High Capacity Magazine PSA

[LAGC]

While I still agree with Joe Biden that a good pump shotgun is more ideal for home-defense, has much more "stopping power" than a handgun, the author of that vid does make a point of whom a high-capacity mag ban would really affect.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. Good video, though I disagree with you about the shotgun vs handgun

[LAGC]

2. You think a handgun is better for home defense?

Granted, its more maneuverable in close quarters, but personally I'd want something that would likely stop an intruder on the first shot, not require multiple shots to center-mass.

But it is true that its a lot easier to safely store and retrieve a handgun from one of those quick-draw handgun safes than from a big bulky safe. Unless you have no kids at home and can just leave the shotgun loaded in the closet or something.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. At household ranges you get no effective spread

and in stressfire situations, accuracy is not all that good either.

If you get decent training and stay in practice, the handgun is a more effective choice. If you don't the shotgun may be better. Try shooting them without ear protection some time in an enclosed space. It may change your mind.

The homeowner should have used a triple tap. That way you have a rounds left for another intruder. He also did not reload. Good training will get you past those mistakes.

Final thought. NEVER NEVER NEVER store a firearm outside of some sort of locked container. Doesn't matter if you are living alone with no neighbors for miles (my most recent situation). In the video, the homeowner had a quick access safe. That is the right approach.

[gejohnston]

3. Cesare Beccaria

Last edited Thu May 2, 2013, 11:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Cesare Beccaria said it best in his opus On Crimes and Punishments:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one."

[rdharma]

4. Scary Propaganda!

Slide back...... and click.....click on trigger pull!

[krispos42]

6. 20% of murders are done by 2 or more people.

Something to consider.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

7. It seems like this could be a PSA for choosing a .45

and taking more time to aim after the first shot.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

8. A ban on high-capacity magazines would, of course, affect more than just pistol owners.

Whether the advice to get a shotgun for home defense, as opposed to a firearm that will take a magazine, can be compared by looking at various Youtube videos which have made such comparisons.

They can be found, for example, by searching for

Joe Biden shotgun advice

Although I disagree with the alleged "humor" of any of the mean-spirited Youtube posters that think that it is funny to see a light-weight person get kicked back by a shotgun blast, the videos are significant for understanding the amount of kick that a shotgun shooter will receive. The kick is more than what actors receive in the movies when they fire blanks.

IMO, as verified with the Youtube videos, a pistol or an AR-15 would be a better choice for most people. It's better, still, to avoid the problem if you can.

[sylvi]

9. Massad Ayoob recommends

a 20g with a "junior" buttstock for most females and anyone of smaller stature who insist on having a shotgun. You still retain a lot of stopping power in a more ergonomic and controllable weapon. Personally, I would still prefer the AR.

[krispos42]

10. They make some serious defensive rounds for the .410 shotshell nowadays

Thanks to the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor.

You can get triple-ought buckshot in 4- and 5-pellet loadings, #4 buck in 9-pellet loadings, and Winchester makes this effective-looking "disc" loading.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/shotshell-ammunition/Innovative/PDX1-Defender-Shotshell/Pages/default.aspx?c=410

A 2½ shell loaded with 3 discs and 12 pieces of BB birdshot, or a 3" shell loaded with 4 discs and 16 pieces of BB birdshot.

It seems that, since the buckshot flattens into a disc anyway (they're stacked in-line with no padding to cushion them), Winchester just decided to pre-flatten them and use the saved space to pour in some birdshot.


Modest recoil with serious stopping power. And you can get pump-action guns in .410 as well.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

11. Interesting to see that Winchester developed these to Compensate for Aim Error

An interesting video shows the spread from a S&W Governor.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/robert-farago/gun-review-smith-wesson-governor/

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Modern variations of the historical dimes load

IIRC that also got debunked at one point.

20ga for defense I can see for smaller people. 410 bore, I dont think so.

