A Boy Shot, and Regret on Montana ‘Castle’ Law

[bossy22]

MISSOULA, Mont. — Teenagers call it garage hopping. The goal was to sneak into an open garage, steal some beer or other items and slip away into the night. It was dumb and clearly illegal. It was not supposed to be deadly.

Around midnight on April 27, a 17-year-old exchange student from Germany named Diren Dede left the host home where he played Xbox and drained cans of Sprite to set off with a friend through his dark hillside neighborhood. They passed a home whose garage door hung partially open. Using a cellphone for light, Mr. Dede headed in.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/us/missoula-montana-homeowner-shoots-teenager-in-garage.html?_r=0

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the homeowners use of force but IMHO you can't excuse what the teenager did. Breaking into someone's house (i'm considering a garage part of the house since many of them have direct access to the house) is not only illegal, but highly dangerous activity. The kid put himself in a position for this to occur. "horsing around" is not an excuse.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Of course what he did was wrong, illegal and stupid. However,

when a foolish kid does something wrong, illegal and stupid he shouldn't get the death penalty for it.

[NYC_SKP]

3. +1.

Never. And there's plenty of precedence to make sure that vigilantes are served justice.

[hack89]

13. Expecting homeowners to distinguish between a harmless kid and a dangerous criminal

in a split second while under enormous stress is asking too much. If they make the wrong choice it could cost them their lives.

Don't break into people's houses for "fun" and this problem goes away.

[Tumbulu]

19. what sort of a thing is that to say- he did not break in

the garage door was open and this is something kids do in Montana. He was an exchange student, trying to fit in and be cool.

Why did these gun nuts do this?

Sick creeps and hope they both go to jail for a long time.

[hack89]

21. How did the home owner know that?

Are you saying there are no burglaries or violent crimes in Montana?

[upaloopa]

36. Stop playing drama queen! Make sense!

[hack89]

38. You sound a little unhinged

Usually you are merely rude and irrational. Are you feeling OK?

[upaloopa]

43. What ever you say makes little sense

so I never really pay much attention too it. But this time I made an exception.
If you were the home owner you would be so scared that you would shoot to kill.
See the problem here is not the kid but your fear which is why you have a gun in the first place.

Normal people meet their fears head on and learn how to deal with them. They don't hide in their castle armed to the teeth!
And that is not an insult it is reality!

[hack89]

45. Perhaps a nap is in order

I can understand your frustration - possessing the One Truth yet being ignored by the sheeple. 20 years of unbroken failure can be hard for the supporter of any movement. I guess it got a little too much for you.

[Tumbulu]

100. they should have called the police, not shot

when the lights went on.

This was not a burglary, or anything, it was a kid checking out an OPEN garage in the middle of the night- sort of a tomfoolery sort of thing.

[Jenoch]

106. This kid was murdered,

but it was not tomfoolery, it was B&E with the intent of theft..

[Tumbulu]

113. Oh my psychic expert who knows all!!!!!

The garage door was open- How does the great Jenoch know these things? How does Jenoch know that this kid's intent was to steal? And since the door was OPEN!!! It was not B&E, it was a simple trespass.

[Jenoch]

115. The teens in that town had been stealing beer and other

things from garages. The fact that the door was open does not make 'checking out' the right thing to do. If he was not in there to steal, why did it need 'checking out'.

When I was in college and home for the summer, I had a boombox stolen from my unlocked car that was parked in the unlocked garage. That was B & E, burglary, and theft. Jt was a small town. My boombox was found in a ski boat on the lake. Teens would steal ski boats in the middle of the night, go water skiing, and return the boats. One guy had his car stolen out of his garage, the garage door was open with the keys in the ignition. They used his car to go buy gas for the motorboats. It sounds like tomfoolery, but it was theft and B & E.

By the way, I got my boombox back. My eldest brother was a cop on the local PD and recognized it and I got it back.

[Tumbulu]

118. You think this kid should have been shot?

over this? Seriously?

[Jenoch]

120. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

Is English your first language?

I wrote on my first post that the homeowner committed murder.

What else have you gotten wrong on this case?

[aikoaiko]

116. Actually it was a burglary.

45-6-204. Burglary. (1) A person commits the offense of burglary if the person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in an occupied structure and:
(a) the person has the purpose to commit an offense in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person knowingly or purposely commits any other offense within that structure.

http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/45/6/45-6-204.htm

[Tumbulu]

117. Pathetic!

The kid went into an OPEN GARAGE!!!!!! and this mutates into a burglary????

You never snuck into an open garage to look inside it when you were a kid? Burglary implies taking something out. This kid did not get out.

[Jenoch]

119. I never entered a stranger's garage at night, did you?

You are attempting to make it seem like this kid was not intent on theft. That is a given if you read the newspaper accounts. Did he deserve to die? Absolutely not. The homeowner murdered that kid. That does not mean that the kid did not break the law when entering a home he was not invited to.

[Tumbulu]

126. I read the newspaper accounts and theft

was not an established motive. This is what I do not understand. And even if he was going to steal something, I agree with you it was still murder. And indicates our horrible over the top fear and entitlement of the gun owner.

