How Can “Any Gun, Any Time, Any Place” Be Stopped And Why Is Starbucks the Key?

[SecularMotion]

To stop “any gun, any time, any place” requires, first, understanding why that is the key strategy on which the gun industry’s future growth and profitability depends. Since the early 1990s, the number of new hunters and new gun owners have significantly declined. Expanding sales requires expanding the number of places where guns are carried, aggressively promoting an urgent need to carry them (to expand the number of new gun owners), and marketing “attractive” guns with more firepower—such as assault rifles and high-capacity semiautomatic handguns.

To expand the number of places where guns are carried, the gun lobby gets legislation passed at state and federal levels that extends open and concealed carry with fewer restrictions and expands the range of places where guns are allowed to be carried. Many states have passed laws allowing guns in restaurants, bars, schools, sporting arenas, workplace parking lots, airports, churches—and the list keeps growing. Eliminating gun-free zones near schools is a major gun lobby goal.

In order to expand the number of gun-tolerant places, keep criminals armed and allow more lethal weapons to be sold, the gun lobby must control the laws being enacted, which depends on controlling the legislators. The NRA has a tremendous competitive advantage, an annual budget of $250 million (Brady’s is $7 million) and 600 employees (Brady has 23). Legislators are readily influenced and easily intimidated by the NRA. Guns are the only consumer product not subject to federal health and safety regulation and gun manufacturers, distributors and dealers are legally protected from civil liability.

To make matters worse, the Obama administration has made clear it will not fight the NRA’s agenda. It is no contest.

http://gunvictimsaction.org/faqs/how-can-%E2%80%9Cany-gun-any-time-any-place%E2%80%9D-be-stopped-and-why-is-starbucks-the-key/

[msongs]

1. the only reason a person needs a gun is for self protection against other gun owners nt

[Remmah2]

4. FAIL on so many levels.

[rfranklin]

8. Yet you can't come up with a rational argument to post...

can you? Just a Valley Girl jargon.

[Remmah2]

49. Read my last 1100 posts.

Last edited Tue Feb 21, 2012, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=16310

[spin]

15. Why is a firearm not protection against an attacker armed with a knife?

Or against a much larger and stronger attacker who can easily overcome a victim by sheer force? For example, a 100 pound female facing a male who is 200 pounds of sheer muscle and has the intention of raping her.

[Kellerfeller]

19. Yes, because guns do not work against

attackers carrying knives.

Oh, wait......

[Starboard Tack]

51. So true! Such irony.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Except of course that it isn't true.

A gun is a valid defense against:

"In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or"


You'll note that 'gun' is not included in that statute, as a gun is not necessary for someone to inflict great personal injury upon another human.

[TheWraith]

2. Myth after myth without a shred of reality or evidence.

Once again, someone's so dedicated to portraying the image of some unstoppable massive machine of "the gun industry" controlling policy for their own profit that they're completely rewriting reality. Case in point: firearms manufacturing in the US is not a high-profit business; total sales are only about $1 billion a year, putting the entire firearms sector roughly on par with Netflix. If you want to stipulate that the firearms industry is a bogeyman capable of brainwashing people because it fits your agenda, do you want to apply the same standards to other areas? Whole Foods Market, for instance, singlehandedly has about nine times the revenue of all the firearm manufacturers. Does that mean anyone who shops for health food is being brainwashed by the Whole Foods Industrial Complex?

The rest of the article is even more absurd, and reads like a "greatest hits" of anti-gun paranoia, from directly equating gun owners with criminals, insinuating some evil conspiracy on the part of gun manufacturers to supply weapons to criminals, or conveniently ignoring the fact that the NRA gets its funding from its members, unlike the Brady Campaign. Or claiming that firearms aren't subject to federal health and safety regulation, when they are. I'm surprised they didn't break out the old "blood in the streets" canard.

[safeinOhio]

3. Who is crazier, the grabbers or the gun nuts?

Who is crazier, the Brady Campaign or the NRA.

