Girls from 2013 Glock Shooting Team

[The Straight Story]

Last edited Fri Apr 11, 2014, 04:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Are these young ladies gun humpers/have small penises?

Are they crazy gun nuts who want to run around shooting people? Something, from what I learned on DU, is wrong with these ladies and they need help because they actually enjoy guns. What can we do to save them, or better yet, demean and shame them (since that seems to the preferred method of discourse)?

And let's not forget the USA Shooting team: http://www.usashooting.org/

Girls from Glock Shooting Team talking about their career in sport shooting world

[upaloopa]

1. We have a sick gun culture in this country

Doesn't matter what these folks do.

[The Straight Story]

2. So these ladies are sick? Do they need a dr?

It is amazing how we feel about people who don't do things we do (kind of reminds me of judgmental religious types who go out of their way to keep others from sinning).

Is it sick because people defend the right to own something? You can own any number of things that can be used in harmful ways - if people tried to take away something you owned you might be considered part of a 'sick x/y/z culture' (or wanted to prevent you from ever owning it).

Less than one percent of people with guns harm others - we all can have problems with those few without being biased against the rest (part of what being progressive is all about).

[upaloopa]

3. When we can't do something about gun

violence in this country and people can openly carry guns wherever they please and daily shootings are no longer news worthy we have a sick gun culture.

[The Straight Story]

6. Less than one percent of gun owners are a problem, maybe you are the one with an issue here

No matter what subject you can find there will be less than one percent (and greater than zero) who are a problem - cars, guns, knives, christians, muslims, (any religion really), etc and so on.

This 'culture' you are referring to is what some people call 'freedom'. Now maybe you are fine with bans on abortions, drinking, gay marriage, pot, guns, and so on but some of us really like to be allowed by a few people in power to be able to buy/do things.

If you find freedom to be a sick culture there is not much I can say really.

There are over 45-50 million people who own guns in the US and your wanting to call them all names (like 'sick') and put new restrictions on them all because of what a few do. Where I come from that is called bias with a touch of stereotyping.

If you have a problem with people misusing guns, take that up with the few who do and not the many who don't. And I will do the same with folks like Muslims when a few of them do terrorist acts (ie, I won't jump on the "let's blame a whole group for what a few do and call them names and pass laws about them&quot .

[upaloopa]

9. Reality is not based on your reasoning

[clffrdjk]

30. That is correct

His reasoning is based on reality.

Nowhere in his post did I see a twisting of reality to fit the reasoning, the same can not be said for much of the banning crowd.

[blueridge3210]

8. I'm confused.

Do we arrest people who commit crimes with guns?

Do we charge them for these criminal offenses and follow due process while pursuing conviction?

Do we incarcerate some of those convicted and deprive them of their freedom?

Do we have laws that prevent those with felony convictions or adjudicated mentally ill from legally owning firearms?

It looks like we already are doing something about gun violence. Regarding open carry; the vast majority of those who open carry are not the problem when it comes to criminal use of firearms. The focus on reporting criminal use of firearms ebbs and flows based on many factors and is not, in and of itself, indication of a "sick gun culture".

What actions would you, specifically, propose to address the issue of criminal use of firearms or to reduce firearms deaths not related to legitimate self defense cases?

[upaloopa]

10. Your playing games I won't bite

You read what I said it stands for itself

[blueridge3210]

11. Surely you have some ideas or proposals?

You posted that we, as a society, are doing nothing to address gun violence. I'm just curious what your ideas are.

[upaloopa]

12. There are a set of bills in congress that are being

blocked they need to pass

[blueridge3210]

14. Again, which bills? What do they propose. What are your thoughts about them? (NT)

[DonP]

15. "I won't bite" Too late

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. "When we can't do something about gun violence...and people openly carry..."

I doubt people who openly carry are the ones inciting any significant degree of gun violence nor are those inclined to criminality likely to openly carry.