[blueridge3210]

121. Actually, Burglary only required the criminal attempt to remove something.

You don't have to actually succeed. Again, no one is defending the actions of the homeowner; the argument is that if the young man had not illegally entered the garage he would, in all likelihood, still be alive.

[Tumbulu]

125. Good grief, you KNOW that he intended to steal?

How was this motive discerned? The kid is dead? From another country where kids are not shot for exploring.

[blueridge3210]

127. Clearly indicated in the article cited in the OP.

And statements made by the others involved. Also the time (around midnight); not a time normally associated with simple "exploring". Not sure where you are trying to go here; no one supports the action of the homeowner. Had the young man not trespassed on the property of another at midnight he likely would still be alive today. That's all. Nothing more. No justification for the shooting; just an observation that trespassing on the property of another at midnight is generally a bad idea.

[Tumbulu]

129. So the writer of the article supposes that the kid was planning on taking a beer

and that is proof that he was in there to take things? I just read the article and a possible motive is not proof.

Where I am going is that THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR MURDERING A KID FOR GOING INTO YOUR OPEN GARAGE AT NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't want people going into your garage at night shut the door and lock it. That is what locks are for.

I hope that the murderer gets a long sentence and I hope that all of you defending his overreaction think about it a little.

[Jenoch]

133. "THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR MURDERING A KID FOR GOING INTO YOUR OPEN GARAGE AT NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!"

NOBODY HERE IS SAYING THE KID DESERVED TO BE MURDERED FOR GOING INTO THE OPEN GARAGE AT NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[blueridge3210]

134. No. One. Is. Defending. The. Homeowner.

Stop. Making. Stuff. Up.

[aikoaiko]

123. entering a home to take something without permission is burglary.

You can make the case that the home owner shouldn't have shot the kid, but you can't say it wasn't a burglary.

No I never snuck into people's houses or garages to look inside.

[Tumbulu]

124. How do you know the kid was trying to take something

and not just looking?

Well, I guess times have changed ALOT! All kids used to explore, sad state of affairs.

[Heather MC]

23. Agreed!

This is sad, but this was preventable, if the victim had stayed in his own yard

[upaloopa]

37. Or if the owner was unarmed! Life means little to you

doesn't it?

[upaloopa]

35. Bull shit! He could have stayed in the house and called 911

like the rest of us would. Your sick gun culture warps your mind against anything but shoot shoot shoot!

[nomorenomore08]

96. +1

[Tumbulu]

130. excellent! nt

[chrisa]

69. He was so scared that he left his garage door open, and ran outside.

Not buying it. This was an act of rage, not fear.

[nomorenomore08]

97. +1

[Tumbulu]

131. correct nt

[riverwalker]

103. "enormous stress"? seriously?

Young healthy guy, safe in his dining room hears a noise in his garage. Leaves safety of his home to confront the kid. If he was under such "enormous stress" why not call the cops? If a funny noise 150 feet away causes him such "enormous stress" maybe he needs to grow a pair.

[Swede Atlanta]

52. When I was a teenager in Wyoming....

these kinds of "pranks" were common. I never did them but they were pretty common and "rights of passage" for many my age.

But there was never any shooting or killing. The sheriffs patrolled the areas where this was likely to occur and they would sometimes pick up 2 or 3 young guys planning or executing these acts.

But as a community we accepted they were pranks and while illegal not something we were going to spend a lot of time and effort, let alone, allow someone to kill for.

[immoderate]

2. What the kid did was wrong. What the homeowner did was murder.

Baiting a trap and laying in wait is not something to do.

--imm

[nomorenomore08]

98. +1

[meadowlark5]

4. The article said "2 recent burglaries"

If they had 2 recent burglaries, why was that dumbass's garage door open?

Makes me suspicious that this guy was setting a trap in hopes of catching his previous burglars. Because if my house had been broken into twice before, you can bet I'd be locking my house and garage up tighter than a drum.

[Control-Z]

5. Yup. This.

My first thought. I have nothing more to add that hasn't already been said.

[Heather MC]

6. Funny How they make this thief sound like a sweet innocent kid

From germany, just looking to steal for shits and giggles, no big deal. Gee I wonder how they would have written this story if the Burglar had been black.

Look if you unlawfully enter someones home, be prepared for the possibility that you will be rolled out in a body bag.

If the mouse doesn't go for the cheese it gets to live.

[stone space]

8. Wow. Sometimes I can't believe how casually bloodthirsty some folks are.

If the mouse doesn't go for the cheese it gets to live.

[blueridge3210]

10. Not bloodthirsty, just realistic.

Note the poster did not say the young man deserved to die; but that if he had not made a poor choice he would, in all likelihood, still be alive today. Sometimes poor choices lead to catastrophic consequences. Please note also that the homeowner is being charged in the homicide.