[krispos42]

26. At close range, it would be like getting shot with 4 .380 bullets.

That's not something to be easily disregarded.

And if it's the gun you have on hand, it sure as hell beats harsh language

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. I would probably use a can of beans or a bicycle tire rather than be considered a rude toter

[Lurks Often]

12. There is no one perfect type of gun for home defense or

for self defense.
What is a correct choice for the average adult male is the wrong choice for a small woman or elderly person. What is a correct choice for a rural household is the wrong choice for someone living in an apartment building or condo.

Pick the gun that is right for your specific situation, not mine or someone else's.

[GreenStormCloud]

13. I don't like the ad.

First, the add seeks to justify large capacity magazines on the basis of need and that is a mistake. It accepts the question, "Why do you need X?" That question should never be accepted. The U.S. does not have a Dept. of Needs. I get to have things because I want them and can afford them. I don't have to go to a bureaucrat and ask permission. The government has to prove the need for it to regulate, not me prove the need to have them.

Second. Criminals almost never behave like combat troops. Granted, the ad has the second criminal high on some drug. But even then they almost always turn tail and run when the shooting starts.

Third. The resident should have a spare magazine in the safe with his gun. Grab the gun in one hand and a spare mag in the other. Wife should also have a gun to protect herself and children if he loses his gunfight, or to assist him in shooting perps. Problem solved.

[rdharma]

14. I don't get it.....

.... the hammers on my SIGs don't go click ..... click.... when the trigger is pulled with the slide back.

That guy must have a "special" version!

[gejohnston]

15. the special effects guy was the

understudy of the guy that had Jim Rockford shoot down an airplane with a .38 and created the infinite ammo revolvers in the B westerns.

[rdharma]

16. I guess it was for dramatic effect......

Damn! That pistol is REALL, REALLY, EMPTY!

Gee! What happened to the "I can reload so fast that 30 round mags aren't an advantage" argument?

I guess that's only used for the mass murder scenarios.

[gejohnston]

17. it would ruin the dramatic effect

if he had a 1911 .45 with extra magazines, or a .44 mag with a speed loader. I think GSC put it best. Since it is a pistol, I doubt he would have a 30 round. One or two standard 15 round mags maybe.

[rdharma]

18. A SIG reloads as fast as a 1911.

But gee.... you guys are going to have to get your stories together.

Either the hi-cap mag makes no difference (like you argued with the AR) or it makes ALL the difference (like in this video).

Which is it?

[gejohnston]

19. doesn't matter if you don't have an extra mag

which this guy didn't. Don't do nuance well do you?

[rdharma]

22. Just as I thought........

High-cap "all important" or "no difference" ........ like y'all claimed earlier?

I don't do nuance, eh? No..... I just don't fall for propaganda.

[gejohnston]

24. uh huh

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. The issue in home defense is where do you store extra magazines.

If I just happen to have 2 in a holder on my weak side, that is one thing. If I took the weapon out of a safe, that is another.

When you need a firearm immediately, there is rarely time to put on a gun belt with a holder and extra magazines. Besides it would make you a rude toter, and we can't have that.

[rdharma]

25. So the high-cap mag makes all the difference........

........ except in mass killings where you argue that lower-cap magazines can be loaded just as fast?

Jeesh! Make up your minds! It's one or the other.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. You are better than that nonsense

If you have magazines at hand, changing them is fast and easy. Here is a video that illustrates that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2697623

In most home defense situations, you only have the magazine in the gun and nothing to reload with, regardless or magazine size.

[rdharma]

29. The fastest reload.......

.... is the one you don't have to make.

Surely you're smart enough to realize that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. Its a diminishing returns kind of thing

A standard magazine for a modern sporting rifle is 20-30 rounds. However, large capacity snail drum types are prone to jamming and failure.

The video is a pretty good illustration of real life...

[rdharma]

31. Video is scary BS!

But effective on stupid people!

[rdharma]

23. Do they make 7 round double row mags for SIGs?

Never seen one.