Smart guns aren't necessary to make guns much safer than they currently are.

[flamin lib]

https://www.thetrace.org/2016/06/low-tech-ways-manufacturers-can-make-guns-safer/

Five Low-Tech Ways Manufacturers Can Make Guns Safer

Chambered round indicators

This feature is located on the top or side of the slide to inform the user of a semiautomatic pistol whether a round is in position to be fired.

Magazine release safeties

Magazine-disconnect features block the gun from firing when the magazine has been taken out.

Heavier trigger pulls

Guns with “light” pulls are more likely to fire when dropped, or when they snag on a piece of clothing.

Grip safeties

Most handguns have a manual safety — a switch, button, or lever that must be disengaged to allow the gun to fire, even when a round is chambered. But some models also have a grip safety: a lever on the rear of the gun that must be squeezed with the flesh just below the shooter’s thumb to allow the gun to fire.

Firing pin blocks

Firing pin blocks prevent a gun’s hammer from striking the pin unless the trigger is pulled to move the block out of the way.

There are no governmental regulations on the manufacture of firearms. None. There are more than 30 regulations pertaining to safety applied to the interior of automobiles. None on firearms. As a result deaths and injuries in auto accidents have fallen to a level below that of firearms and continue to fall as gun injuries rise at 1-2% a year.

It's time we fixed that.

[scscholar]

1. Or how about just not having one of those things in the first place?

[flamin lib]

5. Well that too. nt

[beevul]

2. None of things are any better than the owner who did or didn't read the owners manual.

Chambered round indicators

A whole lot of people wouldn't know one if they saw one.

Magazine release safeties

I'm not sure I see the utility of such a thing.

Heavier trigger pulls

Guns with “light” pulls are more likely to fire when dropped, or when they snag on a piece of clothing.

I'm not sure I agree with this either. The case of the NYPD and their ridiculous 'stupid heavy' trigger pull seems to speak against this idea.

Grip safeties

Most handguns have a manual safety — a switch, button, or lever that must be disengaged to allow the gun to fire, even when a round is chambered. But some models also have a grip safety: a lever on the rear of the gun that must be squeezed with the flesh just below the shooter’s thumb to allow the gun to fire.

I have no problem with them, however, I'm not sure they're necessary on a firearm that already has a manual safety.

Firing pin blocks

Firing pin blocks prevent a gun’s hammer from striking the pin unless the trigger is pulled to move the block out of the way.

I have no problem with them, so long as they're mechanical.

There are no governmental regulations on the manufacture of firearms. None. There are more than 30 regulations pertaining to safety applied to the interior of automobiles. None on firearms. As a result deaths and injuries in auto accidents have fallen to a level below that of firearms and continue to fall as gun injuries rise at 1-2% a year.

I'm pretty sure you're comparing apples and oranges here - comparing deaths and injuries in auto accidents, with something other than deaths and injuries in firearm accidents.

Not that it surprises me.

[DashOneBravo]

6. Magazine safety, I think

It's for when someone uses an improper procedure for clearing a pistol.

They rack the slide back and eject a round and then drop the magazine. This leaves a round in the chamber.

I think they are a good idea.

[beevul]

8. I'd prefer education.

Universal gun safety training. 12th grade.

[DashOneBravo]

9. Training is always good.

I think it's a preference thing. I don't like the external safety on a 1911. So I don't have one.

[Duckhunter935]

12. Training is always a good thing

Maybe some gun safety groups could engage in it

[Straw Man]

14. Don't like 'em.

Magazine safety, I think

It's for when someone uses an improper procedure for clearing a pistol.

They rack the slide back and eject a round and then drop the magazine. This leaves a round in the chamber.

I think they are a good idea.

I don't. They reinforce bad behavior. They teach people that once the magazine is dropped, the pistol is safe. I have seen people drop the mag on a pistol with a mag safety and then bench the pistol with a round still in the chamber. This is a disaster waiting for an opportunity to occur. Inserting an empty magazine would render that pistol fully operable and ready to fire again.

Keep the device simple, and rigorously train the user in its operation. That's the best way to achieve safety, IMO.