[NYC_SKP]

28. What's your beef with open carry? Can you cite a mass shooting or school shooting by an OC person?

I think the people walking around with ARs are stoopid assholes, frankly.

But I grew up in a region where seeing a six-shooter on someone's hip was no big deal.

I suspect most of this gun dread, gun hate, gun phobia comes from people who never handled one or grew up around hunting or the shooting sports.

Nobody on this board wants to see violence, but blaming the gun is just plain ignorant.

We all agree for tighter regulation and removing guns from the wrong people, but taking guns away from everyone is never ever going to happen and even if guns disappeared over night, we'd still have all the underlying causes of violence.

What say we identify and treat these, eh? (along with some sensible gun regs)

[Jgarrick]

4. Is what these women do "sick"?

[upaloopa]

5. When we can't do anything about gun violence

and prople are openly carrying guns wherever they want and daily shootings are no longer news we have a sick gun culture

[Jgarrick]

7. Non-responsive. Is what *these* women do "sick"?

[mokawanis]

17. So the Glock shooting team is proof that we don't have a gun problem in the US?

I didn't realize it was that simplistic. Thanks for clearing things up!

[blueridge3210]

19. Reading comprehension fail.

Nothing was said about the team with regards to the presence, or lack thereof, of a gun problem in the US. The question posed was , in essence, were the team members defective in some way due to their hobby.

[gejohnston]

20. we don't have a gun problem,

we have a gang problem. Stricter gun laws only affect people who are not the problem.

[Jgarrick]

24. No it's not...but then, I made no such assertion, did I?

[Jenoch]

16. What does the activities of these ladies have to do with what you wrote in your post?

[beevul]

35. If you guys stopped taking the position of "gun control or nothing"...

If you guys stopped taking the position of "gun control or nothing", maybe you'd get something done about gun violence, rather than getting nothing.

[friendly_iconoclast]

44. Activism is hard. Developing an unearned feeling of superiority is easy

All you need is an assault keyboard and the willingness to slaughter
billions of innocent electrons...

[Submariner]

18. Life must be really boring for the poor saps

that get their jollies from holding a steel pipe that spits out a chunk of metal.

While channel surfing awhile back I saw a show on History channel called "Shooters", or something like that, and the shooters were shooting at fruits, vegetables, and jugs of water. When they hit those targets and they exploded, the shooters went absolutely nuts hooping and hollering like it was the coolest thing ever. Crazy behavior. It struck me as very immature behavior for adults, some in their 60s like myself.

So the thought of these child-like adults roaming around in public with a chunk of pipe in their pockets that shoots out a wad of metal is very disturbing imho.

[The Straight Story]

21. Says the person who was 'channel surfing'

Some like to hold a remote in their hands and watch what others do on a rectangular electronic device, it is how they get their jollies. Watching people get killed/beaten/robbed/etc on tv is much more wholesome than being outdoors with friends target shooting and practicing.

Before that I suppose folks were all up in arms over archery and competitions related to that.

[gejohnston]

22. So are golfers and

tennis players equally immature because they get their jollies by beating the shit out of a ball?

So the thought of these child-like adults roaming around in public with a chunk of pipe in their pockets that shoots out a wad of metal is very disturbing imho.

I find faux liberals making sophomoric moral pronouncements disturbing.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. Precision shooting is very challenging. Things that are challenging attract people

who are performance oriented. Personally, the sport of race cars eludes me. The thought of watching someone make 500 miles worth of left turns doesn't strike me as intriguing but I'm not of the mind to judge it infantile, pointless or boring.

[ileus]

25. all the do is practice to kill...so of course they're gun humpers.

[Niceguy1]

26. hmmm

Its easy to blame the guns..but unless they have some harry potter like magic to change people when they touch them it is human that is problem...absent a gun they are still going to r ry to kill people.

[NYC_SKP]

27. True. Basically, people with no interest in guns want others not to have them. Period.

And willingly neglect to look at facts that indicate that the problem is not with guns, per se, but with the kinds of people who abuse having guns.

