Technical question on guns (making them easier to track)

[DetlefK]

There's the SmartGun, which only the owner can fire. This made me think of the movie "Judge Dredd", where Dredd is convicted because the shells found in a murder-victim had marks that allowed them to be tracked down to a specific gun: His service side-arm.

I know that bullets are deformed when hitting a hard surface, but I don't think that's true when hitting flesh or wood or a thin metal-sheet.
Would it be possible to have a gun mark a bullet when it's fired?
For example, would it work if the firing-pin had an individual pattern (Morse or Braille or binary or whatever) on its tip, which would then get imprinted into the bullet when its fired?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

1. Yes, this is called microstamping

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping#Controversy

This applies to the spent shells ejected when the gun is fired.
"Wheel" guns (revolvers) don't eject shells, so this technology is of no help there.

[DetlefK]

2. I see. The problem is that it marks the shell, not the bullet.

And as the bullet is encased, it would not be possible to personalize it.

Tricky.

[Jenoch]

3. Here is how microstamping would work, if it worked.

It is already possible to determine if a bullet was shot by a particular gun if the bullet is not disintegrated. The problem is, the gun needs to be in possession of LEO to do it. A bullet from say, a crime scene, is compared to a bullet fired from the suspected gun used in that crime. The grooves on the bullets (from the grooves in the barrel) are compared to each other. If the gun has the microstamp features, and is registered with the state government, the spent shell casing would point to the last registered owner of that gun. This is all theory however.

[Lurks Often]

4. And altering the firing pin or even making a new one isn't that hard

A couple of swipes with a file would be enough to remove the micro-stamping and any decent machinist with a lathe can make a new firing pin.

That doesn't include someone going to a public range, grabbing a handful of empty cases and leaving those at a crime scene.

[Leme]

5. Separate idea

I just think having a gps chip on every gun should be explored.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

6. Monitoring like that...

...requires a warrant:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[Leme]

7. government monitors your house

they do not need a warrant for building inspectors. And no one would be searching the effects..just knowing the location. They know the location of your house.
also
They could have the chips only activate if not at home perhaps.

[gejohnston]

8. and this chip would serve what purpose and

who would be monitoring it?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

10. Since they're good at that stuff...

...how about the NRO?

http://www.nro.gov/about/nro/who.html

[Leme]

14. purpose ?

for 1. well, if someone steals your gun... just like a car...it could be located

[Jenoch]

19. Who would have the ability to locate it?

The government needs a court order or permission to track a cell phone. I don't think the government has access to On Star or LoJack without permission either.

I don't really wish to have to recharge the battery or to replace lithium batteries in any of the guns I own.

[Leme]

22. not arguing with you

but the government tracks where your airplane is

[Jenoch]

24. I don't own an airplane.

Airplanes are not mentioned in the constitution.

I'll pass on the registration and GPS of guns in America.

[Leme]

25. guns are not mentioned either

o well, you didn't really want to have a discussion on whether gps could be put on guns

[Jenoch]

27. Ok, I don't wish my arms to be implanted with GPS capabilitity.

[blueridge3210]

29. One of the issues regarding GPS chips

would be power supply. If a firearm were developed that required an on board power supply to function (laser, plasma?) that could be used to power the chip. Currently all commercially firearms are mechanical in nature and the energy to propel the round is self contained in such.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. Really?

government monitors your house

Baloney!

they do not need a warrant for building inspectors.

Please provide evidence that building inspectors can enter and inspect any building for any reason as they see fit.

...no one would be searching the effects...

In this sense your "effects" include your possessions. If you "possess" a firearm, it's one of your "effects". Knowing its location, especially if it's being carried, is the same a personal individual surveillance.

They could have the chips only activate if not at home perhaps.

Would they come with an ugly watch that you have to wear at home but aren't allowed to wear in public?

[Leme]

15. really

how many pictures of your house do you think the government has in its files ? Aerial almost for sure.

I did not say they can enter for no reason. I said they do not need a warrant. I should have said they may enter without a warrant.. as can health officials and such. Unless you are just arguing this... google this: can building inspector enter your house

knowing where something is or is not ... does not necessarily equate as unreasonable search or seizure

I do not know what they would come up with.. this is just an idea

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

21. Just an aside

I don't answer the phone for numbers I don't recognize nor do I open the door for people I don't recognize. Apparently my town sent an inspector/assessor/official of some type out for some reason to do with property taxes. I didn't hear them knock, just found a paper in my door. The message was to call for an appointment. I called; they asked when I'd like for an appointment and I said that I'm choosing to opt out and never. They were good with that. Should I choose to challenge any changes to my taxes or whatever I'll probably need to pay a lawyer but if it's not worth paying a lawyer, it's not enough to be bothered about.