[beevul]

15. This, is what so many "common sense" proponents fail to understand.

Spot on, in fact.



What reinforces good behavior (in the same context)?


Education education education.

[DashOneBravo]

16. Notice I said improper procedure.

I'm from the same train rigorously school of thought. That's why I said up thread that training is always good.

Not everybody else trains like that.

[Straw Man]

17. Acknowledged and agreed.

I'm just cynical on technological fixes. My opinion is that the idiot will always defeat the idiot-proofing. Somewhere out there, there's somebody telling an instructor, "Don't worry about my finger being on the trigger on this pistol with a round chambered -- I've got a magazine disconnect safety."

That said, I don't have a huge problem with mag-disconnect safeties. Some of my pistols have them, and some don't. It doesn't affect my decision when choosing a pistol. However, they are useless to me as a safety device because they're preventing me from doing something that I never do and that no one should ever do. Ditto for loaded chamber indicators.

[DashOneBravo]

18. You are preaching to the choir

I sometimes help new pistol shooters. 😕 There should be a law requiring the first pistol be a revolver. Lol

Your last paragraph pretty much sums up my feelings also but those features could help new shooters who are not going to train and practice as much.

[Straw Man]

19. True.

I sometimes help new pistol shooters. 😕 There should be a law requiring the first pistol be a revolver. Lol

Your last paragraph pretty much sums up my feelings also but those features could help new shooters who are not going to train and practice as much.

Also true.

[Duckhunter935]

3. I agree with all but heavy trigger pull

Pistols almost never fire when dropped. Heavy trigger pull seriously affects accuracy. Last thing you need when people also want to limit magazine size. One if the reasons NYPD are lousy shots. Don't care for the Glock trigger safety, that is why I do not own one. You will find that is one of the major issues with negligent discharges.

[Straw Man]

4. Where to begin?

Chambered round indicators

This feature is located on the top or side of the slide to inform the user of a semiautomatic pistol whether a round is in position to be fired.

And what do they tell you? That's it's not safe to pull the trigger? And conversely, that it is safe to pull the trigger if you don't see the indicator? This encourages bad behavior. Never pull the trigger unless (a) you want to fire the gun or (b) you have visually inspected the chamber and the gun is pointed in a safe direction.

Magazine release safeties

Magazine-disconnect features block the gun from firing when the magazine has been taken out.

Possibly helpful for those who haven't been trained to drop the magazine before clearing the chamber, but also potentially rendering the pistol inoperable at a time of dire need.

Heavier trigger pulls

Guns with “light” pulls are more likely to fire when dropped, or when they snag on a piece of clothing.

The articles refers to gun advocates "believing that they make guns less accurate." It is not a matter of belief: a heavier trigger pull makes it harder to fire the gun accurately. Anyone with any shooting experience knows this, and it can be easily demonstrated to neophytes. The NYPD-mandated 11-pound Glock trigger is largely responsible for the high number of bystanders hit in recent police shootings in NY.

Grip safeties

Most handguns have a manual safety — a switch, button, or lever that must be disengaged to allow the gun to fire, even when a round is chambered. But some models also have a grip safety: a lever on the rear of the gun that must be squeezed with the flesh just below the shooter’s thumb to allow the gun to fire.

Grip safeties provide a redundant level of safety that may be advisable in a single-action-only handgun that is meant to be carried with the hammer cocked. For double-action-only handguns or double/single-action, they are unnecessary. They do not provide much in the way of child-proofing, since any child that could grip the gun in such a way as to be able to shoot it could also depress the grip safety.

Firing pin blocks

Firing pin blocks prevent a gun’s hammer from striking the pin unless the trigger is pulled to move the block out of the way.

Virtually all modern handguns already have this feature.

