(Canada) Decision to reclassify Swiss firearms (SG-550 or SG-551) angers gun owners

[Electric Monk]

WTF does someone need a gun like that for anyway, other than waging war? Impressing your fellow gun nut buddies?

http://o.canada.com/news/national/decision-to-reclassify-swiss-firearms-angers-gun-owners/

(snip)

Whether owners of those guns, which cost between $3,000 to $4,000, will receive compensation is unclear. Shawn Bevins, executive vice-president of the National Firearms Association, said he spoke to a senior government official on Wednesday and was told that there would be none.

(snip)

For the past 13 years, the Swiss Arms family of rifles, whose models include the Classic Green, Black Special and Red Devil, were classified as either restricted or non-restricted.

But the RCMP’s firearms classification table was recently updated to state that after a “thorough inspection” of the rifles, officials deemed them to be “variants” of a prohibited firearm commonly known as the SG-550 or SG-551.

Despite repeated requests, RCMP officials refused to comment Thursday on the decision to re-classify the rifles or how they intended to notify owners of the change and what their expectations were of those owners.

much more

Bevins? That wouldn't be the same Bevins who posts here on occasion, would it? Or is the Bevins who posts here just a fan?

[villager]

1. Copyedit note: You used the redundant phrase, "angers gun owners"

[bossy22]

2. because they are fun to shoot

why does anyone need an M3 capable of 150+ MPH?- you don't, but it's alot of fun to drive

[Electric Monk]

14. I've heard that cocaine and heroin can be fun, too. Some people enjoy kiddie porn.

That doesn't mean any of those should be legal.

[clffrdjk]

19. So now gun ownership is akin to destructive drug use and child molestation.

Those are some really great debate skills you have. Makes me all warm and fuzzy with desire to give you the help you would need to pass your laws.

[Electric Monk]

22. Bossy said "fun" was enough reason. I disagree, and think fun doesn't come close to enough reason.

nt

[clffrdjk]

27. Yea, that does not explain away your idiotic comparison.

I really don't feel the "need" to explain my use of a right to you.

[gejohnston]

23. failed analogy

since firearms are used in one third of Canadian murders, most of them with illegally imported handguns, and very rarely with any firearm owned by a someone with a valid PAL, be it unrestricted, restricted, or for prohibited weapons (mostly grandfathered machine guns) and even fewer yet by a rifle of any kind.
Guns have more social utility and are less harmful than either of the drugs, including alcohol, when used responsibly.
No one is mentally or physically harmed by making a firearm. The same can't be the same for kiddie porn. Individual humans are harmed in its manufacture.
Analogy fail, massive logical fallacy.

[Electric Monk]

26. Did I say making? This OP was about ownership and use, and where can the line be drawn.

Obviously you think there should be no line, to post like that and think you "win".

I'm saying I agree with the Canadian gov't decision (if they stick to it) that there should be a line somewhere, and that guns like this belong in the "you want to play with those? join the army" category.

[clffrdjk]

28. So what makes this gun special?

You have already been proven wrong on the select fire issue, do you have any others?

You find it reasonable for guns that have been approved for years to suddenly be deemed illegal and demand the destruction of them without any compensation?

[Electric Monk]

30. Proven wrong? I'm not a gun expert or Cdn gun law expert. You're arguing with wikipedia.

I'm not demanding anything, either. I posted a news article and my opinion.

Better luck next time

[clffrdjk]

37. No, I am asking you a few questions to get you to expand on your opinion.

Last edited Fri Feb 28, 2014, 10:40 AM - Edit history (1)

Yes you posted a news article, good job that took effort.
Then you made that idiotic assertion that guns were like destructive drug use and child molestation.
Then you made the claim that these are automatic rifles (pewpewpewpewpew not pew..pew..pew)
Next up you tried to prove this with that horrible missrepresentation of a wiki article, hopefully with time you can fix that reading comprehension issue
Then you said you supported the decision, all I asked you was why and you flatly refused to answerer that.
Did I miss the response where you actually proved your point and supported your opinion?

[Electric Monk]

46. My analogy was the similar mentality of hardcore users, that "fun" was reason enough

even with the possibility of causing great harm to themselves or others. They disregard the potential harm part because it can be "fun". Just like you're doing here.

As to your claim of a horrible misrepresentation of that wiki article, I gave a direct un-edited quote and a link.

