5 countries where police officers do not carry firearms — and it works well

[Starboard Tack]

Any thoughts on this? Does anyone think this could work in the US?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/02/18/5-countries-where-police-officers-do-not-carry-firearms-and-it-works-well/

In the United States, it seems obvious that police officers carry guns and are allowed to use them.

In other places, however, this would be considered a provocation and a violation of law.

In Britain, Ireland, Norway, Iceland and New Zealand, officers are unarmed when they are on patrol. Police are only equipped with firearms in special circumstances. It's a strategy that seems to work surprisingly well for these countries. Police officers there have saved lives -- exactly because they were unable to shoot.

"The practice is rooted in tradition and the belief that arming the police with guns engenders more gun violence than it prevents," Guðmundur Oddsson, an assistant professor of sociology at Northern Michigan University, told The Washington Post.
More at link http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/02/18/5-countries-where-police-officers-do-not-carry-firearms-and-it-works-well/

[NYC_SKP]

1. Recommended. (nt)

[Lurks Often]

2. Won't work until we change the economic and social conditions that cause crime here

and I don't see a realistic way of changing that anytime soon.

Economically we need GOOD jobs, not just living wage jobs and too many of those have gone overseas and are unlikely to come back anytime soon.

As for the social conditions, we need to change things so that the idea of the criminal or gang life APPEARS to be a better choice then working; we need to change things so that innocent people are afraid to inform on the criminals to the police; we need to change things so that people both show and receive respect from others and there is probably more needed then I have already thought of.

[jeepnstein]

3. It would work most nights here.

On a typical shift the pistol on your hip is just another piece of heavy equipment. Of course when you're out on a domestic call, or an alarm drop, or a robbery and your nearest backup is about forty minutes away, then the world starts looking a little different.

In large urban centers it could work if you had officers who were able to go hands-on with a fairly high level of confidence. It takes a special kind of person to face an opponent with a knife or a gun when all you have is your hands and maybe a baton. I would expect the number of workers comp claims, disability claims, and work-related deaths would rise if a department went unarmed, but that's only a guess based on 21 years' experience.

[gejohnston]

4. interesting

I remember reading that the citizens of London didn't want the police armed or wearing red uniforms because they feared they would be as trigger happy as the army at the time.
You might find this ironic but three of of the countries have medium to high gun ownership rates.

When I escaped Florida and went back to Wyoming, I was dismayed the WFG officers started carrying pistols. Anytime I was stopped as a kid (to inspect fish catch, deer tag.) they weren't, even though he knew we were (that was probably more common in the west). Realize, this was miles from a paved road let alone a telephone. The policy had less to do with people willing to shoot it out over a couple of fish, it had more to do with cattle rustlers and the tye-dyed Kochs.
One of the things that astounded me about Florida was that the game wardens are as armed like city cops, and have uncool uniforms.

What is interesting, since I like to look at the larger view, British cops were unarmed even when there were no gun laws in Britain. If I understand correctly, the roving armed patrols are fairly recent.

[ileus]

5. I don't see a problem, unless it somehow inhibited my choice of self defense device selection.

[Starboard Tack]

8. Why would you see a problem?

You don't even know what a gun is for. Hell, you can't even use the word "gun". You think they are "personal protection devices" or devices for "harvesting food". You live in a total fantasy world.

[ManiacJoe]

6. You need to define "it works well".

Places that have cops without guns have populations without guns.
This does not mean that the cops are less at risk; it means that the risks are different.
UK cops face great risks of being stabbed; there protective gear is optimized for that risk.
USA cops face great risks of being shot; their protective gear is optimized for that risk.

[Starboard Tack]

9. Nonsense

Check the stats for gun ownership in those countries.
I grew up with guns in England, shotguns and air rifles. We use them for hunting, sport shooting and target practice, not for killing each other. Because that is bloody uncivilized.
I was a cop in England and had my life threatened on a few occasions, one time by a guy with a gun. Never entered my mind to want a gun to resolve the problem, because that's not how we do it. Not bloody civilized. There are rules. Number one rule, no guns, period. Doesn't work, just look at America. If it did, then we'd all have guns.
Time to rethink ManiacJoe.