They will not win this.

[politicman]

29. lots of guns make shootings inevitable - its as simple as that

All you gun nuts miss the argument.

The fact that there is a law saying that everyone has the right to bears arms is the problem.

Look when you have between 200-300 million guns in a country of 300 million people, it becomes like the wild west.

Think of the bad consequences of letting every tom, dick and harry own a gun.

1) If someone has a problem or gets into a fight, they now have access to pull out a gun and shoot their opponent like a coward. After a fist fight, at least someone can walk away, but after a shooting, odds are someone is dead.

2) Mentally ill people and psychopathic people have access to an instrument that they can use to kill masses of people from a distance.
Not too mention if a goof guy with a gun tries to stop them, many more people can get hurt in the crossfire

(remember that shoot out in new York where trained police officers accidentally gunned gown people with the crossfire)


Here in Australia we have crime and some people have access to guns (both legal and illegal), but I can guarantee you that not once in my whole 36 years have I feared that I would be the victim of a shooting. We have gun laws here, and because of this I can rest assured that what ever crime I happened to be the victim of, the chances that it would be a shooting are extremely remote.

[clffrdjk]

31. Your argument is not based on reality

All you gun nuts miss the argument.
Your argument is not based on reality see bellow

The fact that there is a law saying that everyone has the right to bears arms is the problem.
The law does not say that.

Look when you have between 200-300 million guns in a country of 300 million people, it becomes like the wild west.
What was the crime rate in the Wild West? What is the current trend of crime rates in the US?

Think of the bad consequences of letting every tom, dick and harry own a gun.
Let's leave our imaginations out of this, and stick with the facts.

1) If someone has a problem or gets into a fight, they now have access to pull out a gun and shoot their opponent like a coward. After a fist fight, at least someone can walk away, but after a shooting, odds are someone is dead.
Do you have any stats showing that this happens and the rate of it happening from year to year, or are you just yelling blood in the streets?

2) Mentally ill people and psychopathic people have access to an instrument that they can use to kill masses of people from a distance.
And that is truly sad, if only we had some way to legally judge a person a hazard to themselves and or the public. (Here is a hint, we do but we stigmatize it to a point that no one wants to either seek help or blow the whistle. That is what we need to work on.)

Not too mention if a goof guy with a gun tries to stop them, many more people can get hurt in the crossfire (remember that shoot out in new York where trained police officers accidentally gunned gown people with the crossfire)

Do you have any incidences where that has actually happened? And let's leave out trigger happy cops, they feel no consequences for their actions.


Here in Australia we have crime and some people have access to guns (both legal and illegal), but I can guarantee you that not once in my whole 36 years have I feared that I would be the victim of a shooting. We have gun laws here, and because of this I can rest assured that what ever crime I happened to be the victim of, the chances that it would be a shooting are extremely remote.
I am glad that is working for you, now why don't you let me do my own thing over here, I can guaranty that I have never hurt anyone and will never hurt anyone who does not attack me.

[politicman]

33. my response

It may not exactly be a law, but gun nuts hold onto the second amendment as their right to bear arms (trying to get technical when addressing a point doesn't advance the discussion, it just diverts it, so keep that in mind next time you want to get too technical)

Wow, you really think that having 200-300 million guns in a country with a population of 300 million does not provide the conditions for the wild west to emerge again?

No I don't have stats, but I do have the stat that 30,000 deaths are caused every year from guns. Whether it is some guy in a movie theatre that gets into an argument about texting and ends up pulling out his gun and shooting someone, or whether it is gang violence where a drive by shooting ends up cutting down a 3 year old girl caught in the fire, the point is that guns can kill from a distance and because they are in plentiful supply in the U.S, they are used more often they should be.

Mental illness may be stigmatized and no one wants to seek help, but the fact that guns are plentiful that the mentally ill can easily get their hands on them is a tragedy.

