Where are the boundaries on owning guns?

[SecularMotion]

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled seven years ago in District of Columbia vs. Heller that the 2nd Amendment "conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms," but it also said that right was "not unlimited." Government and courts have been wrestling ever since over just how far an individual's right goes, and a decision Friday by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit may help draw some much-needed boundaries.

The District of Columbia has enacted stringent gun-control laws over the years, responding in large part to the city's seemingly relentless gun violence. The 2008 case centered on a requirement that gun owners make their weapons essentially inoperable if they kept them in the house. The court tossed out that law as too restrictive, and established the individual right to keep a gun in the house for self-protection. The District of Columbia has since adopted more gun laws, drawing more court challenges.

First, the good part about the D.C. Circuit's ruling, which doesn't bind courts outside the nation's capital but can influence them: It recognized that the government can require gun owners to provide a photograph and fingerprints to register a handgun because there is a legitimate public safety interest in doing so. It also said the government has the authority to require registration of long guns — shotguns and rifles. Both of those can help keep guns out of the hands of convicted felons, domestic abusers, the mentally ill and others barred by law from having them.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-0922-guns-dc-20150923-story.html

[TeddyR]

1. Philosophical question

You don't know until some state enacts a law that is deemed unconstitutional. According to the D.C. Circuit Court, a ban on registering more than one gun a month is unconstitutional, and you can't pass a law that renders a firearm inoperable in the home, so we know those are outside the boundary. End of the day, whether a state is going to have more stringent or less stringent gun control laws is up to the state. I live in Virginia, which has very reasonable gun control laws, as opposed to D.C. and Maryland right next door, which have very draconian gun control laws, and yet have more problems with gun violence than does Virginia. Perhaps that's an indication that the problem isn't the gun but who has the gun.

[SecularMotion]

2. 100% of guns in D.C came from outside the state

The majority came from neighboring states with weak gun laws, like Virginia.

http://projects.propublica.org/graphics/atf-gun-traces?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=where-do-the-guns-traced-in-your-state-come-from#District-of%20Columbia,imports

[gejohnston]

3. the ATF also said that the tracing data

is not and should not be used to support claims of trafficking or straw purchasing since DC residents can not legally go to those states to buy guns. All the data shows is that is where the last 4473 was filled out. For example, guy in Florida gets job in New Jersey. Guns get stolen in New Jersey and one shows up up at a DC crime scene. Since the guy bought that one of the guns in Guam when he was in the Air Force, one will be traced as coming from Guam thirty years ago. That is how many of them show up from Maryland. BTW, the number from outside of DC is not 100 percent.
https://www.atf.gov/file/89661/download

The criminals don't go to Virginia to buy them because criminals don't go to gun stores or guns shows, and the 1968 Gun Control Act prohibits interstate sale without a dealers license in the buyer's state from getting involved. Yes, that is also how internet sales work. BTW, how come places with those laxer gun laws don't have the problems DC and Chicago have?

[jimmy the one]

7. DC & chicago fare well enough against gun cities

teddyR: I live in Virginia, which has very reasonable gun control laws, as opposed to D.C. and Maryland right next door, which have very draconian gun control laws, and yet have more problems with gun violence than does Virginia. Perhaps that's an indication that the problem isn't the gun but who has the gun.

Maryland & DC do not have 'very draconian gun control laws'. No state (or DC) in America has 'very draconian gun control laws'. The 9 gun control states plus DC have relatively strict gun control laws compared with the other states, especially those pro gun states which have very LAX gun control laws. DC & Richmond Va are considered sister cities:

...........................pop......... vcrime..murd ... rape .. robb.. asslt .. prop cr .. burg ... larc ....car thft
Virginia Richmond 207,799 .. 648.. 20.2 .. 18.3.. 304.6 .. 305.6.. 4,380.7.. 976.9 ..2,953.8 ..450.0
Wash DC .............632,323 ..1,177 ..13.9... 37.3 ..589.1 ...537.5 ..4,628.0 ..556.5 ..3,510.2.. 561.3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(2012)

secmo: The majority came from neighboring states with weak gun laws, like Virginia.
Johnston: the number from outside of DC is not 100 percent.

The figure was indeed 100% in the link secmo posted underneath his comment: .. traces on 865 guns in DC in 2012 .. 865 - 100% - were originally purchased outside the state. The glaring error imo, what 'state'?
Secmo's link was 2012, the link you posted to was for 2014 (which had 36 of 814 traces from DC) ; secmo was correct in his 100% figure, but incorrect, in that Virginia was the top trace plurality (not majority) state for guns into DC for 2012 - I think he originally meant it for both md & va as 'neighboring states', which would make him correct as 268 traces from va plus 220 from md is a majority of 865.

Johnston: .. how come places with those laxer gun laws don't have the problems DC and Chicago have?

Like these? There are only ~35 places (aka large cities >500k people) with populations contrastable with Chicago & DC, tho smaller cities >100k can also fit in a crime comparison.

