In case anyone missed this

[Starboard Tack]

[IronGate]

1. Saw it and the DoJ is taking action.

And just why should we care how many bullets the British cops fired in all of 2013?

[Starboard Tack]

2. I think that was the whole point of it being on the DU HomePage

So many, apparently you included, don't care. It means nothing to you that cops are armed to the teeth in the US and legally kill about 3 times the number of citizens in a year than the total number of homicides in the UK.

Of course, that means nothing. Why should it?

[IronGate]

5. I care deeply about the militarization of American police forces,

I've said so many times, but I could care less about what the British police do or don't do, I care about how authoritarian US cops have become, don't forget, I work in close proximity with the cops in my area and, IMO, most are roid raged assholes who shouldn't be in law enforcement, much less ever be allowed to even possess a firearm.

[rock]

14. You're right on this one IronGate

It's an apples and oranges comparison and too many people think it's just fruit.

[Starboard Tack]

17. Well, I'm with you too IronGate.

I'm not asking you to care about what the British police do or don't do. I'm just pointing something out, as is EarlG, that might make people think a little more outside the American box. Nobody is trying to turn you into Brits or say that Brits are better, but we often learn things in life by observing how our friends and neighbors deal with similar issues. Nobody has all the answers, but all of us have a few solutions, maybe not perfect, but often better than our own.
I feel no allegiance to any country, except perhaps a little toward the one I'm in at any particular moment in time. That way, I get to learn a lot, without bias. And every day I learn something new.

When you arm cops the way you do in the US, you create an occupying force. That is very unhealthy for society.
OTOH, i9f you want to disarm them, then you can't have ordinary citizens carrying guns around.

[Eleanors38]

11. Since the old narratives are broken, you're manufacturing some new ones?

Is that the new one? That pro-2A DU members don't care about police militarization?

The controller/prohibitionists were against open-carry by a group of white folks, and posted tons of stuff here in an effort to shame and associate us with them, with all kinds of bad names thrown in to boot. But then....

Black folks went open-carry. Oops.

Controller/prohibitionists said if black people carried guns like white folks, the cops would be on them in a New York minute, that white folks would by the thousands poop their communal pants and call for bans.

None if it happened.

Controller/prohibitionists laughed and wondered where the white "militia types" were in Ferguson, then pooped their own pants when just a couple of them blathered on-line they would show up. You think this is a game? It's their community!

Now, we don't care about police militarization, you say. I'm willing to bet most controller/prohibitionists never knew what posse commitatus was until they read about HERE.

It's not going to work, Starboard. Just like the other crap didn't work. You can't even understand or concede there is a difference between civilians with guns and a state-created police force, but you are already busy manufacturing new Narratives to carry on the same old culture war.

[Starboard Tack]

15. You confuse me with someone else.

You are way beyond finding a solution. You're in free fall as a society, imo. There'll be bandaid solutions and you'll limp along for a while, but eventually, you'll all be barricaded up with your chickens and rabbits and your cans of Campbell's soup. Not this year or next. Maybe in 5 or 10 if your lucky.

The issues have passed the point where any laws are going to change very much. The 2A purists got what they wanted. The rest didn't have what it took to stand up against the madness. And I am the eternal optimist about almost everything, but in terms of the US, I'm sorry, I think you're fucked. Not because of guns, but because of greed and complacency. Guns are only the icing on the cake, because so many see guns as the solution to their problems.

Just think how much better off the country would be if folks had bought 300 million solar panels instead of 300 million guns.

As Forrest Gump says "Life is like a box of chocolates. Stupid is as stupid does"

[Starboard Tack]

3. "and the DoJ is taking action"

Whoopee! I'm sure that brings a lot of comfort to so many.

[IronGate]

6. As opposed the the DoJ not doing anything? nt.

[Starboard Tack]

8. It's good that they are taking "action"

I doubt the DoJ can do much to prevent these killings by LE, unless they are prepared to disarm the paramilitary forces that patrol the streets of America. No wonder the people want to carry. You have a society that is failing more every day and the increase in gun sales and CCW permits is an indicator of that.