No I don't have specific instances where crossfire has happened but I am sure there are some.
But to expand on my point, if trained police officers get into a shootout and hit innocent people in the crossfire, if you can't imagine a situation where a 'good guy' with a gun will pull out his gun and attempt to stop a mass murderer which could result in many more people getting hit in the crossfire?

Add this point to the above: with so many guns in the country and anyone being able to have access to the surplus guns everywhere, do you not think that cops get shit scared when they pull over a car or when they attend a call?

For crying out loud, most times cops pull a car over, they have to approach the car with their hands near their guns just in case someone in the car might be armed, they feel the need to draw their weapons every time someone in the car makes a move bcause the cops are scared that the movement might be the driver reaching for a gun.

Cops have an excuse to pull out their weapons because they have no idea who is armed or not.

Here in Australia, a cop is not allowed to draw his weapon unless in a life threatening situation.
Because we don't have guns every where the cops feel no need to draw their weapons for the slightest of movements, etc.

[The Straight Story]

36. Out of that 30k, how many are crimes vs suicides

Now take that number (around 11k homicides) and do the math:

11,000 murders out of 350000000.

Now look at murder rate by country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Sort by rate. US is pretty far down that list at 4.8 (and we are told US has more guns than any other country). Now look at all those above the US (listed below). I don't think guns are the root causes here - it is easy to use that as a crutch when you are talking about one or two countries (us/japan maybe) but when you widen the scope you see there is something else behind it all.