[blueridge3210]

78. Reading comprehension fail.

No where did I say that planting a purse to entice robbers is just like clearing up vermin. If you would actually read my post you would see where I noted the shooter is being charged with homicide. (not sure what the exact charge is; the media quite often gets the details wrong and never acknowledges their error). The point of Heather MC's post was that if the young man had not entered someone else's property for the purpose of committing a theft he would, in all likelihood, be alive today. This observation does NOT mean the young man deserved to die or that the shooter was in any way justified. I feel the criminal charges are justified in that the homeowner was in no way justified in approaching the garage and firing blindly without identifying a specific threat. I am reminded of an incident from my high school years where some of my classmates broke curfew and went "joy-riding" one night and ended up in the morgue. The did not deserve to die either; sometimes poor choices lead to catastrophic results.

[intaglio]

79. I do apologise I meant to post this in response to Heather MC

deleting my post

[Heather MC]

85. Thank you Blueridge

You are far more eloquent than I

[Heather MC]

12. I am far from blood thirsty, but I hate excuseitis

Fact we live in a country that in many states gives people the right to use deadly force if someone enters their home. If that is the choice a person chooses for their life, they should have some expectation that they will enter the wrong house one day.

I abhore guns, I have zero use for them. But I am fully aware many people like having guns, and since I don't know which homeowners have guns and which don't, I make it point not to go poking around inside other people's home uninvited.

In this case, this situation was 100% preventable. If the victim had stayed in his own damn house.

Life is Choice Driven, You live and DIE, by the choices you make.

[Tumbulu]

20. You are out of bounds here

this is sick and wrong and this taking beers from others refrigerators is some sort of a local thing.

Good grief, going into someone's garage is now a death sentence?

[Heather MC]

22. I am out of bounds????

this guy went in to someone else's home with the intention to steal, we live in a country where average ordinary citizen have guns, and have a right to shoot people who unlawfully enter someone else's home. And since we have know way of knowing which homeowners have guns and which ones don't, maybe it would be best if people like this dead man didn't make it a habit of enter peoples homes without permission. I am not saying this person to deserved to die, I am simply saying this guy put himself in a situation to be shot. If he had taken his hard earned money to the store and paid for the items he was trying steal, maybe he would be alive today.

This was a 100% preventable shooting. All the victim had to do was stay out of other people's house uninvited.

Just because I don't have this how dare he attitude for the shooter doesn't make me "out of bounds"

[Tumbulu]

27. You are clearly out of bounds

And your attitude justifies those who believe that all guns should be removed from all citizens immediately, since how can we tell who is nutty and who is not. Let's remove the entire problem..

This was a foreign exchange kid. Any kid doing this does not deserve to be shot and killed.

I would hope that the parents would sue these gun nuts and take away all of their possessions for depriving them of their son's life over petty things. THINGS!!!!!!

100% preventable means that all loony toon people get their guns taken away from them. Immediately!

Shame on you!

[Heather MC]

61. I feel Zero Shame I didn't shoot this young man, I didn't

Enter someones home unlawfully. And I have no use for guns in my personal life. Does the shooter have to live with the consequences of his actions? Absolutely, just as this boys family has to live with the decision he made to unlawfully entire another person's home.

And you don't know who the gun nuts are until they pull the trigger, so it is best not to give them any reason to reveal themselves.

Is this a sad situation, of course, but it's time to learn a lesson no one can change what happen, but we can prevent a situation like this from happening again, by telling the young adults in that area to stop stealing from other people. Simple solution to a complex problem.

[NYC_SKP]

34. FWIW I'm with you. People need to know right from wrong.

And if they screw up, that's on them.

Here is an object lesson for the other innocent teens who play the popular game of trespassing and thievery.

I hope the community learns from this.

[Heather MC]

62. Thank you,

I just said that, all the rest of the community can do is learn the lesson, and live with the consequences.

[upaloopa]

40. You may have a right to shoot but you don't have to shoot.

Most people will call 911 not murder someone. No one's life was threatened nothing worth a human life was available to steal.

[Heather MC]

63. I am not saying what the homeowner did was correct, but

As I said in this country in many states, you are protected by the law if you shoot an intruder. And if a person believes they need a gun for protection in their home, I am only guessing here, but I doubt they are not going to pull the trigger, IF THEY FEEL THEY NEED TO.

We can discuss whether it is right what the homeowner did, but let's not ignore the stupidity of these teenagers to believe stealing from others people`s homes was and ok thing to do, It was NOT. And I hope this community takes the time to address that issue.

[upaloopa]

90. Steeling from a garage and killing someone

are two very different and should not be compared as equal offences.
People who hold taking a life so lightly in my opinion should not have guns. And if the reason they take a life is unwarranted fear they should not have guns.

[Jenoch]

93. 'Steeling'? Is that the same as stealing scrap metal steel?

[Heather MC]

94. Since there is no way to tell which gun owning homeowners

Will pull the trigger, on an intruder and which ones will not.

I suggest uninvited people stay the hell out of their houses.

[Starboard Tack]

72. Interesting point you bring up.

No way of knowing who has guns. Yet people put up warning signs about guard dogs and rent-a-cop security/alarm services. Maybe the lack of a sign should indicate there is probably a shooter nestled inside his bunker.
This situation was obviously a baited trap, set by a trigger happy killer.
Welcome to America!