I call it a tie.

[pipoman]

5. I can think of no societal

good from Brady since NICS. OTOH the NRA teaches more people firearms safety than any other group, government or organization on the planet.

[PavePusher]

13. IIRC, NICS was an NRA idea and the Brady-dips fought it.

I have yet to see or hear of a Brady gun safety training class, despite their claims of promoting firearms "safety".

[pipoman]

21. Yeah, the original Brady bill looked nothing like what they got,

Sarah hated the compromises made to get the votes..In all likelihood, we wouldn't have the NICS without the Bradys, so I'll give them that..

[safeinOhio]

26. I've never heard of a board member of the Brady group

get politicians to take a no tax pledge. Wayne's 2002 rant on Obama's secrete 10 point plan to take away your guns failed, so now he is doubling down on spreading paranoia about the President. The political part of the NRA is bat shit crazy.

[safeinOhio]

25. NRA head crazy people trump all that.

Wayne Lapierre, Ted Nugent and Grover Norquist.

I have no problem with gun safety aspect of the NRA, however their political stance is just, if not more, nutty than Brady.

[pipoman]

37. I don't dispute that

NRA-ILA, the most visible leadership of the .org, and others associated, are political wackos. I don't believe they trump the thousands of instructors who are involved to help people, or the (likely) millions who have been trained by them. Countless lives have undoubtedly saved by their training. Baby and bathwater..

OTOH, the Brady's are lead by extremist wackos, but they help nobody and produce nothing..

[safeinOhio]

39. I don't think, other than gun control, the leadership

of the Brady Campaign are extremist wackos, compared to Nugent, Lapierre or Norquits.


Robert J. Walker

Mr. Walker served as the President of Handgun Control, Inc and the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence and from 1997 to 2000.
Prior to his work for Handgun Control, Bob worked for 14 years on Capitol Hill, including five years as a legislative aid to Rep. John B. Anderson and six years as Legislative Director to Rep. Mo Udall. He also served as Legislative Counsel for the AARP. 

Currently, Bob is President of the Population Resource Center. Prior to joining PRC, Bob was a management consultant and President of Get America Working. He also served as the Executive Director of the Common Cause Education Fund.


James A. Guest


Mr. Guest was President of Handgun Control, Inc and the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence from 1996 to 1997.
Jim's public service career has spanned more than three decades. After graduating from Harvard law school and completing a Woodrow Wilson fellowship in economics at MIT, he worked as legislative assistant to Senator Ted Kennedy. In the early 1970s, Mr. Guest moved to Vermont where he served as Banking and Insurance Commissioner, Secretary of State, and Secretary of Development and Community Affairs. 

He was also the founding Executive Director of the American Pain Foundation, a national consumer information, education, and advocacy organization for pain prevention and management.



Michael D. Barnes


Former Maryland Congressman Michael D. Barnes acted as President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence (formerly Handgun Control) and the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence (formerly the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence), for six years with his term ending in July of 2006. Continuing a long career of public service he will remain involved as President Emeritus and Senior Advisor to the Board.
From 1979 to 1987, Mr. Barnes served in the U.S. House of Representatives. During his tenure, he chaired the House Sub-Committee on Western Hemisphere Affairs, championing human rights and democracy as civil wars raged in Central America. Mr. Barnes also led the national fight against drunk driving, working closely with Mothers Against Drunk Driving. A former Marine, Mr. Barnes graduated from the University of North Carolina



Paul Helmke
Paul Helmke served five years as President of the Brady Campaign and the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, from July 2006-July 2011. Prior to this, Helmke was a lawyer and from 1988-2000, Mayor in Fort Wayne, Indiana.
Helmke served on the U.S. Departments of Justice and Health and Human Services - Violence Against Women Advisory Council and on the U.S. Departments of Labor and Education's Advisory Council for School-to-Work Opportunities and worked for the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) on special projects.