Country / rate / count / region
Honduras 91.6 7,104 Americas Central America
El Salvador 69.2 4,308 Americas Central America
Ivory Coast 56.9 10,801 Africa Western Africa
Venezuela 45.1 13,080 Americas South America
Belize 41.4 129 Americas Central America
Jamaica 40.9 1,125 Americas Caribbean
U.S. Virgin Islands 39.2 43 Americas Caribbean
Guatemala 38.5 5,681 Americas Central America
Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2 20 Americas Caribbean
Zambia 38.0 4,710 Africa Eastern Africa
Bahamas 36.6 127 Americas Caribbean
Uganda 36.3 11,373 Africa Eastern Africa
Malawi 36.0 5,039 Africa Eastern Africa
Lesotho 35.2 764 Africa Southern Africa
Trinidad and Tobago 35.2 472 Americas Caribbean
South Africa 31.8 15,940 Africa Southern Africa
Colombia 31.4 14,746+ Americas South America
Congo 30.8 1,180 Africa Middle Africa
Central African Republic 29.3 1,240 Africa Middle Africa
Puerto Rico 26.2 983 Americas Caribbean
Ethiopia 25.5 20,239 Africa Eastern Africa
Saint Lucia 25.2 44 Americas Caribbean
Dominican Republic 25.0 2,513 Americas Caribbean
Tanzania 24.5 10,357 Africa Eastern Africa
Sudan 24.2 10,028++ Africa Northern Africa
Mexico 23.7 27,199+ Americas Central America
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9 25 Americas Caribbean
Guinea 22.5 2,152 Africa Western Africa
Dominica 22.1 15 Americas Caribbean
Brazil 21.8 42,785 Americas South America
Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7 13,558 Africa Middle Africa
Panama 21.6 759 Americas Central America
Equatorial Guinea 20.7 137 Africa Middle Africa
Guinea-Bissau 20.2 294 Africa Western Africa
Kenya 20.1 7,733 Africa Eastern Africa
Kyrgyzstan 20.1 1,072 Asia Central Asia
Cameroon 19.7 3,700 Africa Middle Africa
Montserrat 19.7 1 Americas Caribbean
Greenland 19.2 11 Europe Northern Europe
Angola 19.0 3,426 Africa Middle Africa
Guyana 18.6 140 Americas South America
Ecuador 18.2 2,638 Americas South America
Burkina Faso 18.0 2,876 Africa Western Africa
Eritrea 17.8 879 Africa Eastern Africa
Namibia 17.2 352 Africa Southern Africa
Rwanda 17.1 1,708 Africa Eastern Africa
Chad 15.8 1,686 Africa Middle Africa
Ghana 15.7 3,646 Africa Western Africa
North Korea 15.2 3,658 Asia Eastern Asia
Benin 15.1 1,262 Africa Western Africa
Sierra Leone 14.9 837 Africa Western Africa
Mauritania 14.7 485 Africa Western Africa
Botswana 14.5 287 Africa Southern Africa
Zimbabwe 14.3 1,775 Africa Eastern Africa
Gabon 13.8 200 Africa Middle Africa
French Guiana 13.3 30 Americas South America
Papua New Guinea 13.0 854 Oceania Melanesia
Swaziland 12.9 141 Africa Southern Africa
Nicaragua 12.6 738 Americas Central America
Bermuda 12.3 8 Americas Northern America
Comoros 12.2 85 Africa Eastern Africa
Nigeria 12.2 18,422 Africa Western Africa
Cape Verde 11.6 56 Africa Western Africa
Grenada 11.5 12 Americas Caribbean
Paraguay 11.5 741 Americas South America
Barbados 11.3 31 Americas Caribbean
Togo 10.9 627 Africa Western Africa
Gambia 10.8 106 Africa Western Africa
Peru 10.3 2,969 Americas South America
Myanmar 10.2 4,800 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Liberia 10.1 371 Africa Western Africa
Costa Rica 10.0 474 Americas Central America
Nauru 9.8 1 Oceania Micronesia
Russia 9.7 13,826 Europe Eastern Europe
Bolivia 8.9 884 Americas South America
Kazakhstan 8.8 1,418 Asia Central Asia
Senegal 8.7 1,027 Africa Western Africa
Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7 3 Americas Caribbean
Mongolia 8.7 239 Asia Eastern Asia
British Virgin Islands 8.6 2 Americas Caribbean
Cayman Islands 8.4 5 Americas Caribbean
Seychelles 8.3 7 Africa Eastern Africa
Madagascar 8.1 1,588 Africa Eastern Africa
Indonesia 8.1 18,963 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Mali 8.0 1,157 Africa Western Africa
Pakistan 7.8 13,860+ Asia Southern Asia
Moldova 7.5 267 Europe Eastern Europe
Kiribati 7.3 7 Oceania Micronesia
Guadeloupe 7.0 32 Americas Caribbean
Haiti 6.9 689 Americas Caribbean
Timor-Leste 6.9 75 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Anguilla 6.8 1 Americas Caribbean
Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 6 Americas Caribbean
Lithuania 6.6 219 Europe Northern Europe
Uruguay 5.9 199 Americas South America
Argentina 5.5 2237 Americas South America
Philippines 5.4 4,947 Asia South-Eastern Asia
Ukraine 5.2 2,356 Europe Eastern Europe
Estonia 5.2 70 Europe Northern Europe
Cuba 5.0 563 Americas Caribbean
Belarus 4.9 473 Europe Eastern Europe
United States 4.8 14,173 Americas Northern America

[politicman]

38. why not compare to other western democracies?

Now please supply the western democracy stats.

Because you know it is all well and good to compare the U.S to nearly that whole list you posted if you want to be judged by the low standards that we judge those countries.

Why not compare the U.S to the other western democracies?

Please seeing as how you want to use statistics to support your case, use the statistics from countries like Australia, or England or France or any other western world democracy.

[The Straight Story]

39. They are at that list, as I noted -

Again, less than one percent of gun owners in the US use their guns in crimes.

We have a plethora of guns laws already on the books. And when compared to the rest of the world we are about halfway down the list of murder rates. Yes we have more guns per captia than any country on the planet. Go and look at this list now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Based on the logic of some those at the top of one should be top of the murder rates.

What do you see?