[oneshooter]

24. So you believe that people should be able to"taking beers from others refrigerators"?

What else do you consider to be fair game to remove from others garages?

[Tumbulu]

25. You think some typical kid behavior in that part of the world

justifies shooting and killing the kid? Are you serious?????

You believe in the death penalty for petty theft?

Is that what you believe?

Well, I do not.

[oneshooter]

26. Reread the question. You approve of the theft of items from a persons garage.

At what point would you disapprove of this theft, where would you draw the line?

[Tumbulu]

28. If someone is stealing, then you call the police, you don't shoot them

I do not approve of shooting people unprovoked. Petty theft of an opened garage (not even a closed and locked one) should not carry a death sentence.

[oneshooter]

32. Still a non answer. At what point do you consider it a crime?

Calling the local LEO is nice, but then I have to stay on the phone to give directions, depending who is on duty. Even if he knows the way, I live 30-40minutes from a paved road. I also live 150yds from my gate which is locked.

[upaloopa]

41. He answered you

Take it or leave it

[oneshooter]

49. No he gave anothernon answer, just like you do. n/t

[Tumbulu]

54. is that the case with this shooter?

Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 01:02 AM - Edit history (1)

why do you equate your situation with this guys?

Which crimes do you consider death to be an appropriate response?

I would consider anything violent, rape, assault, that sort of thing, But leaving your garage door open in a suburb where kids are known to go in and try to take a beer? What sort of cruelty is this? Death for a beer?

[Tumbulu]

55. I do not approve of theft, I disapprove of a death sentence for petty theft

and I do not think that anyone has the right to kill someone over some dumb stuff, or even precious stuff.

Tis is why we have a code of law and police and all this other stuff of civilization.

[gejohnston]

60. Is it fair to say that we agree that

if the facts are as described he was properly charged and not protected by Montana's castle doctrine?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=145444
Is it also fair to say that we agree that the better thing to do is lock the connecting door and call the cops instead of shooting into the dark and only fire if there is a reasonable (under the reasonable person standard) belief of imminent threat to human life or grave bodily injury?

(the facts in trial almost always differs from what is reported in the media, especially since it is still under investigation by the State and soon the defense. That isn't to say I disbelieve the media account, just that I maintain a healthy skepticism of anything the media says.)

[Tumbulu]

135. Yes, we agree. nt

[chrisa]

70. This sums up our ridiculous culture in a nutshell - "You entered MY home! Time to die!"

Never mind the context, or if the person is a threat - just shoot! Are they running away? Shoot! Are they looking at you funny? Shoot!

He was stealing beer for fun. The common sense thing to do would have been to yell at him, which makes most burglars run away. How the heck do people see taking out a shotgun and blowing someone's head off as the first and most sensible option?

How many burglars actually try to kill you? I'm sure reality is much different from the NRA "official," gun industry-supported numbers.

[Bortman33]

76. How twisted!

The guy set up a trap, nothing more nothing less, and executed the first thing his trap snared.

Whether it's open carry, expanded castle doctrines, or Stand Your Ground - where you get to kill if you feel the least bit scared or threatened, the real purpose of all these laws is no different the what was accomplished in the south with their multitudes of lynchings, cross burnings, and bombings. Intimidation, fear, power, and control over the other!

Yea, Stand Your Ground is the new modern day Lynching. Thanks ALEC.

[gejohnston]

81. total nonsense

The guy set up a trap, nothing more nothing less, and executed the first thing his trap snared.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. All we have is an NYT article that most likely isn't accurate. What the media says, including bloggers making shit up and becoming part of a game of telephone. Maybe he did, but until it is proven in court, I don't buy it. The media rarely tells the truth. It tells the initial impressions, but never follows up with the facts once they have been sorted out by investigators and the courts.

Whether it's open carry, expanded castle doctrines, or Stand Your Ground - where you get to kill if you feel the least bit scared or threatened,

That is not the law, never has been the law. Bloggers, pundits and politicians who claim that are liars or too stupid and lazy to look up the law. Castle Doctrine means not having the the duty to retreat from your home when facing the of immediate threat death or bodily injury in your home. SYG means the same thing outside the home, no more, no less. Even when there is a DTR, it only applies if one can do so and do so safely.
In case you didn't bother to read the article, this guy is being charged. If you take the time to google Montana's law, you will find that this, if the assumptions are correct, that his was not a legal shooting.

the real purpose of all these laws is no different the what was accomplished in the south with their multitudes of lynchings, cross burnings, and bombings. Intimidation, fear, power, and control over the other!

I'm sorry, that's just race baiting bullshit.

Yea, Stand Your Ground is the new modern day Lynching. Thanks ALEC.

SYG been in US common law since ALEC ever existed. California has been SYG since 1880. 24 out of the 35 SYG states have specific statutes. Others are common law. Out of that 24, several simply codified existing common law for that state.

[stone space]

7. It's kinda' stupid, but it's not all that dangerous an activity around nomal people.

I mean, come on.

Let's get real.

It's minor slap upside the head by the cops stuff.