[IronGate]

9. So, IYO, the sign of a failing society is increased firearms sales and CCW permits?

Just how do you arrive at that conclusion?

[Starboard Tack]

12. It is one of the indicators

It is a sign of a people buying into the politics of fear. You live in a society of "us versus them" whether it's cops versus civilians, Democrats versus Republicans, liberals vs. conservatives, Christians vs. everyone else, blacks vs. whites, environmentalists vs. consumers, people vs. government.
The stockpiling and crazy buying of weapons is just one indicator of a society in decline. The country is divided along so many different lines. The racism and hatred toward the president is unbelievable.

All it will take now is big enough economic crisis and the shit will hit the fan. 90% percent of the population is a couple of paychecks away from homelessness. What will the people do? How many still know how to grow their own food? 2%
But there will be plenty of guns to go around. I wish you all luck, because nobody will be coming to help from the outside.

But the band played on.

[Eleanors38]

13. "society is failing every day," yet you want increased disarmament?

Who or what entity in this "failing society" would have both the viability and your trust to undertake control/prohibitionist policies? "No wonder the people want to carry" indeed. Only, which ones do you mean, Starboard?

[Starboard Tack]

16. Disarmament? When did I say that?

I have never called for disarmament, unless you are referring to everyone walking around with a fucking gun. That kind of disarmament.
Yes, but it should be universal. No guns in public, unless absolutely necessary.

To be honest, I think it is probably too late for you. The crazies are running the asylum. I'm happy to be living in a country where food is the main topic of thought and conversation. And nobody thinks about guns until it's time to go hunt the wild boars.

[BlueCaliDem]

4. The lax gun-ownership laws in this country makes law enforcement officers paranoid.

There's no denying that. How would you feel, as a police officer coming to a scene where you have to assume that the person you're confronting has a firearm hidden in his clothes or car that he can pull out at a blink of an eye and kill you with? Wouldn't you be paranoid?

Incredibly lax private gun-ownership laws in this country have made gun and ammo manufacturers richer than they could have ever imagined possible while, at the same time, they have bred the "shoot to kill first, answer questions later" police force that we're now seeing in all its bloody ugliness.

Until that changes, unarmed people will continue to be shot and murdered in the street like some third-world country, but I guess it's a price anti-sensible gun law advocates are willing to let certain Americans pay - just as long as it's not one of their own.

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. Aww, the poor dears just can't help brutalizing the populace thanks to that nasty NRA

What a pantload. Other OECD countries with high gun ownship rates don't have this
problem with hypermilitarized police treating the citizenry like an occupied enemy.

[Starboard Tack]

10. I agree. Unfortunately, the horse is out of the barn

I would never be a cop in the US. When I was a rookie cop in the UK, many decades ago, there was a big recruitment campaign to lure us to Canada. Some of my friends went. The pay was almost 4 times what we were making in England. They all came back within a year, all for the same reason. Guns! They didn't want to carry them. The mentality is so different between the UK and N. America, even Canada, regarding firearms.
That was almost 50 years ago and not much has changed. Cops in the UK still don't carry, unless assigned to special units. They don't want to carry. That's part of the social contract between the cops and the robbers: we don't carry and you don't carry. And it works.

The criminal world tends to police itself in many ways, and firearms is a big issue.

Also, the public would not stand for it. They don't want an armed police force any more than they want armed neighbors.

[hack89]

19. If more guns had led to more dead cops you might have a point

But they didn't.

Being a cop has never been safer. I don't think they are scared or paranoid.

[BlueCaliDem]

21. The reason why there aren't more dead cops despite there being more guns

is because of the "shoot first, answer questions later" mentality, a complicit Prosecutor and judicial system that favors cops over us regular folks that allows LEOs to kill with impunity and lie on the stand, and of course, a more militarized police force. When LEOs come heavily armed to a potential crime scene and point their deadly weapons at unarmed people just because they may or may not have a hidden firearm, that's paranoia in my book.

[hack89]

22. So show us how much police shootings have increased

Shouldn't be too hard to provide a fact or two.