Country/guns per capita:

United States 89.0 1
Serbia 58.2 2 [6] 37.8[3]
Yemen 54.8 3
Switzerland 45.7 4
Finland 45.3 5 32[7]
Cyprus 36.1 6
Saudi Arabia 35 7
Iraq 34.2 8
Uruguay 31.8 9
Sweden 31.6 10
Norway 31.3 11
France 31.2 12
Canada 30.8 13
Austria 30.4 14
Germany 30.3 15
Iceland 30.3 15
Oman 25.5 17
Bahrain 24.8 18
Kuwait 24.8 18

[gejohnston]

41. which is irrelevant

Now please supply the western democracy stats.

which have higher legal gun ownership than our most violent cities. It is also a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Because you know it is all well and good to compare the U.S to nearly that whole list you posted if you want to be judged by the low standards that we judge those countries.

What does standards have anything to do with it? It is either guns or it isn't.

Why not compare the U.S to the other western democracies?

why not also compare before and after those gun laws were passed? Before 1977 Canada's gun laws were not that much different than ours. They controlled pistols more tightly than us, but we had stricter regulations on machine guns, so they evened out. Their murder rate was still one quarter of ours.

Please seeing as how you want to use statistics to support your case, use the statistics from countries like Australia, or England or France or any other western world democracy.

Very simple, prior to the 1920s-1930s most of Europe had no gun control laws, or were more liberal than parts of the US, yet still had a lower murder rate. For example, UK passed its first gun control laws in the 1920s, its murder rate was one third of what it is today. The US's was about the same what it is now.

[gejohnston]

37. just a few things

It may not exactly be a law, but gun nuts hold onto the second amendment as their right to bear arms (trying to get technical when addressing a point doesn't advance the discussion, it just diverts it, so keep that in mind next time you want to get too technical)

Yes it is in the Constitution, and yes it is a right.

Wow, you really think that having 200-300 million guns in a country with a population of 300 million does not provide the conditions for the wild west to emerge again?

The "wild west" wasn't actually that wild. In fact, there were more crime and violence in the cities. Western movies are not documentaries.

No I don't have stats, but I do have the stat that 30,000 deaths are caused every year from guns. Whether it is some guy in a movie theatre that gets into an argument about texting and ends up pulling out his gun and shooting someone, or whether it is gang violence where a drive by shooting ends up cutting down a 3 year old girl caught in the fire, the point is that guns can kill from a distance and because they are in plentiful supply in the U.S, they are used more often they should be.

Guns don't cause death anymore than cars cause crashes. The 30,000 number is actually false. 20K are suicides. That is 52 percent of suicides in the US. Using your logic, ropes cause the other 48 percent. All of our gang violence is concentrated in a few cities and even then, in a few areas. Besides, your gangs use home made submachine guns. Also in the US, the most conservative estimates, according to the FBI and CDC, at least 100K people prevent becoming crime victims with a gun. Some criminologists put the estimate in the millions.

Mental illness may be stigmatized and no one wants to seek help, but the fact that guns are plentiful that the mentally ill can easily get their hands on them is a tragedy.

Which are rare. They are so rare, they are man bites dog stories.

No I don't have specific instances where crossfire has happened but I am sure there are some.
But to expand on my point, if trained police officers get into a shootout and hit innocent people in the crossfire, if you can't imagine a situation where a 'good guy' with a gun will pull out his gun and attempt to stop a mass murderer which could result in many more people getting hit in the crossfire?

Actually, NYPD isn't that well trained. NYPD issue pistols are modified to have an unusually hard trigger pull because NYPD training sucks that bad. The average 10 year old farm kid in Montana is better trained than NYPD. The average "gun nut" is actually better trained because they go to the range more often. Statistically, the "gun nut" is safer than US cops, less likely to shoot the wrong person, and more law abiding. No, because we operate in the real world, not made up scenarios by ideologues who don't know what they are talking about. LE and security experts, including the Secretary General of Interpol disagrees with you.