[safeinOhio]

40. On the other hand

http://en.wikipedia.org

LaPierre graduated from Patrick Henry High School in Roanoke, VA in 1967. He received his BA in Education from Siena College in Loudonville, NY and his MA in government from Boston College. He has been a government activist and lobbyist ever since finishing his MA, including positions on the Board of Directors of the American Association of Political Consultants, the American Conservative Union, and the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation.






Grover Norquist
Norquist grew up in Weston, Massachusetts, the wealthiest suburb in the Boston area.[6] He is the son of Carol (née Lutz) and Warren Elliott Norquist, a vice president of Polaroid Corporation.[7][8] Norquist became involved with politics at an early age and in his early teenage years he volunteered for the 1968 Nixon campaign, assisting with get out the vote efforts.[9] He graduated from Weston High School and enrolled at Harvard University in 1974, where he would obtain both a BA and an MBA. While in college, Norquist was an editor at the Harvard Crimson and helped to publish the libertarian-leaning Harvard Chronicle.[10] Norquist has said: "When I became 21, I decided that nobody learned anything about politics after the age of 21."[9] He attended the Leadership Institute in Arlington, Virginia,[11] an organization that teaches conservative Americans how to influence public policy through activism and leadership.[12]

Ted Nugent

Enough said

[hack89]

42. They have some extremist views on civil liberties. nt

[safeinOhio]

43. Not very extreme for DU members and supporters.

On the other hand the leadership of the NRA have pretty extreme views for us liberals and progressives.

The Brady Campaign is a one issue org. Wayne Lapierre, Ted Nugent and Grover Norquist have stated their hatred for our half Irish President and will do anything to destroy him, while his record on gun control differs little from some of the previous views of Newt, Kasich and Reagan. All of those at one time also were for gun control(AWB) just as Obama was once. All have or had changed for political reasons too.

If you can find any extreme videos of the Brady Campaign board member and spokesperson that compare to the two I've posted of Nugent and Lapjerre, please post them.

I am in no way a supporter of the Brady Campaign. I'm all for what the NRA does in training and gun sports, but until they stop their political craziness I will not join. I rather send my dollars to the Democratic Underground.

[hack89]

46. They support handgun and semi-automatic rifle bans

they support severe restrictions on a Constitutional right.

The NRA, on the other hand, supports the expansion of civil liberties.

I support the NRA for their views on gun rights. I do not support their political views but until the Democratic party removes all mention of gun control from their platform I don't think I have any real alternative.

[safeinOhio]

47. Are you saying you don't support

the Democratic party or DU?

[hack89]

48. I support the Democratic party and DU.

I support the NRA on the issue of gun rights. The fact that they will endorse pro-gun Democrats is a big factor in my decision.

[pipoman]

59. They are one issue voters

and advocate the same. So many here show disdain for 'one issue voters', and so few people are actually one issue voters that those who are, are extremists. Let the Dems nominate someone like Bill Richardson and the pugs nominate someone like Romney and see who the NRA backs and who Bradys back..

[Glassunion]

6. Can you actually have a tie if both are running away from the finish line?

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. Elliot Fineman is the Orly Taitz of gun control, and I'm glad he's around.

Like Taitz, he diverts the nutters and provides amusement for the rest of us.

[safeinOhio]

27. Kind of like Ted waving around his

guns on stage telling Pelosi and Obama to suck on these.

Face it the political branch of the NRA is bat shit right wing crazy.

[S_B_Jackson]

23. Clearly

The Brady Campaigners have a much more tenuous comprehension of reality...and almost no dues-paying members. And thus their increasing inability to advance their pet agendae items.

They have become a joke, akin to those who desire to celebrate New Year's day on April 1st, or who insist that the Apollo moon missions were a hoax.

[safeinOhio]

28. Wayne Lapierre's latest paranoid rant

on what Obama will do in his second term is so far out, they don't make enough tin foil to cover it.

Both sides are nut cases, so stop picking sides.