[BlueCaliDem]

23. A simple Google search would show it IF you were really interested

and, hopefully, alarmed that police shootings are on the rise. I had no problem finding multiple sites that are reporting the rise in police shootings - from both the civilian side as well as LEOs.

It shouldn't be too hard for you to provide yourself a stat or two but, again, IF you're really interested (and alarmed) that police shootings are on the rise. But something tells me, you're not, and I won't waste another post on this discussion-to-nowhere. There's no changing a (your) set mind, hack.

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. That makes *two* assertions (at least) that you've offered without evidence

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=151881

The lax gun-ownership laws in this country makes law enforcement officers paranoid.

There's no denying that.

And above:

It shouldn't be too hard for you to provide yourself a stat or two but, again, IF you're really interested (and alarmed) that police shootings are on the rise. But something tells me, you're not,

Why should hack89 search for information that you can't be arsed to provide,
especially since it's your argument and not his?

[BlueCaliDem]

25. Evidence?? I didn't know I was on trial. Memo must've gotten lost in a Spam folder.

Nowhere in my post do I allege that there is an increase in police shootings. Go back and reread, starting from the post hack first responded to. With just a teensy, weensy bit of comprehensive reading skill, you can deduce that it was HIS argument. So why again do I need to provide "evidence" to back or disprove HIS argument? Maybe if he asked nicely, I would've felt inclined to post some links, but he didn't so . . . no.

You really need to read a thread of posts if you're going to inject yourself into the conversation you don't appear to know anything about. Seriously.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. You've made claims you cannot back up and won't address

First, you blame (without evidence) abuse by police on gun laws:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=151881

The lax gun-ownership laws in this country makes law enforcement officers paranoid.

There's no denying that. How would you feel, as a police officer coming to a scene where you have to assume that the person you're confronting has a firearm hidden in his clothes or car that he can pull out at a blink of an eye and kill you with? Wouldn't you be paranoid?

Incredibly lax private gun-ownership laws in this country have made gun and ammo manufacturers richer than they could have ever imagined possible while, at the same time, they have bred the "shoot to kill first, answer questions later" police force that we're now seeing in all its bloody ugliness.

Hmm, seems we've found the DU analogue of the god-botherers who like
to blame same-sex marriage for suicides and natural disasters.
These two pompous assholes also seem to think they're on the side of truth and light:

http://www.civilbeat.com/2013/08/19794-fact-check-bishop-silva-gay-marriage-causes-youth-suicides/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-25793358

UKIP councillor blames storms and floods on gay marriage

Then you claim hack89 doesn't care about police shootings, apparently because
he had the temerity to not automatically agree with you.

Don't get me wrong, I devoutly hope you never change your approach-
attitudes like yours have helped make gun control what it is today

[pablo_marmol]

28. Your final sentence nails it for me.

Never get in the way of an opponent who is undermining him/herself.

[Starboard Tack]

31. Are you suggesting that police are carrying illegally?

Do you no think they are included in the crazy "let everyone carry a fucking gun around" laws that America revels in?
The cops are the tip of the iceberg. I wish you lots of luck trying to disarm them, while you still want to carry.

[friendly_iconoclast]

32. I'd like cops to change what they *do*, not what they carry

Last edited Sun Aug 24, 2014, 05:55 PM - Edit history (1)

As someone else pointed out, police in Finland are usually armed.

Yet somehow they manage not to routinely beat, shoot, taze, gas and/or
choke civilians for no good reason.

It seems inanimate objects in Finland don't actually compel the people carrying them to abuse/murder/intimidate others.

I daresay the same is true everywhere...

[Starboard Tack]

33. That would be a good start

But if they can't behave civilly, then they should not be armed with firearms.

[ileus]

18. Hell I fired 145 last week.

[Starboard Tack]

27. Obviously, you need the practice.

It's not going to be easy fighting the zombie hordes when they come to steal your ATV's and your dirt bikes. A good perimeter should do the trick. Lights, electrified fence, a few land mines.

[pablo_marmol]

29. See final sentence in post #26. Thank you so very much, really! NT

[Starboard Tack]

30. You're welcome! Whatever your thanks are for

I'm always happy to contribute a few words of wisdom.