Add this point to the above: with so many guns in the country and anyone being able to have access to the surplus guns everywhere, do you not think that cops get shit scared when they pull over a car or when they attend a call?

what do you know about US cops? The ones who are most afraid are in places where legal private gun ownership is almost nonexistent such as DC, Chicago, USVI. USVI's gun laws are not that much different than Australia's, yet has the highest murder rate in the US and among the highest in the world.

For crying out loud, most times cops pull a car over, they have to approach the car with their hands near their guns just in case someone in the car might be armed, they feel the need to draw their weapons every time someone in the car makes a move bcause the cops are scared that the movement might be the driver reaching for a gun.

Name a country that doesn't?

Cops have an excuse to pull out their weapons because they have no idea who is armed or not.

Here in Australia, a cop is not allowed to draw his weapon unless in a life threatening situation.
Because we don't have guns every where the cops feel no need to draw their weapons for the slightest of movements, etc.

You have been watching too many US cop shows.

[clffrdjk]

45. So no evidence yet, keep working.

It may not exactly be a law, but gun nuts hold onto the second amendment as their right to bear arms (trying to get technical when addressing a point doesn't advance the discussion, it just diverts it, so keep that in mind next time you want to get too technical) saying that the law says anyone and everyone can own a gun is a lie and must be pointed out as a lie sorry that is too technical for you

Wow, you really think that having 200-300 million guns in a country with a population of 300 million does not provide the conditions for the wild west to emerge again?
No I think that you don't have a clue what the Wild West was really like, and I am starting to think that you don't have any idea how the crime rates in the us are trending.

No I don't have stats, but I do have the stat that 30,000 deaths are caused every year from guns. Whether it is some guy in a movie theatre that gets into an argument about texting and ends up pulling out his gun and shooting someone, or whether it is gang violence where a drive by shooting ends up cutting down a 3 year old girl caught in the fire, the point is that guns can kill from a distance and because they are in plentiful supply in the U.S, they are used more often they should be.
so a retired officer on a power trip and a drive by shooting are your examples of legal ccers getting into arguments and shooting people? Suicide and gang crime are the two biggest group of killers that use guns tell me what laws do you suggest and how will they effect the gangs more than they will effect me?

Mental illness may be stigmatized and no one wants to seek help, but the fact that guns are plentiful that the mentally ill can easily get their hands on them is a tragedy.
How should I limit there ability to go out on the street and buy whatever they want? Prohibition is working so well for drugs and alcohol lets add guns to that list that will work. Or should I round up every one test them for mental illness and then force them the take their meds?

No I don't have specific instances where crossfire has happened but I am sure there are some.
But to expand on my point, if trained police officers get into a shootout and hit innocent people in the crossfire, if you can't imagine a situation where a 'good guy' with a gun will pull out his gun and attempt to stop a mass murderer which could result in many more people getting hit in the crossfire?
So you can't find any instances of it happening but you are sure it happens, sorry I need evidence before I believe in something, and when you add in the fact that every state now has legal cc you would think it would be pretty easy to support your assertion if it actually happens.

Add this point to the above: with so many guns in the country and anyone being able to have access to the surplus guns everywhere, do you not think that cops get shit scared when they pull over a car or when they attend a call?
For crying out loud, most times cops pull a car over, they have to approach the car with their hands near their guns just in case someone in the car might be armed, they feel the need to draw their weapons every time someone in the car makes a move because the cops are scared that the movement might be the driver reaching for a gun.
Cops have an excuse to pull out their weapons because they have no idea who is armed or not.
Here in Australia, a cop is not allowed to draw his weapon unless in a life threatening situation.
Because we don't have guns every where the cops feel no need to draw their weapons for the slightest of movements, etc.
Frankly cops are more likely to commit a crime than a legal gun owner. I should be more afraid of them then they are of me. And if you want me to defend The practices of US cops when compared to Australian cops you are barking up the wrong tree.

[blueridge3210]

32. All of you gun grabbers need to check your facts.

The law does not say that everyone has the right to bear (sp) arms; those convicted of a felony or adjudicated mentally ill through due process of law do not have the right to bear arms.