[jmg257]

7. Speaking of federal agency oversight - The FBI certainly wouldn't like it.

Last edited Tue Jun 7, 2016, 04:14 PM - Edit history (2)

F.B.I. Request For Proposals Requirements (for new 9mm)

BARREL LENGTH – Full size must be 4.26″ to 5.20″; Compact size must be 3.75″ to 4.25″
HEIGHT – Full size no more than 6.0″; Compact between 4.75″ to 5.6″
MAGAZINE CAPACITY – Full size at least 16 rounds; Compact at least 14 rounds
MAGAZINE DISCONNECT SAFETY – None allowed
COCKING – Only by trigger pull
TRIGGER – Firing pin/Striker fired only
TRIGGER PULL – 4.5 lbs. to 6 lbs.
MAGAZINE RELEASE – Laterally pushed, no levers
MANUAL EXTERNAL SAFETY – None allowed
DECOCKING LEVER – None allowed
GRIP SAFETY – None allowed
FRAME/RECEIVER – No finger grooves allowed, must have (3) sizes – small, medium, large; can be accomplished through inserts or different frame sizes.
PICATINNY RAIL – Required for pistol mounted lights.


I didn't mind a decocker/safety on my DA/SA M9/92F, but a magazine disconnect wasn't warranted (S&W were the only ones pushing them during the early semi-auto craze). Tough call there.

Grip safeties are cool on 1911s, again that's a SA, and it is sort of redundant to the thumb safety. Not a biggie either way if done right.

Firing pin blocks are just about a given these days, so no issues there.

Loaded chamber indicator? OK, the ones I have seen aren't very definitive, but fairly unobtrusive...I know I wouldn't rely on that to know if a gun is truly loaded.

Trigger pull that is consistent, and in the 7-8# range is very nice.

I find I liked the decockers on a Walther P99 to uncock the striker safely, and to lower the hammer on cocked pistols like the DA/SAs (Sig, Beretta). Also a nice feature.


ETA: Anyway - I think it will be VERY hard to get the govt to mandate feature standards when their own agencies do not want them.

[krispos42]

10. I think every modern gun has at leat one of these features.

Nearly all new guns sold now have their mechanisms designed to block the firing pin until and unless the trigger is pressed. Revolvers and semiautos alike. Replica guns sold may or may not have such modern features, though.

If such a feature exists, then the heavier trigger pull becomes irrelevant; the gun will not fire when dropped regards if the trigger pull is one pound or 15 pounds.


Many, but far from all, semiautos have loaded-chamber indicators, either a pop-up indicator or a viewing port that lets you see a bit of the cartridge in the chamber (if one is present).


Magazine-disconnect safeties... well, there are opposing opinions on the pluses and minuses of them.

Pistol-grip safeties, done properly seem to work just fine. Done improperly they can make shooting unreliable.



The fundamental problem, though, is that genuine accidents are pretty uncommon, so any improvements will likely not be statistically noticeable.



When I get my home-defense pistol, it will likely have several of those features. And be in a safe.

[melm00se]

11. i can address a few of these

Loaded chamber indicators

i own 4 modern pistols: 1 beretta (made in 1995), 1 browning and 2 rugers (all 3 less than 10 years old), all of them have loaded chamber indicators.

Magazine release safeties

of these, 3 have magazine safeties

Heavier trigger pulls

my beretta has a "heavy" DA 1st trigger pull (~11 pounds) and then about half that for the followup SA pull.

the others all have approximately the same pull weight as the SA on my beretta.

[beergood]

13. im personally against manual safties

they make people complacent. my hunter safety instructor told a story about a bunch of yahoos he encountered once, pointing loaded firearms at each other because their safety was engaged.

as long as the 4 rules of firearms safety are followed there should be no accidents.

treat your firearm as if it is always loaded

never point your firearm at anything you're not willing to kill/destroy

keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire

be aware of your target and whats behind it.

[Kang Colby]

20. ^^^I agree.

Last edited Fri Jun 10, 2016, 12:06 AM - Edit history (1)

As someone who shoots and carries Glock pistols, I can tell you that they cause me no undue concern. The safe action design has all of the safety features embedded within the system. If you are comfortable using the system and understand it, it's a heck of a formidable defensive firearm.

[beergood]

21. same here

glocks are fun guns, simple to operate and maintain. plus it was the first handgun i trained with, have some friends that are leo.