[gejohnston]

47. that is where your analogy fails

kiddie porn is harmful period, there is no potential about it.
A firearm is not, it is closer to alcohol or a car, as being benign or a social good when used responsibly and harmful when it isn't.

[Electric Monk]

48. I'm discussing the mentality of the users, with "fun" being justification enough. nt

[gejohnston]

50. that's when your analogy

went from being just a false equivalent to asinine, libelous, irrational, disgusting, that makes the idiotic rants from the likes of Piers Morgan and Ted Nugent look sane.

[Electric Monk]

53. Classic projection. You got called a name once and it stung? Call someone else it! LOL. nt

[pablo_marmol]

51. Question -

If you were a fly on the wall, listening to the following conversation, how would you react?

Person A: "I like dancing on floats in gay pride parades wearing body paint and speedos."

Person B: "I don't care. I think that behavior should be outlawed."

Person A: "Why? I'm not hurting anyone, and I find it FUN."

Person B: "Screw your fun."

[Electric Monk]

52. You lost me at "I'm not hurting anyone"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
(for proper formatting click the link and then sort by, etc)

Country Total (calculated) Homicides Suicides Unintentional Undetermined Sources and notes
Honduras 64.8 (incomplete) 64.8 (2010) unavailable unavailable unavailable Guns in Honduras[26]
Venezuela 50.90 (mixed years) 39.00 (2000) 1.10 (2000) 0.40 (2000) 10.40 (2000) Guns in Venezuela[70]
El Salvador 41.11 (incomplete) 39.90 (2008) 1.06 (1999) 0.15 (1999) unavailable Guns in El Salvador[18]
Jamaica 39.74 (mixed years,incomplete) 39.40 (2009) 0.34 (1995) unavailable unavailable Guns in Jamaica[33]
Swaziland 37.16 (incomplete) 37.16 (2004) unavailable unavailable unavailable Guns in Swaziland[62]
Guatemala 36.38 (incomplete) 34.8 (2010) 2.30 (2006) unavailable unavailable Guns in Guatemala[25]
Colombia 28.14 (mixed years) 27.1 (2010) 0.87 (2009) 0.14 (1999) 0.03 (1999) Guns in Colombia[12]
South Africa 21.51 (mixed years) 17.00 (2007) 3.81 (1999) 0.35 (1999) 0.35 (1999) Guns in South Africa[59]
Brazil 19.03 (mixed years) 18.1 (2008) 0.74 (2000) 0.18 (2000) 0.01 (2000) Guns in Brazil[8]
Panama 17.60 (mixed years) 16.10 (2010) 0.99 (2002) 0.06 (2002) 0.45 (2002) Guns in Panama[47]
Uruguay 14.01 (mixed years) 3.43 (2009) 7.03 (2000) 3.46(2000) 0.09 (2000) Guns in Uruguay[69]
Mexico 11.17 (mixed years) 10.00 (2010) 0.69 (2001) 0.47 (2001)) 0.01 (2001) Guns in Mexico[40]
United States 10.3 (2011) 3.60 (2011) 6.30 (2011) 0.30 (2011) 0.10 (2011) Guns in United States[68]
Argentina 10.05 (mixed years) 3.0 (2008) 2.79 (2001) 0.64 (2001) 3.62 (2001) Guns in Argentina[1]
Montenegro 8.55 (2009, incomplete) 2.06 (2009) 6.49 (2009) unavailable unavailable Guns in Montenegro[42]
Paraguay 8.16 (mixed years) 7.30 (2009) 0.58 (2000) 0.26 (2000) 0.02 (2000) Guns in Paraguay[48]
Nicaragua 7.29 (mixed years) 5.90 (2008) 0.46 (2002) 0.91 (2002) 0.02 (2001) Guns in Nicaragua[45]
Costa Rica 6.28 (mixed years) 4.6 (2006) 1.27 (2002) 0.07 (2002) 0.24 (2000) Guns in Costa Rica[13]
Greece 4.76 (mixed years) 0.59 (2009) 0.97 (2009) 0.08 (2009) 0.00 (1998) Guns in Greece[24]
Serbia 3.90 (2010) 0.62 (2010) 2.81 (2010) 0.18 (2010) 0.29 (2010) Guns in Serbia[55]
Switzerland 3.84 (mixed years) 0.52 (2010) 3.15 (2008) 0.10 (1998) 0.07 (1994) Guns in Switzerland[64]
Chile 3.73 (mixed years) 2.2 (2005) 1.09 (2002) 0.4 (2002) 0.04 (2001) Guns in Chile[11]
Peru 3.73 (mixed years) 2.60 (2009) 0.11 (2000) 0.90 (2000) 0.12 (2000) Guns in Peru[49]
Finland 3.64 (2010) 0.26 (2010) 3.34 (2010) 0.02 (2010) 0.02 (2010) Guns in Finland[20]
Croatia 3.54 (mixed years) 1.1 (2009) 2.35 (2010) 0.07 (2010) 0.02 (2010) Guns in Croatia[14]