[MicaelS]

7. No. Not until we come to grips with the issue of street drugs..

We'll never be to address the issue of guns. We have started with Cannabis, but still a long way to go with Heroin and Cocaine.

The fact that all these countries have a strong social safety net helps also. They also don't have the racial issues that we do.

In short, no, not until our society changes dramatically.

[Starboard Tack]

10. More nonsense

Has nothing to do with "street drugs". It has to do with a mentality that guns solve problems. When brought into the streets they only serve to exacerbate the situation.

Do you think you are going to resolve your racial issues by arming the cops? I would suggest the opposite.
There are racial issues in every country. They are just variations on a theme.

Your society will change dramatically when cops are not routinely armed. Right now, cops are perceived as the enemy in the US, by a huge percentage of the population.

[gejohnston]

12. major cultural difference

Last edited Wed May 6, 2015, 08:45 AM - Edit history (1)

We are less likely to have deference to authority than any of those places. They also don't have the larger problem with wealth inequality (that puts us in the GINI index closer to Mexico than any of those places) and we have always had a greater gang problem than them.
It is about drugs and protecting drug profits. Before the WoD, youth gangs would resolve their turf and girl issues in a park with fists, chains, knives, or improvised maces. If anyone brought a gun, it was a zip gun made in shop class. Nobody brought mom's .32. This was a time, under federal law, all anyone needed was a money order and a catalog. No background checks, no 4473, not interstate sale ban.
Why? Back then it was about turf and being King Bad Ass of the block. You don't get to be King Bad Ass by remote control (seriously, who is more bad ass, a Special Boat Service or SEAL or a USAF ICBM launch officer?) Now it is about money and drug profits. While some English thugs still follow the rules, too many, unfortunately, are not. That is why there are roving armed patrols now, that may not have existed 50 years ago.
I think the writer has it backwards, the culture is not the result of the guns, the guns are the result of the culture. Personally, I still lean toward the idea that airborne lead is the major culprit.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/05/us-murder-rate-track-be-lowest-century

[MicaelS]

13. Oh.. you want to play the race card.

OK, I'll play.

Until the majority of the White population (which tends to vote Republican) sees with their own eyes that there is a problem with the police, comes to the idea in their own minds, so that they think it is THEIR idea, the police in the US will not be disarmed.

Or when the Baby Boomers pass from the scene completely.

Or when Whites are no longer the majority... circa what 2050?

[ileus]

11. All excellent points.

[pablo_marmol]

14. "Does anyone think this could work in the U.S.?"

Only folks that believe in comparing apples to oranges, and folks who believe in unicorns dancing across rainbows.

Post #'s 7 and 12 say it all.

[Shamash]

15. I think that article was written by someone who does not travel much

I've been to three of those countries in the past year and a half and the police I encountered regularly had sidearms. And I do not mean "just in the airport". Now, maybe there are areas in the countries where police are regularly unarmed, but I guarantee if you're a tourist in Iceland, Norway or England you will see armed police and if this is only in "special circumstances" there sure are a hell of a lot of them. And when they are serious about being armed, they are really serious. When was the last time you saw someone in a normal police uniform (not a SWAT team) who was cradling a submachinegun on a street corner (usually with a friend)? Because you do see that overseas.

To me, if personal experience shows that 3 of the 5 countries listed as are incorrectly listed as having unarmed police forces as a default, that would call into question any conclusions drawn by the author.

[Starboard Tack]

16. You must have been hanging around airports, embassies and other terrorist targets.

They are not armed on regular patrols and virtually all situations where they are is terrorism related.
That is a huge difference with the US, where cops are routinely armed, which creates an "us versus them" mentality.
Next time you travel, I suggest you venture a little further than the capital cities.
In the year 2011–12, there were 6,756 Authorised Firearms Officers, 12,550 police operations in which firearms were authorized throughout England and Wales and 5 incidents where conventional firearms were used.
Since 2004, police forces have increasingly been issuing Tasers to Authorised Firearms Officers for use against armed assailants. Tasers are considered by the authorities to be a non-lethal alternative to firearms.