....all rates, 2012..pop.. violcr... murder... prop
Gun control cities
Wash DC ... .632,323.. 1,177 ..13.9... ..4,628
Los Angeles 3,855,122 ...481 ....7.8 ......2,269 (+~14%vcr,2014)
Baltimore 625,474 .......1,405 ....35 ..... 4,660
New York 8,289,415 ......639 .... 5.1 .....1,722 (still champ >500k people)
Chicago 2,708,382 ........N/A ....18.3 .... 4,152 (handguns ok 2011)
Chicago 2,718,782........ 900 ............. 3,571 - http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/il/chicago/crime/

Pro gun cities:
Tenn Memphis 657,436 ....1,750 ....20.2 ....6,312
Dallas 1,241,549 ..................675 .....12.4 ...4,373
Houston 2,177,273 ...............992 .....10.0 ...4,945
Kansas City 464,073 ...........1,263 ......22 ....5,525
Nashville 620,886 ..............1,216 .....10.0.....4,195
St. Louis 318,667 ..............1,776 ......35 .....6,902 (siccw 2005)
Detroit 707,096 .................2,122 ......54 ....5,792 (siccw 2002, leans gun)
New Orleans 362,874............815 .......53 .....3,772
Oklahoma City 595,607 ........919 ......14.3 .... 5,941
Richmond .. 207,799.0 ........ 648.. 20.2 ..4,380
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate_(2012)

2010 .. Gun-Memphis,TN ..... Chicago,IL = gun control
Total Crime Risk.. 364.............. 238
Murder Risk .......361.............. 356 -- parity
Rape Risk..........342.............. 260
Robbery Risk...... 522.............. 465
Assault Risk...... 286.............. 289 -- parity
Burglary Risk..... 366.............. 122
Larceny Risk...... 205.............. 133
MotVeh TheftRisk.. 374.............. 212

[gejohnston]

8. post hoc ergo propter hoc

also, criminals don't get their guns through legal means, therefore "gun friendly" is irrelevant.
As for your incoherent rant

[jimmy the one]

10. explain yourself

johnston: post hoc ergo propter hoc

Where did I make any correlation/causation remark? you just can't toss out the maxim whenever you have little relevant to say about anything, and use it as a coverall to try to appear smart. You need justify what you're talking about, & I doubt you can here.

johnston: also, criminals don't get their guns through legal means, therefore "gun friendly" is irrelevant.

Gong. Lotsa criminals got their guns while they were 'non criminals', either law abiding gun owners, or defacto criminals who hadn't been convicted or charged yet. You born yday?
Where you come up with 'gun friendly'? and why is it irrelevant? you again make non specific broad remarks without explaining much of anything whatsoever.

johnston: As for your incoherent rant

Written in plain english? your use of emoticons impresses children a lot I'll bet. Was that one of you 'ROFL' or ROFLAO'?
But why were you laughing? if you couldn't understand it, what made you laugh?

[friendly_iconoclast]

12. "DC & Richmond Va are considered sister cities" They are ca. 100 miles apart:

https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+richmond+dc&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Perhaps you are thinking of Baltimore?

[jimmy the one]

15. kissing sisters

icon: DC & Richmond Va are considered sister cities" They are ca. 100 miles apart:

Well aware, used to travel it yearly down 95 going to & from Norfolk naval bases. Even longer when you give DC a wide berth to avoid the DC traffic MESS, tack on approx. 25 miles from Hagerstown to Richmond route thru martinsburg. Worth it to avoid stop & go for hours just to get to Fredericksburg.

DC & Richmond can be considered sister cities due their demographics, pop density.
I suppose Baltimore could be as well, along with dozens other cities accd'g to demographics, but was referring to sister cities for gun control comparisons between pro gun Virginia & gun control DC:

The political bureaucracies of Richmond and the District of Columbia are becoming kindred spirits — sister cities, perhaps. http://www.styleweekly.com/richmond/marion-barrys-man-in-richmond/Content?oid=1365159

.... white/wh-hisp......hisp ........ black .. Asian .. nat-am .. other.. hisp any race
DC: 2000 30.8% ..27.8% ... 60.0% ..2.7%.. 0.4% ..3.8%....... 7.9
Rich:2010 ..40%..<&lt H-incl) .. 50.6%.. 5% ..0.3% ..3.6 ........ 6.3

rich: Density 1,400/km2 (3,625/sq mi)
DC: ........... 9,800/sq mi

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. Cousins, maybe. Baltimore is a far better fit in size, distance, demographics, gun laws...

...and a murder rate that is 75% greater than Richmond's, per the
statistics that you provided in post #7...

[jimmy the one]

9. GJ man not up to speed on DC gun laws

johnston: ... the ATF also said that the tracing data is not and should not be used to support claims of trafficking or straw purchasing since DC residents can not legally go to those states to buy guns.