etc

[clffrdjk]

54. So now we are murderers too.

Keep it up you are obviously winning people over to your side.

[pablo_marmol]

55. Losing someone who dishes slurs

and is truth aversive? No big deal.

[clffrdjk]

49. You really want to stick with that eh.

Ok then complete your analogy, show me how me being a gun owner is akin to dangerous drug use and child molestation. Where is your proof of harm that I have caused, because as we all know child porn and heroin are harmful in every instance, what harm have I done to deserve to be put in with those groups?

You gave a direct quote out of context and other posters used your very link to show you your error. That fact that you refuse to admit it is most telling.


So no other comment on why you support the deeming of a legal guns illegal and the subsequent requirement of turning of those guns in all without any compensation?

[gejohnston]

32. There is a difference between drawing a line and moving an established line.

and they drew a line a long time ago and not always for the best reasons. The RCMP's decision isn't logical and your "join the army" isn't rational since the rifle is not a military weapon. If that is the only reason, there is no compelling State, or Crown, interest or any other rational reason in banning them. It is a semi automatic copy of one, one that is in about a couple of hundred thousand Swiss homes, and even more that have been converted to semi auto after their obligation is finished.
and neither they nor you provided a rational reason behind it. Quite frankly, an arbitrary decision by a police official and not an act of Parliament take away property without due process or compensation is unjust and undemocratic. How any such thing is allowed in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms escapes me. That is why a constitutional republic is superior to a parliamentary system. While their system of health care is OK, their system sucks and all of their parties are as bought and paid for by corporations as much as ours.
But then, Canada's founders were not fans of the Enlightenment or the concept of individual freedom, they preferred to be subjects of the Crown and other "born betters", which is why the conservatives left for Canada after the revolution.

In fact, the gun prohibition side is void of any logic, reason, or rationality. That is why they depend on emotion and logical fallacies, and the big bucks from authoritarian nut cases like Bloomberg. That is also why the main spokesperson is a hired PR executive from Monsanto that is MDA.
True you are not an expert, or even have a clue about Canadian gun laws, and I doubt you know anything about US gun laws, or firearms. That is one reason most gun laws any were have a lot of really absurd provisions, because they are written by people who don't know what they are talking about.

[beevul]

33. Pretty much everything was once legal. Essentially, everything starts out that way.

Cocaine was once legal.

Heroine too.

Someone, somewhere, at one point in time or another, made the case that all those things should be illegal.

You are free to do the same.


Make your case why any particular gun should be illegal, or don't, but don't be expecting anyone to justify their choices to you. Thinking that anyone should is both arrogant, and ignorant.

Frankly, its none of your damn business.

[gejohnston]

3. they are not machine guns

They are like any other semi auto rifle with a pretty wooden stock. It is pretty presumptuous to question someone's "need" for anything especially something you know nothing about. IOW, your question is invalid and silly. Since the RCMP wants them turned in, without compensation, the owners of these C$4K rifles and the NFA have every right to be pissed off.

[Electric Monk]

4. The wiki link says select fire: Safe, 1, 3, or 20.

The rifle is hammer-fired and has a trigger mechanism with an ambidextrous safety and fire selector switch that has 4 settings: "S"—safe, "1"—single fire, "3"—3 round burst and "20"—fully automatic fire.

and that's in the basic description, before they start talking about the military variants.

Also has a folding stock, bayonet attachment, and can fire rifle grenades, plus an optional larger grenade launcher.