I must have missed the massive uptick in shoot-outs over parking spaces; oh, that's right, there was no uptick.

Again, EVERY tom, dick and harry are not allowed to own a gun.

Again, there has been no uptick in shootings by people that get into fights.

As noted above, those determined by a judge, through due process of law, to be mentally ill are not permitted to own guns.

The people shot in New York were shot by the police due to poor marksmanship and the idiot "New York Trigger" (12+pound pull); not in a "crossfire".

Maybe you could do a bit more research into your facts next time.

[politicman]

34. you really are naive

When the 2nd amendment gives the right for law abiding citizens to own guns, it is basically the same as giving license for every one to own a gun.
Why?

Because when you have 100's of million people owning guns, then those guns can be easily stolen or sold.
Not to mention that just because you are not currently a felon when you own a guy that you wont become one in the future.
FFS, you can have a really good law abiding citizen who goes through some hard times in life and next thing you know he strikes out against society or those people that he thinks have done him wrong, and he can use his guns to do it.


You might not see a massive uptick, but if you carry a gun and get involved in some kind of scuffle and then you might assume that the other person is reaching for their own gun, would you not pull yours out and use it before you yourself get shot.
When 2 people are involved in a fight, it has the potential to escalate into a shooting because each person knows the other might be carrying and would want to be the first to use before they get shot themselves.


Oh so cops who are trained beyond and above most citizens have bad marksmanship, so we can right that one off.
By that logic, what would happen if a mass murder grabs his guns and starts shooting people, and then a good guy with a gun attempts to stop him, will this good guy have better marksmanship than a trained cop?

[gejohnston]

40. not how it works.

When the 2nd amendment gives the right for law abiding citizens to own guns, it is basically the same as giving license for every one to own a gun.
Why?

The BoR is a set of negative rights, which means the Constitution does not grant the individual anything, nature/god does. The individual is sovereign. What it does do is tell the national government what its responsibilities and limits are. That reflects the classical liberal values the US was founded on. The founders were big fans of the Enlightenment, like John Locke.

Because when you have 100's of million people owning guns, then those guns can be easily stolen or sold.
Not to mention that just because you are not currently a felon when you own a guy that you wont become one in the future.
FFS, you can have a really good law abiding citizen who goes through some hard times in life and next thing you know he strikes out against society or those people that he thinks have done him wrong, and he can use his guns to do it.

Doesn't work that way either. Going from peaceful to felon by snapping is very rare to nonexistent.

You might not see a massive uptick, but if you carry a gun and get involved in some kind of scuffle and then you might assume that the other person is reaching for their own gun, would you not pull yours out and use it before you yourself get shot. When 2 people are involved in a fight, it has the potential to escalate into a shooting because each person knows the other might be carrying and would want to be the first to use before they get shot themselves.

You have no understanding of how our self defense laws work. That is a common fantasy of gun control activists, but has no basis in reality.

Oh so cops who are trained beyond and above most citizens have bad marksmanship, so we can right that one off.
By that logic, what would happen if a mass murder grabs his guns and starts shooting people, and then a good guy with a gun attempts to stop him, will this good guy have better marksmanship than a trained cop?

Actually,cops are not that well trained. They learn basic marksmanship at the academy and maybe fire 40 rounds a year. The average "gun nut" goes to the range about every other week and fires a couple of hundred rounds. Most are training either in childhood, military, or police (in my case, a combination of the first two.) Also, to carry concealed, most states have a training requirement. Texas has a fairly stringent training requirement. In places like California and New York, it varies by county and the requirements often include "contributing to the sheriff's re election campaign" ie, legal bribery.

[blueridge3210]

42. You said it much better than I did. Thanks for the clarification and expansion. (NT)

[ileus]

43. The old hidden criminals waiting to happen excuse.

Thanks but I'll keep my right to protect myself and my family.