You have a link to this? or are you using the classic 'Liar's Link' >>> It's on google. It's everywhere. Hundreds of citations all over! (this is beevul's favorite source link).
Tell me more about how '..DC residents can not legally go to those states to buy guns.' For I disagree.

johnston: The criminals don't go to Virginia to buy them because criminals don't go to gun stores or guns shows,

Happens a lot over there, you born yday?

johnston: .. and the 1968 Gun Control Act prohibits interstate sale without a dealers license in the buyer's state from getting involved.

You really shouldn't speak authoritatively about DC gun laws johnston, you're not up to speed.

[friendly_iconoclast]

11. In this case Johnston is up to speed, and you are incorrect. Behold Public Law 90-618:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-82/pdf/STATUTE-82-Pg1213-2.pdf

§ 178.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State;

(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of § 178.96(c)....

§ 178.96 Out-of-State and mail order sales.

c) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun, and a licensed collector may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun which is a curio or relic, to a nonlicensed resident of a State other than the State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee's premises to accomplish the transfer, sale and delivery of the rifle or shotgun and the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States. For purposes of this paragraph, any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is presumed, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both such States.

I wouldn't be so quick to belittle Google, were I you; if you had done so you would not
have egg on your face now

[pablo_marmol]

13. Sir James got caught prevaricating once again?!

Recently there was the "AR 15s are not in common use" nonsense. Now this.

James' batting average remains weak.

[jimmy the one]

14. unbelievably, icon does my work for me

icon: I wouldn't be so quick to belittle Google, were I you; if you had done so you would not have egg on your face now
Pablo: Sir James got caught prevaricating once again?!

I have no egg on the face, you do.
Can you two even read? make it double egg, scrambled up; icon posts the proof of what I said, & then smugly says I'm wrong. Can't stop laughing at the both of you.

178.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees. No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State: Provided, That the provisions of this section:
(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State;
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of § 178.96(c)

There are something like 100,000 long guns in DC, have been even during the handgun ban years, where do you think they came from?

§ 178.96 Out-of-State and mail order sales. c) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun, and a licensed collector may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun which is a curio or relic, to a nonlicensed resident of a State other than the State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee's premises to accomplish the transfer, sale and delivery of the rifle or shotgun and the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States. For purposes of this paragraph, any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer is presumed, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both such States.

[friendly_iconoclast]

16. We were talking about *handguns*, not long arms. Interstate transfer of those is still illegal

Considering that there were only 2 murders out of 103 listed as being committed
vial rifle or shotgun (vs 17 via hands, fists, feets and cutting/stabbing weapons)
in the last full-year statistics available...

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-20/table_20_murder_by_state_types_of_weapons_2013.xls


...the distinction is important

[jimmy the one]

18. who's this 'we', kimosabe?

icon: We were talking about *handguns*, not long arms. Interstate transfer of those is still illegal

No, WE weren't. WE, that is Johnston to whom I replied to, wrote this:

GJohnston: the ATF also said that the tracing data is not and should not be used to support claims of trafficking or straw purchasing since DC residents can not legally go to those states to buy guns.
All the data shows is that is where the last 4473 was filled out. For example, guy in Florida gets job in New Jersey. Guns get stolen in New Jersey and one shows up up at a DC crime scene. Since the guy bought that one of the guns in Guam when he was in the Air Force, one will be traced as coming from Guam thirty years ago.
https://www.atf.gov/file/89661/download

Johnston's link to DC traces listed 219 rifles & shotguns out of 1345 total gun traces. Johnston was speaking of GUNS, not just handguns. Whether he goofed is pretty apparent since he hasn't peeped a word about it (likely be joined by his amigo marmol imo).

Who's this 'we' you refer to, egg faced kimosabe?
Can't stop laughing!!!

[DonP]

4. The "Boundaries" are outlined by more court cases, using very expen$ive paint

Chicago, San Francisco, DC and other cities don't like a ruling and wind up in court, usually facing someone with standing backed by the SAF, NRA and/or state associations. And as one appellate judge said, "Don't try to be too cute by half" with new regulations that try an ignore the rulings and get their hands slapped again and pay more big (as in 6 or 7 figure) legal fees that come from the taxpayers. Surprisingly, Bloomberg doesn't reimburse the taxpayers for following his gun control advice.

Based on the track record, gun control aren't the ones defining those boundaries. With the SAF/NRA et. al winning most of those cases the control people have to desperately cling to the 1 or 2 regulations that weren't thrown out .... yet.

I'm betting that the fingerprinting and long gun registration they are all excited about now won't make it past the next "out of DC"
court challenge, any more than a voting ID law or "Free Speech" registration requirement should be allowed for other constitutional rights.

[hack89]

5. Peruta v. San Diego County will be the game changer in regards to boundaries.

it will extend Heller's right to self defense to the public space and make concealed carry permitting uniformly "shall issue".

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. "How much can I get away with and still go to Heaven?"