[gejohnston]

5. If they were full auto

they would be prohibited since 1977. Prior to that their machine gun restrictions were much more lax than their handgun restrictions or our machine gun restrictions. In fact, some of their unrestricted shotguns would be NFA/Title 2 here.
You are talking about military variants.
Also has a folding stock- So? The Tavor is also unrestricted, is a bullpup that is shorter than this one.
bayonet attachment-So?
and can fire rifle grenades-any rifle can fire one, and is NFA under US law as a destructive device and prohibited under Canadian law. Rifle grenades haven't been used for 40 years.
plus an optional larger grenade launcher-that has to be mounted, and is prohibited in Canadian law, and NFA under US law. Plus, the few companies that make them, have a monopoly on them and they are not going to sell you or your local gun store one.

[NYC_SKP]

10. Wikipedia excerpt here:

bold emphasis is mine.

Civilian variants

The SG 550/551/552/553 are also available in semi-automatic only configurations, intended for the civilian shooting market. Among these variants are the SG 550/551/552 SP, PE 90 and SIG Sport rifles. The SG 550 series is available with either 178 mm or 254 mm (1 and 1:10 in) twist rate barrels. Rifles designated SG 55x-1 have a 254 mm (1:10 in) twist rate, while models marked SG 55x-2 have a 178 mm (1 in) twist rate. The ordnance GP 90 ammunition is optimized for use with the original Swiss 254 mm (1:10 in) rifling twist rate.
A SIG556 Classic equipped with an EOTech 512 holographic weapon sight and STANAG magazine.

Due to import restrictions, the American civilian market required a partially American-made version assembled by SIG SAUER, Inc. in Exeter, New Hampshire. The SIG556 is designed to meet these requirements. The 556 lacks full-auto capability and the overall length is 940 mm (37.0 in). One difference is a new aluminum lower receiver that accepts M16 STANAG magazines and an M4 telescoping buttstock. The barrel's twist rate is 178 mm (1 in).[7]

There are many variants of this rifle offered for sale. The first variant was sold with an aluminum Picatinny rail on the upper receiver and a series of plastic rails on the handguard. The market pushed SIG to produce the rifle with the slimmer profile 551-type handguards and a hooded front sight; this version is marketed as the SIG556 Classic.[8] Several folding stock models have been released as well as variants with railed forend combinations. Another major variant is a SIG556 DMR. This features a 21 in (533.4 mm) long barrel without flash suppressor, upgraded, a match type trigger, Magpul PRS stock and older style plastic handguards. SIGP556 pistol variants with 10 in barrels are also available. In 2012 the SIG556R or SIG556 Russian chambered for the 7.62x39mm cartridge and using AK-pattern box magazines was introduced.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550#Civilian_variants

[NYC_SKP]

16. Again. Your wiki describes the military variant.

You are so ass backwards on this.

The description you cite IS of the military variant:

The SG 550 is a selective fire 5.56×45mm NATO assault rifle

NATO assault rifles aren't sold legally to just anyone.

You've been listening to your own side's bullshit that you think NATO assault weapons are what the Assault Weapon Ban was about.

Um. No.

In your own link, there's a little section entitled "civilian variants": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550#Civilian_variants

I don't expect a response, you guys never respond when corrected with facts.

[Straw Man]

31. And your link says this ...

For the past 13 years, the Swiss Arms family of rifles, whose models include the Classic Green, Black Special and Red Devil, were classified as either restricted or non-restricted.

But the RCMP’s firearms classification table was recently updated to state that after a “thorough inspection” of the rifles, officials deemed them to be “variants” of a prohibited firearm commonly known as the SG-550 or SG-551.

They are the semi-auto civilian version of the select-fire military weapon. They fire singly only -- no burst or full-auto. Still, that's apparently too close for comfort for the Canadian government, despite the fact that these rifles' firepower is no greater than that of a civilian-only semi-auto such as the Ruger Mini-14.

[Loudly]

6. But they get the thanks of a gun-reduced society. That's worth a lot! n/t

[gejohnston]

7. actually no,

How many seats do the Liberal Party have in Parliament? Rural ridings outnumber urban ones. While handgun owners are more likely to be white collar professional suburban/urban target shooters, long gun owners tend to be more rural. You do the math.

[Loudly]

8. What subset are deranged American-style militia types who denounce universal medical care?

Yeah, those ones may be disgruntled.

[gejohnston]

13. none,

but universal health care started with two of the more rural provinces on their own without the federal government. Saskatchewan in 1948 and Alberta in 1950. Ironically, Alberta is probably the most conservative province today.

