets and air jordans, and it's still there today.

Am I wrong about this? This is just speculation based on my own observations. If I'm not, what can be done about it? Do gun control advocates think their proposals would fix this? From my experience with this kind of violence, I just don't know that it would. It seems like even if you got rid of all the guns in the country, these kids would still be stabbing each other in extraordinary numbers.

[davepc]

1. The one that ends the drug war.

But nobody wants to do that.

[brindleboxer]

2. But would it really?

Did you read my entire post? I tried to address that. I think certainly it would make a huge difference, but from what I've seen that readiness for violence exists independent of the drug economy. Though I guess you are right in that my post asked what would make a meaningful difference, and it certainly would.

[spin]

6. Our War on Drugs failed decades ago. ...

We waste a fortune every year to try to stop the smuggling of drugs like marihuana. Some drugs could be legalized and this would take a good deal of profit away from drug gangs. Taxes would generate money to treat addicts.

I should point out that I do not use drugs although I did experiment with marihuana in the 1970s.

I feel that the opposition by the pharmaceutical industry which makes a fortune selling drugs that can be far more dangerous than marihuana and the fact that many police agencies have a vested interest in fighting the drug war are largely the reasons that our War on Drugs has continued.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

[littlewolf]

7. the police are certainly vested. the ability to seize property

if it is bought with drug profits no matter if you can prove it or not cars, homes,
etc and then sold and the money goes back to the police. what a racket.

[holdencaufield]

12. I do!

[slackmaster]

3. Compel young people to go to school, work full time, or join the military, and pay them to do one.

No tolerance for truancy or criminality.

End the War On (some) Drugs.

Take resources away from foreign wars and apply them to urban renewal projects. Pay young people to get educated, or to work, but not to do nothing. End General Relief.

Destroy the gang culture.

[spin]

8. Sounds reasonable to me. (n/t)

[bluedigger]

22. Good thinking, Comrade.

We should also assess their abilities at the earliest possible point so that we can put them on the correct track to most efficiently serve the State.

[ZOB]

4. Ever seen the movie "Escape From New York"?

Put all of the gang members inside a big wall and isolate them from the rest of us.

Seriously, there's no easy solution...but there are things that would help over time:

1) Education. People with the tools to succeed are less likely to throw that chance of success away.

2) Minimum wage. Set a realistic minimum wage and both tie it to inflation and adjust it for cost of living in various metropolitan areas (the government does this for the per diem and locality wage adjustments it uses for federal employees, so the formula is already there) . People earning a living wage are less likely to throw their security away.

3) Jobs. Whether it's the government hiring people en masse to repair our crumbling infrastructure or a tax credit for companies to hire workers in the U.S., make employment more available. People who feel that they're contributing to a greater good are less likely to throw their potential career path away.

There are no magic solutions, but these are my big three.

[razee]

5. I think a huge part of the problem is no dads

This statistic shows the poverty rate of Black families with a female householder and no husband present in the U.S. from 1990 to 2011. In 1990, 48.1 percent of all Black families with a single mother in the U.S. lived below the poverty level

http://www.statista.com/statistics/205114/percentage-of-poor-black-families-with-a-female-householder-in-the-us/#

[slackmaster]

16. Welcome to DU, razee. You won't get much support for your position, and you may even be called out

...for posting it, but FWIW there are some here including me who agree with you.

My own personal experience over the last 55 years has shown repeatedly that boys (and to some extent girls) who are raised without a positive male to influence them and serve as a role model grow up lacking something.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. For 2010 there were 12,996 murders.

1,923 occurred during the commission of other felonies. 463 of those felonies were drug related. Drug crimes were not the most likely felony contributors to murder, robberies were. 780 robberies ended with murder.

6,351 murders were committed apart from other felonies. 3,215 arguments escalated to murder. The statistics I have don't specify how many if any of these involved mental illness.

In 4,656 cases of murder the circumstances are unknown.


Of the cases where the circumstances of the murder are known (8,274) the leading circumstance is an argument (39% of the cases.)

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl12.xls

[brindleboxer]

10. This is kind of what I was getting at

re: the fact that ending the war on drugs is not enough. That said, it's worth pointing out that those statistics probably do a poor job of reflecting the number of drug related homicides that are directly, or provably, drug related. A lot of drug murders are not in the course of a drug deal gone bad, but over debts or turf, which might not get reflected in the reporting of those homicides. The thing about black market economies is that you can't sue another drug dealer for breach of contract or for an injunction against them dealing on your block, so murder becomes the preferred method of settling these disputes.

Still, like I said in the OP, a lot of the homicides that I read and hear about in the inner city are not directly related to drugs, and are really just over dumb shit.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

11. The unknown 4,656

This is a large number, about 36% of all murders. Since law enforcement lists these as unknown I feel that it is likely that the majority of these (maybe 2/3) do involve another crime probably drugs most often. This would put the number of drug related murders more in the 2,000 to 2,500 range. Note also juvenile gang killings account for 673 murders and some of them may also be about drugs.

Situations that escalate to violence, IMHO, usually involve at least 1 person with a serious anger issue. A percentage of those who can't manage their anger have mental health issues. Mental health issues carry a stigma and often have inexact solutions. Often the drugs and treatments are dangerous and cause as many problems as they cure.

Aside from those issues, frustration due to lack of income and opportunity play a role. If you take into account suicides these impacts are probably doubled.

[russ1943]

19. Not exactly......................

U say For 2010 there were 12,996 murders.
No, that isn’t correct.
The FBI’s UCR specifically states; “ An estimated 14,748 persons were murdered nationwide in 2010.” http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/murdermain

Again, you have to read some of the text as well as look at the charts and tables to understand what the UCR depicts.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

20. The difference between...

...what is published at the link you gave versus the one I gave in post 9 is 1,752 murders. Some possibilities that may explain the difference: inclusion of non-negligent manslaughter, inclusion of data from outside the 50 states and DC...

[TheKentuckian]

13. End the drug war, decrease poverty, and if you really want results

I propose economic integration but ending the drug war alone would cut it incredibly, far more than any gun law.

[krispos42]

14. Giving up the drug war would destroy the gangs...

... and their violence, as well as their cultural influence that seems to make peer respect and public image something worth killing over.

It would also reduce a lot of the jail time and thus ruined employment and educational opportunities for the people that get arrested for private recreational drug use.

Finally, it would wipe out the alternative, crime-centered path to respect and money.



Past that, the two most effective things that I can think of is:

1. Universal background checks on all firearms transfers. I envision that after the background check, the gun dealer keeps the record of the sale in his shop while the federal system is purged of the transfer. If the police later find the gun, they get a warrant and go to the gun shop to find the buyer of the gun. With mandatory, universal background checks and the dealers keeping the sales records, the police can quickly trace a recovered gun to the most recent buyer, not just the last dealer that handled it.

I even think we should enable a class of federal licensee who would not be a stocking dealer, but would only facilitate private transfers and maintain the records. When a gun is bought, the buyer and seller each fill out a form, and the background check is run. The gun's serial number is associated with that particular transfer agent, so the cops can immediately get a warrant and records from the transfer agent.

2. Tack on a minimum "extra" prison term for crimes committed while carrying a gun, even if the gun isn't used or shown.

[brindleboxer]

15. I've wondered about this...

"2. Tack on a minimum "extra" prison term for crimes committed while carrying a gun, even if the gun isn't used or shown. "

As a lot of people on here seem to be in favor of enforcing stricter punishments for people who possess illegal guns or possess guns while committing crimes. How do we as liberals feel about the fact that this increased punishment would fall disproportionately, if not almost exclusively, on young, poor black men? Are we still okay with it? Mandatory minimums and draconian punishments for gun crime would seem to contribute to the process of mass incarceration, which in turn contributes to the societal instability that contributes to this violence in the first place? Is that really the answer?

[Remmah2]

17. Social issues are the foundation for violence issues.

Poverty does not discriminate by ethnicity.

It should not be viewed as death by firearms either. Death by poverty can also include drugs, alcoholism, inadequate health care, malnutrition.

Crime may very well be a mechanism for survival. I could not begrudge a person stealing because they are hungry, but I would draw the line on stealing to support a drug habit.

[sarisataka]

18. None

Gun control attempts to reduce the amount of damage due to violence by limiting the object often used in violence. It does nothing to address the violence.

GC is like a seat belt. In an accident,it gives you a chance for less injury, though you still may die. It does nothing to prevent the accident from happening.

GC proponents are for seat belts. Most 2A supporters are for accident avoidance.

[madville]

21. No gun control measure currently proposed

Will have any meaningful impact. They obtain guns illegally so the background check issue and mental health reporting don't matter. Most murders are commited with handguns, nothing addressing that has been proposed.

Like others have said, go to the root causes. No positive role models, failed drug war, cultures of violence, no jobs, perpetual poverty, no opportunities. I have great respect for individuals who can escape that environment.

Fixing the causes of the violence will do far more than pretending to do something about a tool of violence.

[Eleanors38]

23. During the latter 60s and early 70s, the Democratic Party made a serious effort...

to lessen the impacts of poverty, bad education and poor housing and nutrition. Most of these efforts have fallen by the wayside, and some were ineffective. The Party has largely turned away from large, multi-pronged efforts to get at the problems you identify and have not replaced them with much of anything else.

Except a preoccupation with gun-control.

The question goes to whether or not the Party and Democrats will undertake a systematic and programmatic approach which i.d.s these problems and proposes efforts which directly affect social ills. The evidence seems meager that we will in the short term due to unrelenting, hard & sustained opposition from the RW, and the Party's lack of stomach for not only taking up new plans, but for even proposing a philosophy and ideology. The GOP HAS established bright-line ideologies which are simple, straight-line and clear; Democrats have not. Perhaps they see no political advantage in societal change and seek only temporal political gain, largely had by the GOPer's extremism rhetoric which can lead to default political wins.

The Democratic Party needs a top-bottom overhaul.