Police in the US have killed more civilians in the last month than UK police have killed since 1900, and that includes Northern Ireland. Go figure.

[Shamash]

17. No wonder my luggage felt heavy

You were hiding inside observing!

You don't know where I went, I do. So unless you know of some reason why the Roman ruins in Cardiff are on the ISIL hit list or why the road next to my bed & breakfast needed an armed patrol, I respectfully submit that you restrict your observations on what I have seen to places that you have also seen.

The threat of terrorism in Europe is taken seriously. And not just in the national capitols. Even if not all police are armed in these countries, there are enough of them armed that you do notice it. In Norway for instance, the police want to have more of their numbers armed.

I'm not arguing that US police are not over-armed and trigger-happy. I think that they are and we would do well to reduce this. I'm just asking you when the last time was that you asked directions from a cop holding a submachine gun, and what country that was in?

I think that differences in culture and police training have a lot more to do with their police shooting rates than simple availability of firearms. After all, look at how many Freddie Gray- and Eric Garner-type incidents there are in England, neither of which involved a police shooting. If British police do not have the same rate of those incidents as we do, then it is an indication that they are doing something differently, not just equipped differently.

[Starboard Tack]

18. No, I wasn't spying on you. No offense intended.

I believe that you saw what you saw. Cardiff is the capital of Wales, btw.
I spent a few years as a cop in England, so I do have a certain perspective on this issue. I also travel a lot.

Check this link. It will clarify the police use of firearms in the UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorised_Firearms_Officer

All police forces in the United Kingdom have an AFO selection process, varying slightly between each force. As with many police specialities, all Authorised Firearms Officers have volunteered for the role. Candidates are required to gain approval from their superiors before embarking on a series of interviews, psychological and physical fitness tests, medical examinations and assessment days, before permission to commence firearms training is approved. There is no guarantee of success; candidates can be returned to their previous role at any point in training if they do not meet the required standard.
Once authorised, AFOs must pass regular refresher training and retests in order to maintain their authorisation. Failure to meet the required standards in any particular aspect can result in the officer having their firearms authorisation revoked. Health or fitness problems can also result in temporary or permanent suspension from firearms duties.

AFOs may only carry firearms when authorised by an "appropriate authorising officer". The appropriate authorising officer must be of the rank of Inspector or higher. When working at airports, nuclear sites, on Protection Duties and deployed in Armed Response Vehicles in certain areas, 'Standing Authority' is granted to carry personal sidearms. All members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland have authority to carry a personal issue handgun as a matter of routine, both on duty and off.
United Kingdom law allows the use of "reasonable force" in order to make an arrest or prevent a crime or to defend one's self. However, if the force used is fatal, then the European Convention of Human Rights only allows "the use of force which is no more than absolutely necessary". Firearms officers may therefore only discharge their weapons "to stop an imminent threat to life".
ACPO policy states that "use" of a firearm includes both pointing it at a person and discharging it (whether accidentally, negligently or on purpose). As with all use of force in England and Wales, the onus is on the individual officer to justify their actions in court.

To answer your question "I'm just asking you when the last time was that you asked directions from a cop holding a submachine gun, and what country that was in? "
I have asked directions and other info from several here in Mexico. Living here gives me a whole other perspective on firearms. Civilians rarely carry firearms and those who do are usually gangsters, who are armed to the teeth. There is a war underway in this country between the cartels and the government. It is a war of domestic terrorism. So a cop with an AK is normal.
That said, I feel far safer here than in the US. I also feel safer in Europe, where I spend half my time.

[Shamash]

19. My apologies, then

I tend to get ruffled when someone implies that I'm lying about something I have seen with my own two eyes. So if I came across a little harsh, I apologize.

I feel the same way about Europe as you do. I'm an unapologetic gun owner, but I felt safe walking though the less affluent sections of Bergen or Eindhoven or Copenhagen or Reykjavik or Oslo or Helsinki (yes, the latter four are capitals) in the middle of the night, and I would not feel at all safe doing so in similar parts of Washington DC (our capital), despite there being about the same level of firearms restrictions. I did have qualms about parts of London, though. Once you left the central district, just about every direction had areas I was edgy about.