As for US universal health care, I think it would be better received if county health departments were directly funded to expand their service. Why do I say that? From what I read, they trust local and county governments more than the feds.
In my neck of the woods, where I call home not to be confused with my required stays in Florida, we didn't go to private doctors to get most of our school shots. The teachers lined us up in the hall way while the school nurse and the county health department gave mass inoculations. The hospital I was born it, and the only hospital in the county, was and is owned by the county government. We also have county mental health and family planning.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. re: "WTF does someone need a gun..."

Why does someone need...
- a 1955 MB 300SL http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/mercedes_benz/300sl/1623861.html
- a Zenith Defy Xtreme Men's Sea Tourbillon http://www.smartbargains.com/detail.asp?iq=1&bo_products_id=0&bo_products_variance_id=198382&promotion_code=CBD198382
- an ounce of Saffron http://shop.khanapakana.com/the-gathering-of-saffron-brand-pure-spanish-saffron-zafran-1oz-28grams/?gclid=CKOa0LbY7bwCFdI7Ogod6mIAaA


It's fundamentally wrong for the government to take private property without compensating it's owners.
That's one of the reasons we have that part of the fifth amendment.

[Duckhunter935]

11. That is a sweet car

I need it

[Electric Monk]

15. See post #14. Some people "need" kiddie porn, apparently, too. Doesn't mean it should be legal.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. And obviously you "need" to keep posting this.

Your hard drive should be monitored.

[Electric Monk]

24. Define "this". Are you accusing me of pedophilia for thinking "fun" can be a bad thing?

You've got it quite backwards. I'm saying fun can also be harmful or bad.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

38. It's obvious that you use pedophilia as an example of harm but your analogy is wrong.

Child pornography is harmful in each and every instance. It is impossible to create of utilize without harming. Gun use, on the other hand, can be beneficial, even morally necessary. That being said, the indiscriminate nature of your comment, relying as it does on imagery meant to invoke as much repugnance and ill will as possible, has no benefit in its creation or use.

[Eleanors38]

18. You seem quite interested in "kiddie porn," having mentioned it twice.

I don't see how that is relevant to gun discussions.

[Electric Monk]

20. How many times have you talked about guns? LOL nt

[SQUEE]

57. They own guns..are intrested in guns, and use guns.

Might want to step back from that analogy

[beevul]

34. The existence of "kiddie porn", is proof of harm...

The existence of "kiddie porn", is proof of harm being done to someone.

The existence of a gun, not so much.


Thanks for playing.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

41. I'd'nit

[rrneck]

29. WHAT!?!?!

An eighty two thousand dollar fucking watch?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

42. Boys need toys

[gejohnston]

43. does the Zenith keep time as well as a $34

Timex?
http://gizmodo.com/5983427/why-a-10-casio-keeps-better-time-than-a-10000-rolex

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

44. AFAIK...

...the Zenith may not even do as well.
I aspire to nothing more pricey than:
http://www.chase-durer.com/features/fighterblk_blk_features.aspx

[NYC_SKP]

12. "This is a ghost gun" (this is your brain on self-promotion through fear)

Now what we got here is a failure to communicate. The gun in question, a sig, as I understand it, is not a fully automatic weapon, it's just scary lookin', like in them movies!!!

[Eleanors38]

21. meh. It's a semi-auto rifle. And expensive, too.

[gejohnston]

25. My question is

why doesn't the RCMP allow the owners to apply for a Prohibited PAL and let them register them as prohibited weapons?

[SkatmanRoth]

35. Let me guess, the registration records in Canada identify the owners

But I am assured that gun registration in the United States will never result in guns being confiscated by the Government.

[gejohnston]

40. since the long gun registration

which, which really means unrestricted firearms, was repealed, the RMCP was supposed to destroy those records.

[clffrdjk]

45. "Was supposed to"

That is really reassuring. In this new digital age once information is created it will never be totally destroyed.

[ileus]

36. Nothing wrong with owning a counter assault rifle.

Fun to shoot, fun to compete with. They make for great family outing plinkers or just plain casual shooting.

Of course they can also double as counter assault firearms for protecting home and family.

[hack89]

39. So if it had a traditional wooden stock and foregrip it would be ok?

what is it about black plastic that upsets grabbers so much?

[Duckhunter935]

56. Its the adjustable stock

we need to take adjustable seats out of cars