Most of life including your dealings with the government and your dealings in situations of self-defense shows that cool heads and thoughts serves your best.

To enter your home against your wishes they need to actually go and get that warrant. If they've announced that intention, it would be in your interest to retain a lawyer to examine what they bring and to represent your own interests.

People have been quick to release their rights and sacrifice privacy and freedom. The NSA collects "metadata". They claim that they don't actually listen to every call but they record your number the number you call/called you and the date and time... It's also an invasion of privacy. The Obama Whitehouse agreed and ordered it stopped.

Does the government have pictures of my house? I hope so, I bought four years ago and they issued a CoO to my seller.
Anyone who has access to google, bing, mapquest, terraserver... has satellite and bird's-eye pictures of my house.

Let's put a chip in all the people so we can know where they are all the time, too. If anyone of them remains very still for too long, law enforcement can be sent automatically be sent to check their welfare. That would be great. One better... lets make sure we can ID any people who've actually died. Now we can't use the chip to ID them since that's only to know where they are so we need something that only works when you're close enough to see the person. How about we tattoo an ID number on their forearm? Sound good?

[krispos42]

11. Two immediate issues

One, how does the gun report its location? What powers the transceiver?

Two, about 2 seconds in a microwave oven will roast all the electronics in a gun without harming the gun itself.

[Leme]

16. it's just an idea

they put them in cell phones... at some point I am sure this could be resolved

i am sure there are workarounds...people file serial off crime guns... people do all sorts of illegal things with gun right now

[gejohnston]

18. I can turn the cell phone one off to

mine is set to only activate if I dial 911. There is also expectation of privacy. Aerial photos of your house isn't because it is open view with anyone in an airplane, just like there isn't one on a 2 way radio (or non encrypted cordless phones or analog phones 20 years ago, ask Newt Gingrich when his conversation was picked up by a some guy with a scanner. I worked with a guy that had the dirt on his neighbors because his police scanner would pick up cordless phone frequencies). Corded phones, and digital cell phones, do have the expectation of privacy.

[Leme]

23. expectaion of privacy?

Privacy? you still have that? I think that fallacy left around 2003 or earlier, proved recently.

as for the house having aerial photos.. I was just responding to someone who said that was baloney. Reply # 9

"government monitors your house
Baloney! "

[krispos42]

20. The fastest and easiest way to reduce violence...

...including gun violence, is to address the underlying social and economic causes. This would both lower the crime rate AND improve the standard of living of the country.

The giant drop in crime that occurred in the area of 1990 was due to three major social and enviromental changes... hormonal birth control becoming widespread, the removal of lead additives from gasoline, and the legalization of abortion. It had nothing to do with more police or more jails or more gun laws; it was sharply reducing the pool of children born into circumstances associated with career criminality. And about 20 years later after these changes were made.... the crime rate dropped as career criminals became middle-aged and were not replaced by new teenagers.

So, if we progress with our liberal agenda in other areas, we will more quickly and more effectively lower crime while getting better democracy, better education, better pay and benefits, and a healthier economy.

Or, we can treat this like a hardware problem, spend decades fighting an ineffective War on Guns, and continue to have Republicans winning elections and continuing their War on the Middle Class, Science, Women, Democracy, Elections, etc.

[Duckhunter935]

13. how would you power it?

what happens if the battery is dead, how would it be tracked then?
would it be required on the 300 million weapons all ready in use?

[Leme]

17. it's just an idea

I do not have the technical answers, perhaps the technology needs to be developed.
-
existing guns, an open question

[SkatmanRoth]

12. Would it be possible to have a gun mark a bullet when it's fired? - Sure

It is called the rifling which is imprinted into the projectile as it traverses the barrel. It has been use by law enforcement for over a hundred years to match recovered bullets with the gun that fired them. Investigators need to have the gun that fired the bullet to make a match that can be used as evidence.

However, it does not work with shotguns or sabot rounds.

[DetlefK]

26. I was thinking more in the line of a serial-number/fingerprint.

If you find a bullet, you can look at it and look up in a register which registered gun produces these marks.

[gejohnston]

28. I seriously doubt it

closer to no.
Even if it was registered, which is slim to none, it is likely to come up in NCIC as reported stolen about a decade ago. The closest thing to that are states that collect the casings of semi autos for possible comparisons at crime scenes. New York abandoned theirs a few years ago. They didn't abandon it because of the gun lobby, but because it was costing them money to maintain and never provided evidence to solve a crime. That shouldn't surprise anyone, since the collection only came from new pistols legally purchased in New York.

[kudzu22]

30. Only in the comic books

I can't think of any way an ID mark could be imprinted on a bullet as it's fired using existing or almost-existing technology. There has been a suggestion to have all bullets imprinted as they are manufactured, but tracking it back to an individual would be a monumental task. Besides, people can and do make their own bullets.