[gejohnston]

32. my conspiracy theory

is that Wayne and Ted are Brady moles to discredit our side by saying stupid shit.
And/or Ted's reputation as a drug free rocker is greatly exaggerated.

I missed the ten point plan story, please tell me about it.

[safeinOhio]

33. While sitting in a barber shop back in 2008

I picked up a copy of The Rifle Man, the NRA nonpolitical magazine and they had a full page ad


http://www.factcheck.org/2008/09/nra-targets-obama/


Now Wayne is saying Obama is tricking you by supporting the 2nd, only to take away grand pa's shotgun as soon as he is re-elected.

[safeinOhio]

34. Update on the 10 point plan, new conspiracy theory by Wayne

[gejohnston]

35. so the theory is

he is waiting until the second term to do anything? That would work only if he has congress to go along on the second half AND he has no problem with screwing the Dem that comes after him. I could almost picture Nixon doing that.
The ironic thing is, IIRC, it was Pelosi that told Holder to STFU. I lean towards the "Obama paid lip service to Daley machine" theory.
Wayne and Ted are looking more like Brady moles.

[safeinOhio]

30. video of NRA leadership's tenuous comprehension of reality

[gejohnston]

31. what he does for gun rights

is the same he did for rock music
more harm than good.
Who elected these people to the board? I'm not a member, and I can't vote.

[Starboard Tack]

52. I think the NRA gets that prize.

At least Brady is about increasing public safety, while the NRA is about eliminating it in the guise of individual rights. If I had to live in one of their B&W worlds, I'd prefer one with no guns to one where every knucklehead and his brother carry.

[DonP]

9. Gun grabbers need to coordinate their messages better

Didn't they get the note like the rest of us that the NRA is just a paper tiger and can be ignored politically?

Or is the NRA and the gun industry really a brainwashing behemoth controlling the entire government through mysterious channels the way these guys claim?

It's very confusing. Make up you mind people, you can't have it both ways!

Ooops, foolish me, I forgot you're used to doing that aren't you?

Guns are useless for self defense but guns are deadly toys if you own one. The criminals will take your gun and use it on you. but you're 23.7 times more likely to shoot yourself and your family first. Guns in the hands of CCW permit holders on college campuses are deadly but the are no examples you can think of of that actually ever happening.

I'd be stunned if Brady actually still had 23 employees anymore, since the Joyce Foundation started cutting them off a little more each year and they still have no paid membership to speak of.

Thankfully Obama has ignored all the weeping and wailing and just let the issue alone, proving that he's politically a lot smarter than our gun grabbing bloc of advisors.

Keep up the good work grabby types.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. as the costs of groceries continue to rise, I fully expect to see more and more

hunters and farmers.

[Starboard Tack]

53. Now that would be good. Hope you're right.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

11. Thank You

...for posting.

Get ready for a deluge of naysayers.

[PavePusher]

12. When your quoted article starts with a blatent lie in the title and very first sentence....

then you may want to re-think your talking points. YMMV





"My God, it's full of... false memes...!"

[jeepnstein]

50. I really want one of those.

[ileus]

14. Shooter on the grassy knoll.....and other conspiracy theories entertain me.

[safeinOhio]

29. Like Obama's "secrete 10 point plan"?

[Hoyt]

16. That post is very true.

I think those in the "gun culture" support the NRA, etc., so that they won't feel like a small group of misfits walking around with their guns. Many keep accumulating more and more guns hoping it satisfies some craving.

If this crud keeps up, even those opposed to guns will have to start arming up to protect themselves against a "gun culture" gone mad. Of course, that is exactly what manufacturers and the gun lobby hope will happen.

[rrneck]

17. Onward culture warriors... nt

[shadowrider]

18. I promise I will tell you how it can be stopped (“Any Gun, Any Time, Any Place”)

Just as soon as you show me where anyone on this forum advocated that or where any gun-rights organization has advocated that.