[Jenoch]

16. If they steal tools, this activity can easily be a felony.

Brwaking and entering and gurglary is never 'minor stuff'.

[gejohnston]

9. Assuming the NYT reported it the facts correctly

Which I seriously doubt, given the state of journalism today, I don't see how the homeowner would be protected by Montana's castle doctrine given that I don't see any of the three conditions being met:

(1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.

(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#State-by-state_positions
Oh wait, he has been charged. The point of the article is to rail against the CD because the shooter thinks he will get off because he got his information on the law from MSM and cable infotainment channels. The NYT can't even get the basics right. It doesn't give "wider latitude" it simply does not require the duty to retreat from your home.

[ileus]

11. If I poked holes in every kid who ventured into my garage

And took stuff....food drinks petrol...I'd wouldn't have any kids left in the neighborhood. LOL


I'd just asked my son who used up all the gas in the second can a few minutes ago...

Maybe I shouldn't have goodies in the garage fridge and freezer for the kids so they won't come in with dirty shoes and raid our indoor fridge.


I think I'll hide my petrol from now on....I already have two bikes and a ATV to feed, I don't need to feed their 4 bikes and 2 ATVs.

[Starboard Tack]

73. Good to know you're doing your bit to save the planet for future generations

Giving kids guns and ATV's, all part of that "family fun" thing. Nothing like keeping it green and positive.

[ileus]

80. Yeah it's been a fun spring for them that's for sure...

But now with the grass starting to grow they can't ride in the field anymore until after hay season. So we've been developing a new set of trails down behind the field at the creek. They're down there now riding and having an airsoft war. Or they may be fishing...I'm not really sure.

I had to replace the front hub bearings on my sons ATV so he was out with the dirtbike for a while, but he ventured home a little while ago and realized I'd fixed his quad. Thought he'd take the hint when I was doing doughnuts in the lower end of the garden but they must have been under the bank and didn't realize it who it was. Should finish up planting the garden this week and there'll be no more riding there either. Of course we have 3 softball and 2 baseball games this week so the rest of the planting may not happen until next weekend.

We're supposed to hit the range Tuesday after work, but the kids will have to miss out on the fun. Shoot for an hour or so then hit the baseball field at 6.

[Starboard Tack]

82. At least they're getting some exercise and not polluting the atmosphere all the time

Let's hope they survive to have children of their own and learn something positive from their upbringing.

[blueridge3210]

83. Why wouldn't they live to have children of their own

or learn anything positive from their upbringing?

[Starboard Tack]

87. We need an environment to survive in.

Having fun destroying it and teaching kids that polluting the world we live in is all part of family fun, does not bode well for future generations.

[Travis_0004]

101. One ATV is not going to destroy the environment.

Everything we do has somewhat of a negative affect on the environment. If you are so concerned, you should turn off your computer. Its using electricity, which is also harmful.

[Starboard Tack]

105. Did I suggest that one ATV is going to destroy the environment?

Do you think that was my point? One fucking ATV? If there were only one out there it wouldn't be a problem. The Problem is the mentality of the idiots who think they are not destroying the environment. That ATV's, jet skis and all their other smog producing toys are completely harmless and just part of family fun.
My computer is turned off, btw. I'm using a tablet that uses a tiny fraction of the electricity of my laptop, which I only use when I absolutely need to, for applications that won't run on a tablet or smart phone. Besides, I get all my electricity from solar and wind power. How about you?

[Jenoch]

107. I am interested in your solar and wind powered automobile.

What is the make and model of your auto?

[Starboard Tack]

110. Funny guy!

My car is a Prius. My home is a sailboat. They make a very economical combo.

[Travis_0004]

108. my electricity comes from coal.

Solar is fine, but I don't have 20,000 laying around to pay for a system. Also, my electricity is under 6 cents a kwh, so the ROI just doesn't work

[Starboard Tack]

109. I don't have $20,000 lying around either

My total investment is less than $6,000 spread over 6 years. My ROI is not counted in $$, but in knowing I'm not burning down the house. We all have choices.
People shop at Walmart because it is cheap. They don't think about how the employees are treated, or the slave labor involved in producing the crap they buy. All of life is about choices.
You could go solar for the price of one ATV and set a good example for the next generation, or you could just go vroooom and say "fuck it, I'm having fun"

[gejohnston]

111. The ironic thing is

They don't think about how the employees are treated, or the slave labor involved in producing the crap they buy. All of life is about choices.

and they go to Target or any mall department store like Macys and pay more to an equally underpaid worker (retail and hospitality always pay shit) for the same crap made by the same people in the same factories and think they are "sticking it to the man." The Mac you bought at the Apple Store is made in the same Dickensonian shit hole as the one sold at Wal Mart or the MacDill base exchange.

[gejohnston]

84. Ever see an electric ATV or motorcycle?

diesel ATVs? They exist. I isn't that hard to refine grease to make B-100. The Afrika Korps fueled their tanks with it after getting their supply lines cut by the British. If they are four stroke gas engines (some are some are not) converting them to ethanol isn't that hard. The stills are expensive.

[Starboard Tack]

86. Electric ATV's are great. Motorcycles too.

Gasoline powered shit, not so good. I use gasoline and diesel, as backups for when there is no wind or sun. I also use gasoline in the Prius I drive. My total fuel bill, including all utilities, car and boat (home) is less than $1000 a year. That's about 250 gallons of fuel.
We spent more on tolls than on gasoline on our recent 4,000 mile road trip through Mexico. I have a Honda 2000 gas generator as backup and have run it for a total of 2 hours since last October.
I see windsurfers and kite boarders skipping along faster than the jerks on jet skis.
Ethanol is inefficient and has a carbon footprint.

[gejohnston]

88. jerks on jet skis

that reminds me of an interview with Wendell Moore some years ago. The interviewer asked if he was disappointed that his invention did not become become common place as depicted in science fiction movies. He said that he wasn't because "you know those drunks on jet skies when you go to a lake? Now imagine them flying around you."

My personal solution is simply not have a bunch of stuff. The ranting about how many guns we have per capita even though the households with guns is within five percentage points of Norway, Canada, Switzerland, etc. misses the point. Finland has higher households with guns, according to one UN study. Most of these studies vary so much, I don't see how any can be accurate, but that's not the point but fewer per capita guns. People rant like we like guns too much, but they miss the larger picture. We live in a really materialistic society, we just have too much stuff. It isn't guns, it is everything. Shoes, cars, TVs, clothes. Everyone needs a walk in closet, too big house, three car garage, and a public storage shed to put all of that shit in.

Everything has a carbon footprint, including mining lithium. If it becomes a strategic resource, guess what the next wars will over and where. So do playing video games, which is the product of a lot of carbon, toxic waste, and rare minerals found only in what is left of our fellow primates' habitat. Plus, playing on a screen on a simulator is not real life, resulting in not only impoverished life experiences but I suspect it arrests intellectual development.

Personally, ATVs and jet skies have their practical uses, (one of them isn't herding cattle. Anyone who does isn't a real cowboy, or vaquero)

[Starboard Tack]

89. You're right. Too much junk.

Obsessive consumerism will eventually cause the demise of western society.
Guns, ATV's, snowmobiles and PWC's have very practical uses and are great inventions. First responders use them to save lives every day.
Those who use them as toys are polluters.

[gejohnston]

91. I doubt guns pollute

given the Pittman Robertson tax (from 1919-1937, the tax just went to the general fund as a "sin tax&quot , I would say that gun and bow owners do more for the environment any other group. We pay the entire bill for habitat restoration including wolf reintroduction.
First responder, that really isn't an accurate term. Emergency services show up second after someone there already does something if possible. It could be a "toter" in the wrong place, wrong time or someone who takes a CPR class from the Red Cross. Unless someone knows CPR before the ambulance shows up, ambulances too often turn off the siren on the way to the hospital.

As for hyper consumerism, my vices based on a quote attributed to Rudyard Kipling:
“A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” but my version is closer to "A man or woman can never have too much coffee, too many books, or too much ammunition."

Edit to add: While Senator Robertson isn't as famous as his son, the two are prime examples of sometimes the apple does fall away from the tree.

[Jenoch]

92. Why would you pollute the planet by going on a

4,000 mile, unnecessary 'roadtrip'?

[Starboard Tack]

95. It was necessary, unfortunately.

But we still kept our carbon footprint to a minimum. We are imperfect people living in an imperfect world, but we have choices. Basic choice is, do you want to set a positive example in the hope that our planet may survive, or do we want to say "fuck the planet, let's have some family fun". Campfires can be family fun, burning the house down, not so much.
BTW, the car is 10 years old and has 60,000 miles on it. That's an average of just over 100 gallons/year.
My main commute dinghy is powered by a small 6hp 4-stroke, which consumes on average less than 1 gallon/month.
I'm not a purist, but I try to keep a balance. YMMV

[Eleanors38]

14. This sounds like a "man trap" to me, which is illegal.

We'll have to wait for a trial to see more evidence, but the shooter has a tough row to hoe, imo.

[Jenoch]

17. I remember reading a story about how a guy

was tired of the kids across the street would steal the gas out of the gas can in his garage (lawn mower gas). He put sugar in with the gas and yep, he saw them pushing the car a while later.

[Eleanors38]

18. Nasty. Hope a DNA trace wasn't done on the gas.

[Lurks Often]

15. If reported accurately, the home owner will probably be convicted of murder

because he set things up as a trap.

However the 17 year old made a remarkably poor decision and willfully placed himself in a position to be viewed as an intruder by doing something he knew to be wrong. If he had kept on walking he would be alive today.

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Are we executing people for being stupid now?

[bossy22]

44. it happens all the time

Home invaders get shot. Drunk drivers hit trees at 60 mph. Drug addicts overdose.

I don't believe people think the kid deserved to die (i def. don't) but I'm just troubled by how the article seems to excuse the kids behavior. The kid still committed a crime and you can't ignore that fact. This isn't trayvon martin, it isn't an loud movie-goer, this was a kid that was burglarizing a home.

[Tumbulu]

56. burglarizing a home? He went into an open garage to check it out

he was a exchange student kid in an area where kids go into garages and take beer from other people's refrigerators as a sort of prank.

Good grief!

[tularetom]

30. If this was just a case of a homeowner shooting an intruder in the heat of the moment

I'd say, right on homeowner.

If, on the other hand he left the door open to attract intruders so he could ambush them, then I'd say throw the book at him.

This doesn't sound as egregious as the recent case in I think Minnesota where the homeowner lured two potential burglars (kids) into his home and essentially murdered them in cold blood. But there are similar elements.

[Jenoch]

67. Byron Smith was convicted of 1st degree murder for shooting those two youths.

However he did not 'lure' them into his home. They broke into his home that Thanksgiving. They had previously broken into his home and stolen money and guns.

[FarPoint]

31. It's my understanding....

That the homeowner left the garage door open on purpose...used motion detector and was ready as in " lock-n- load" ready for any new human presence entering his garage...I see this as a Rabbit Trap...

[upaloopa]

33. If there was no gun this MINOR offense

would not have gone before the gun loving judge jury and executioner.

The life of this kid was not worth taking for whatever piece of junk the gunner had stored in his castle.
There is no reason left in our current gun culture. Just shoot first and ask questions later.
It is time for the rest of us to speak up about the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness trumping gun rights!

[bossy22]

42. does that include the right to burglarize?

This wasn't a 10 year old kid steeling a pack of gum, this was a 17 year old walking into some guys garage. Burglary might be a "minor" offense (depending on the value of the items stole) but it is an extremely hazardous crime for the perpetrator.

I don't think anyone believes the kid deserved to die anymore than a person believes a drunk driver should die. The issue is both choices have can have catastrophic results. If the kid decided to not BREAK THE LAW, he would be alive today.

[upaloopa]

48. You always distort the picture way out of

porportion to justify what you can't rationally justify with the story as it is.
See to you life isn't worth the junk you got stored in your garage and that is one reason you shouldn't own a gun. You too dangerous for society

[bossy22]

53. what am i justifying?

I'm not saying that the homeowner was right. I'm just saying that it's wrong to excuse the kids actions as the major cause of his death. Remember, everything the homeowner did until he pulled the trigger was 100% legal, can the same be said for the kid?

IMHO, I think the homeowner should spend sometime in jail. I think that he set a "trap" and his use of force was excessive.

[Jenoch]

46. You need to get off the "if there was no gun" mantra.

Guns are here and they aren't going anywhere. You need to ficus your energy on the "misuse" of guns.

This situation is an obvious case of murder because the homeowner shot into the garage from the driveway without giving any warning. The castle doctrine does not apply iny opinion.

[upaloopa]

47. No I don't and no I won't

Somebody has to tell you self centered enthusiasts what the rest of the world thinks of you.
You should not be held in esteem because you love guns!

[Jenoch]

50. 'Love guns'?

I see you are all about emotion and did not respond with anything resembling facts.

The fact is, guns are here. If some guns are confiscated in the future, it is unlikely that the type of gun used in this case (shotgun) will be on the confiscation list.

Your head would feel better if you stop beating it against the wall.

[Lizzie Poppet]

58. Congratulations on you appoIntment as spokesperson...

...for "the rest of the world." Gosh, what an honor!

[oneshooter]

51. At what point does this become a matter for the police. At what value would you

say "That's Enough". When your tools,or mower disappear? Perhaps your car is vandalized? Should everybody have to allow strangers into their garages, after all according to you "it's just junk.

[chrisa]

71. I stop burglars by not leaving my garage open.

Having a security system is another option.

On the other hand, if you're trying to set a trap so that you can encourage a break-in, and then finally get revenge on the person you think is burglarizing you, doing what the guy in this story did is a good option.

Since I'm not psychotic, I don't try to make my house attractive to burglars so that I can shoot them.

[Tumbulu]

57. I am speaking up with you- this is preposterous and murder

and a very big example of the crazed gun culture in this country. And to think all these people on DU are saying the creep had a right to do this???? Over some dumb stuff in his OPEN garage? The kid did not break in, he walked into an open garage no less!

[Jenoch]

65. If his intent was theft, it is still B & E.

[Lurks Often]

66. You keep missing the point

I don't think anyone on this thread has come out 100% in support of the homeowner. AS REPORTED, I think the homeowner is going to jail for murder. I am always skeptical about the initial reporting.

The point you keep ignoring is that the teen intentionally broke the law and placed himself in a position to be shot. If he had kept on walking he would be alive today, so he did bear some responsibility for what happened that night.

To put another way, if you don't drink and drive, you won't get arrested for DUI.

[Tumbulu]

99. This idea of yours is very cultural

I did not grow up in a place that if you snuck into someone's garage you might get shot. That is very wild west crazy sort of stuff. This was a well off neighborhood. The house sold for over $400,000 to this murderer.

Who would imagine that someone would be shot for sneaking into a garage as a kid? Really- is that what it is like where you live?

I have a sister that lived in that city and kids do that sort of thing there- sneak and get beers.

This kid was from another culture where tomfoolery was not a death sentence either.