On the other hand, I also feel safe in my home area, and this is a gun-friendly area where I will occasionally see someone with a pistol on their hip at the supermarket and not give it a second thought.

There is a lot to be said for the effect of culture on the crime rate (and police attitudes for that matter), independent of actual laws or prohibitions. Didn't the article say that 30% of Icelanders have guns? Gunpolicy.org says about 5% of adults in DC live in a household with a firearm and the figure for Mexico is 3 registered guns per 100 people. If you had to pick between Reykjavik, Mexico City and DC, in which would you feel safest walking an unfamiliar street at night and in which would you place the most trust in the local police? More importantly, do you think the level of civilian and police armament in that ‘safest’ place was the thing that most influenced your decision? Or was it the culture of these places?

[Starboard Tack]

20. No problem. It is always good to have a civilized conversation, especially here.

You ask some good questions. If I had to pick the city I where I would feel the safest from those 3, I think Reykjavik. In DC or Mexico City, I would be far more sensitive about straying from the beaten path. I haven't spent a lot of time in either city, but I have walked the streets of both at night.
In a few days I'll be in Guadalajara, where there was considerable violence last week. However, as I mentioned before, Mexico feels safe pretty much everywhere, but it is good to be alert and not get caught in the crossfire.
I concur with you about wandering certain areas of London and other UK cities, though not because one might get shot. Shootings are such a rarity there. More likely to be knifed or just beaten.
But I'm an old guy and don't present a threat any longer, so I feel safe pretty much anywhere.

Top of my list of safe cities are Rome and Florence. My decision is always influenced by culture, not police armament. That said, the paramilitary image of regular beat cops in the US does reflect the culture.
I support the right to own a gun and even carry when necessary, but I strongly oppose the culture that promotes and supports the routine carry of firearms by both police and civilians.

[DashOneBravo]

22. How's Mexico City now?

I stopped traveling down there a couple of years ago. I always stayed at the Maas Hotel, it was on the left of the U.S. Embassy if you were facing it.

Wasn't really impressed with the LEO's I saw carrying weapons. There was always one or two who had their fingers on the trigger of a worn out MP5.

[Starboard Tack]

23. As I said, I've spent little time there

Most of my time here in Mexico is spent in coastal areas. Right now, I'm in La Paz, but will be travelling to a few places on the mainland next week, including Mexico City, by bus.

They always seem to have their fingers on, or very close to the trigger, wherever I see them. Can't say as I blame them either. 16 cops were killed in an ambush last month in Jalisco and a helicopter was shot down last week by the New Generation cartel. Most of the guns look pretty worn out.

[DashOneBravo]

25. Mexico LEOs

Probably have one of the worst jobs in the world. The ones I interacted with may not have had the best training but a lot of them suit up everyday trying to make it a better place.

[DashOneBravo]

21. IMO policing is regional

It's probably easier to get to the "bloody civilized" level when your land mass is about the size of one of our state parks.

[Shamash]

24. I was going to say something about them having lived there longer

But then I remembered we just celebrated the 70th anniversary of VE day, so even our European friends are still quite willing to put the "bloody" in "bloody civilized" and had no problem in picking up guns and using them on total strangers. Whether they get over it and stay civilized better than we do is still open for debate. Check back in with me when they do the 150th anniversary, since that's where we're at with the Civil War.

[DashOneBravo]

27. That's a good point

I know we sure shipped a lot of war material over to the UK.

I seem to remember reading an article on the U.S. sending rifles over first. They didn't mind them then.

[MADem]

26. The CITIZENS in those countries don't carry guns either.

It's only in this place that people want to be cowboys or mobsters or secret agents.

UK does have flying squads that have guns in the trunk of the car--they respond if there's a 'gun problem' and those have increased in recent years. They're available to respond as needed--it's like having a Life Flight helo on standby.

[gejohnston]

28. their mobsters have carry guns

and legal CCW have been strictly regulated or banned from the 1920s-1990s in the US. Our cops carried guns then too. BTW, it is easier to get a civilian CCW in Germany and Canada than it is in DC or New Jersey.
UK actually has roving armed patrols.