A few caveats:
1) It CANNOT come from an anti-gun blog
2) It CANNOT come from an "I heard" scenario
3) It MUST be a link to the source

Show me that kemo sabe, and I'll tell you how it can be stopped.

You first.

[DonP]

20. Is it OK if I do something else while we wait?

I don't know if I have the time to wait around for any kind of serious response to your request.

I'll get back to building the new shelving units for the family room with a integrated fireplace mantle I've been designing. I have a hunch I'll have them built, stained, varnished and installed before we hear anything meaningful.

Since, in over a decade, I haven't found a single anti gun website that allows any sort of response, I'm guessing you'll get some angry posts responding ... or more likely be totally ignored.

Gun control, specializing in fine straw men since 2001. That would make a nice bumper sticker.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. taking your post seriously (why, I am not sure)

as police forces are having to cut back, I really am not surprised to see where it is any problem

for responsible citizens to step up. There has been and always will be the criminal element taking advantage of innocents.

fixed that last sentence for you:

To make matters worsebetter, the Obama administration has made clear it will not fight the NRA’s agenda. It is no contest.

This will take the issue off the board for Democrats trying to get elected and now voters can focus on other, more pressing issues.

[rl6214]

24. “Any Gun, Any Time, Any Place”

Why is it this is only heard from the anti-gun zealots?

[safeinOhio]

36. Just like "there will be blood in the streets"

is only said by gun zealots on this forum.

Please show me where anyone on this forum ever said those words in support of gun control.

[rl6214]

60. I would agree with you, I don't believe I have ever seen anyone on the gun control side say this.

I have seen it said in the media and by the gun control side of the arguement outside of DU. And the only people in this group that have said that have said it mockingly. The guns for everyone as said in this group by the anti-gun zealots is said in what they believe to be their own reality.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

38. Until legal gun carriers start shooting up innocent people in statistically significant #'s...

Then you will not be able to stop “Any Gun, Any Time, Any Place”.

The fact of the matter is that 99.9% of the time the LEGAL LAWFUL gun carriers are not the problem. Through selective representation they have lower incidence of criminal misconduct than the general public (sometimes even the police) and rarely cause problems. Sure, there a few instances of incidents as with any demographic this size - but the number of incidents compared to the select population being obserrved are nearly statistically insignificant.

Moreover, with the ease of information propogation and the internet, the public is learning this. Unless there is a massive consistent uptick in lawful carriers abusing their rights/priveleges then the public will not be swayed from current acceptance of gun rights expansion. The public is witnessing the past decades of massive gun rghts expansion... and blood is not "flowing in the streets" nor have we devolved into the "wild west". The antirights memes and half-truths have been tried and found fallacious. As with many anti-rights movements that have fallen by the wayside, predjudice & ignorance against guns and their owners appear to be the only thing keeping the anti gun rights movement alive.

The hypocricy with which liberal people proclaim to be avid proponents of an anti-rights movement is always good for a laugh.

[safeinOhio]

45. The majority of sane Americans

are not against licensed CCWs, only the extremest. However, most fear criminals with guns and would support ways to keep handguns out of the hands of criminals. Just like legal carry does not guaranty you won't die of a criminal attack, stricter laws on sales and registration of handguns won't stop every criminal from getting their hands on a handgun. Just as carrying a gun will lessen your chances of getting killed, stricter laws that affect criminals and not legal owners and will lessen the chance of crooks with handguns.

[burf]

54. Isn't it already

against the law for most criminals to carry a handgun?

[safeinOhio]

55. Weak laws and

weak enforcement.

[slackmaster]

41. Lobbyists who abuse hyperbole deserve to be taken out and shot.

[DonP]

44. I've told you a million times to stop saying things like that.

It upsets the bliss ninnies who are trying to save "just one life".

[Starboard Tack]

57. What kind of moronic statement is that?

Or is it some perverse attempt at humor?

[slackmaster]

58. It's a reductio ad absurdum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum