Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumWhat is the argument against extended background checks?
What is the stated argument against them, as opposed to the assumed "argument."
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Though I'm not exactly clear what evil registration is supposed to cause - it's not like the government is seizing the cars we register.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)besides, it provides revenue for states and counties. Gun registration costs money and actually doesn't do anything.
The federal government is not involved in car registration.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)It's the people fighting against pollution.
That's a pitifully dumb argument. It's far simpler to simply levy a tax than require a good be registered and tax it when it is registered.
And this makes your previous sentence even dumber. Car registration costs money. States levy a tax at the time of registration to pay for it.
And to make your argument even worse, you're claiming something doesn't do anything when we don't have it. We don't have it. How is it supposed to do anything when it doesn't exist?
And you're operating under the illusion that the federal government can't ask the states for data?
Seriously dude, you're going to have to step up your game if you hope to succeed at all in debating this issue.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)and adds it to the general fund. Some states, and other countries, do have gun registration, so we do know if it is worth the effort on aiding investigations or not. It never has, but does provide a few jobs and makes nice public safety theater.
You need to step up your game.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)I thought it was to deter straw purchases and other illegal sales.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)but at least your rational for it is at least logical.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)system what would be impossible to enforce. That is the stated argument I have seen, which may or may not reflect my views.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)It's completely decentralized - it's left up to the states. So there's no effective enforcement.
Oh wait.....
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)he asked what the stated arguments were. My answer simply answered the question. Perhaps you missed this sentence
The cop only has to drive by a car to see if it is registered, which is required only if it is used on public roads. Don't have to register it to keep it on the farm or own it.
Gun registration compliance is a different thing. Canada's long gun registry was not really enforced, and some provinces, including Ontario, refused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Firearms_Registry
You might find table 2.2 interesting.
http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/A-Yearbook/2003/en/Small-Arms-Survey-2003-Chapter-02-EN.pdf
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Are you saying one of the arguments against background checks is they are an indirect registration? For example, if I purchase a handgun, the background check lets the government know that I am buying a handgun?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)but that is how I understand it. jo
denverbill
(11,489 posts)av8r1998
(265 posts)Do you mean universal background checks?
There are several...
One is how do you do a BG check on a private sale?
Answer...open NICS
2) background checks lead to registration
3) effectiveness.. straw purchasers and illegal gun sellers won't do them, so why put the onus on the law abiding.
4) what in someone's background would exclude them...
Criminal history?
Mental illness?
Driving record?
Credit history?
Marital status?
Race?
All of these things factor into what you pay for life insurance.
Why can't they apply to whether you're allowed to own a gun?
See where I'm going?
Look I'm actually in favor of them....
If the privacy, 4th and 5th amendment rights of buyer and seller are protected
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)...in registration of all firearms. I think most of us, save the most extreme RKBA proponents, are OK with background checks on private sales of used firearms. We have a system for them that works here in California.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)the only way to enforce background checks between private sellers is to require chain of custody documentation, which is a de facto registry. That might in itself be all right, but I don't know how they will enforce it. And if they do get it, they will be turning every gun owner in the country, about eighty million of them, into de facto gun dealers. If they want to state to assume responsibility for every transaction, they better come up with a good way to do it.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)and the data is not then put into a database, then I have no problem with background checks for all sales. If the data is saved into a data base it becomes gun registration. I am opposex to gun registration because it serves only two purposes: taxation and confiscation.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)And, of course, some states will do with background checks as is done with voting registration or abortion... delay and inconvenience and expense.
Look at what Scott Walker did in Wisconsin... you need a photo ID to vote, then he shut down half the DMV offices in Democratic areas. Oops, budget cuts, yanno.
And other stuff... remember the mandatory transvaginal (penetrative) ultrasound to get an abortion? And a waiting period? And then your doctor is forced to conceal true information (or dispense false information) about abortion.
How about same-day voter registration? That's going the way of the dodo, too. And the League of Women Voters doesn't do registration drives in some states; the laws are so convoluted and the punishments so strict that they can't run the risk.
I personally think the federally-licensed agent who runs the purchase through NICS should be on record for selling the gun, with the transfer agent keeping the details of the sold gun (make, model, serial number), as well as a copy of the photo ID of the buyer and the seller.
If the cops need to trace a gun found at a crime scene, it should be a routine matter to get a warrant for the seller's records and see who the gun was sold to and who sold the gun.
If the seller can't keep proper records, pull the license and toss them in jail.
Nobody likes being on a list. They get hacked too easily, or lost, or exposed by a mishandled FOIA request, or future lawmakers change the law and now what should have been private... isn't.
There's a bunch of stuff I don't want others to know, including the government. What I do in the bedroom, and with whom, for example. Who I vote for, what I read, what I eat, what I drink, what I write or draw or take photographs of. What I listen to or watch, or what I record. Where I go, the path and method I chose to get there, and how long I am there.
Etc.
If the government told people that they were going to register all personal computers (including laptops, tablets, and smartphones) to protect the children from child predators, I think there would be a huge outcry over it and it would not happen, regardless of the stories of molested/abused/murdered children that became part of the corporate media conversation.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)If you use credit cards or debit cards for most of your routine purchases then what you eat and drink are recorded with each purchase. It is possible for tracking cookies to report each website that you go to, unless you actively prevent it. Your cell phone constantly reports where it is, and some cars report where they are. The privacy we once enjoyed is rapidly becoming lost.
I agree that there is no valid reason for the gov't to know who owns what gun, but with databases they can know that anyway, unless you use cash.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)They have to buy it or subpeona it. It's also incomplete. For example, the stupid little barcoded keyring cards I have for CVS, Shop Rite, and Stop & Shop aren't mine. It's stupid that I need to have one to get a decent price on something (especially CVS, which is already way overpriced), so I caged them from my parents and grandparents.
It's not perfect. Obviously I leave a trace as I wander around. But there's a difference between sporadic knowledge, privately held, and complete knowledge documented by the government.
This is one of the issue with universal single payer health insurance, because then your entire medical history is stored by the federal government. But, unlike my preference in savory snacks, access to my complete medical history can and probably will be critically important to my life at some point. And the government is no worse than private industry at safeguarding date.
It's been argued that we've never really had privacy as a culture or as a people; hundreds or thousands of years ago, even in little villages, the gossips and such knew private information: who was cheating on who and with whom, who the father of the baby REALLY was, who had been having fights, who broke the neighbor's window, etc.
The difference is in the technology age. Now such things can be centrally stored, accessed at will from anyplace on Earth, kept literally forever, and correlated with a billion other people's activities to look for patterns.
The same people that get outraged because the NYPD wanted to retina-scan all the arrested Occupy protestors want the NYPD to keep a very careful tab on the guns that I own, up to and including having to bring them to the police precinct station yearly so they can be verified. As an example.
iiibbb
(1,448 posts)that Krispos wrote it.
I can never seem to help myself
Bazinga
(331 posts)there is prudence in public knowledge of who can own guns, but there is danger in knowing who does own guns.