[Lurks Often]

102. The teen committed a CRIME

While the homeowner is probably going to be convicted of murder, the very simple fact is if the teen had kept walking instead of going into a garage where he did not belong he would be alive today.

[Tumbulu]

112. It is a crime to go inside someone's open garage and look at things?????

I have kooks traspass onto my property, shoot the windows out in my barn, dump trash, all sorts of shenanigans and the sheriff tells me to shove it when I call and complain. I have even had workers shot at. Nothing, most of the time.

Oh so a garage trespass calls for a death sentence?????

You are way out of bounds.

[blueridge3210]

114. Yes, it is a crime; hence the designation "Trespass"

No, it does not all for a death sentence; hence the criminal prosecution of the shooter.

The point trying to be made is that if the young man had not entered into the garage he would likely still be alive. That's all. Nothing more. No one has attempted to justify the homeowner's actions.

[Tumbulu]

128. The OP justifies the homeowner's actions, and all of you

arguing that the kid was so wrong to be in the garage are also justifying it.

Simple trespass is not burglary. This article proposes a motive, but nothing is proven.

It is shameful for anyone to justify this overblown reaction in any way.

[blueridge3210]

132. Reading comprehension fail.

So far no one has said the homeowner's actions were justified. No one. Not once. Ever. Read the posts again. All have agreed the homeowner is a criminal and that prosecution is justified. You could just stop making stuff up.

[Tumbulu]

136. I am not making stuff up

you read again, a whole group of people are writing idiotic things such as "well if the kid hadn't gone into the garage he would still be alive" etc.

That is the group I am addressing.

There is no justification for shooting someone who has entered your OPEN TO THE PUBLIC garage . Now in rural areas we have to have signs posted EVERY 150 feet saying NO TRESPASSING or the sheriff will not come out and stop people from shooting our barns up and house windows out, I am not kidding you. Where was this guys sign?????? The intruder wasn't even shooting anybody. My workers get shot at and unless the signs are up EVERY 150 ft nada!!!! I get bullets flying past me, nada.

You bet you are right, I have had it with gun nuts!

[blueridge3210]

137. Yes you are.

Unless you can show a post where someone stated that the shooting was justified. Noting that the victim put himself in a bad place by making a poor choice is just stating a fact; it in no way is a justification of the homeowner's actions. Your issues with your local LEO's are something you should take up with them; either sponsor someone to run against them or get media attention.

[Jenoch]

138. Leaving an overhead garage door open

does not meam it is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC. Where are you getting this from? When I was a kid we often left our garage door open overnight, mostly by accident. We lived on a busy street too.

We posted our land several years ago, but I don't think tbey are legible anymore. A couple years ago some moron was being chased by a deputy and he turned into our field road assuming there was a way out. He drove into a low spot and got stuck. We have not had any problems with tresspassers with guns or otherwise.

[Lurks Often]

122. No, trespassing a garage does not call for a death sentence, but it is a crime.

You are still missing the point, despite several attempts to explain it to you. If the teen minds his own business and doesn't trespass, he would be alive today. That is the very simple point you keep missing.

I have already stated that the homeowner deserves to be found guilty of murder.

[spin]

39. It seems to me that the motion sensors coupled with a LOUD alarm ...

might have prevented this tragedy.

I should add that I am a gun owner with a carry permit, but the last thing I ever hope to have to do is to shoot another person unless it is absolutely necessary.

[Lizzie Poppet]

59. Hell, the guy could just LOCK his damn garage.

Yeah, it kinda sucks to have to do that just because idiot teenagers act like idiot teenagers, but is it really that much of an inconvenience?

I'm a staunch defender of "castle doctrine" ("duty to retreat" can fuck right off...), but not only is it not an open license to kill, it's also not a license to be sloppy and careless with your personal security.

[spin]

64. I totally agree. (n/t)

[Travis_0004]

104. I agree

If he doesn't want his stuff stolen he should lock his stuff up.

And if women don't want to be raped, they should not wear provocative clothing right?

[chrisa]

68. This is the same type of nuttery as the Minneapolis killer of those teens.

He did the same thing - set a trap, waited for someone to come in, and then killed them.

Since when is breaking into someone's garage grounds to kill them? My car has been broken into before. In this instance, would it be okay for me to run out with a shotgun and start shooting everyone out there? Of course it wouldn't. Wouldn't it be even worse for me to do this after purposely making my car attractive to burglars so that it would be more likely that someone would come and try to break into it?

The shooter sounds like a psychopath. We aren't living in the wild west, with cattle thieves and outlaws. Stolen items can easily be replaced, especially beer.

I believe in home defense, but this guy wanted to kill someone.

[Jenoch]

75. As I posted upthread,

Byron Smith was convicted of 1st degree murder. The murders happened 100 miles nw of Minneapolis near a small town on the Mississippi River.

Smith did not really 'set a trap'. Those teens actually broke in as thay had done twice previously. He did lay in wait, ambushed them on the stairs (he was waiting in the basement) and murdered them.

[oneshooter]

74. Simple answer. Quit buying beer.

No beer, nothing to steal.