Since Aurora...

[tk2kewl]

http://www.demandaplan.org/tucson

[DonP]

1. MAIG Propaganda - and not very good either.

The unindicted (so far) and convicted Mayors against all guns everywhere now claim there are 48,000 deaths each year.

Why anyone would believe anything that comes from what has proven to be a breeding ground for criminal activity like MAIG is beyond me.

[PavePusher]

3. Ummm, to be fair, they said "term", not "year". n/t

[DonP]

5. "Term" = the length a typical MAIG mayor serves before indictment? Ntxt

[PavePusher]

36. they were refering to a presidential term...

but I see what you did there.

[ileus]

2. my wife bought a nice j frame.

And I ordered a cmmg 22lr kit for some family AR plinking time.

[TPaine7]

4. The only way to "end gun violence"

is to remove all guns from the planet and prevent the production of more guns. (Police and soldiers are responsible for gun violence too, even illegal gun violence.)

There is only one entity capable of pulling of that off...

Let us pray.

[tk2kewl]

6. might as well pray to end global climate change and hunger too

that aint gonna do nothing

real things can and should be done to reduce gun violence.

[DonP]

7. "real things" like ???

[ileus]

8. only a true ban will work.

[Starboard Tack]

16. Very true. It's all about the will of the people.

There is a limit, or tolerance level to everything. Camel and straw.

[ileus]

25. Even I admit only a total ban

Will stop all firearm abuse.

[Jenoch]

24. Would your gun ban

be in any way similar to the ban on alcohol and the ban on illicit drugs?

[ileus]

29. A true ban would included door to door operations

For months and years to rid America of it's bad habit. We'd encourage neighbors to turn in neighbors, family and friends. Those caught with death spewers would be jailed for no less than 5 years.

This total ban would work because it's hard to deny how much better society would be without basers intimidating our fellow citizens.

Yes indeed, no more rude toters with guns stuffed in their pants.

No more practicing to kill people under the facade of "target" shooting.

No more innocent animals being murdered for sport.

No more suicide by gun.

No more "accidental" shootings.

A society free of gunner pollution.

[Jenoch]

38. Do you really believe what you

have described is the best way to reduce gun crime in this country? Do you really believe disarming every law-abiding citizen in this country would stop all gun crime? Do you believe that the criminals would voluntarily give up their weapons? What color is the sky in your world?

edit:

After a little more thought I came to the conclusion that for your scenario to happen the 2nd Amendment would have to be repealed. If it was repealed, before a law could be passed outlawing private ownership of arms in the U.S. the republicans would have a supermajority in both houses of congress and probably would so for generations afterwards, not to mention the Whitehouse.

[gejohnston]

40. he is a genius at satire

sometimes I think Hoyt tries to imitate him, other times I think Hoyt is a true believer.

[Jenoch]

43. Ok, have I

been duped? Are both Hoyt and ileus RKBA supporters? Are their posts satire?

Ok, I read a few more on ilieus' posts on a few other threads. Boy, is he good at the satire. I wish I had not been duped. Hoyt on the other hand is just an old Georgia former robber.

[gejohnston]

45. ileus certainly is,

still trying to figure out Hoyt.

[ileus]

46. No....No really guns kill people.

[tortoise1956]

65. Some pearls of wisdom

Guns don't kill people - unless you beat someone to death with one.

Guns don't kill people - bullets kill people.

Guns don't kill people - haters with guns kill people.

Any questions?

[hack89]

51. Ileus is one of the good guys. nt

[Starboard Tack]

9. If humans are capable of creating something, be it gods or guns, they can also get over them

The idea of an almighty god who is actually in charge of everything is as crazy as calling a gun a "safety device".
Even 8 track cassettes were fun for a while.

[gejohnston]

10. the 8 track was replaced by something better

just like the pistol replaced the sword. Maybe a phaser will replace the pistol.

[Starboard Tack]

13. Exactly.

I would say that guns replaced bows and slingshots and catapults.
If you look at the advances in technology over the past 50 years, you'd think we'd be way past where we are with guns. Too much corporate entrenchment still. Someone definitely needs to invent an efficient, non-lethal, stopping weapon, and it won't be long before all lethal weapons will be banned from civilian life.

[gejohnston]

17. there is no corporate entrenchment

we are talking mostly small family businesses with a few exceptions. Even Smith and Wesson employs about 1400 people. I doubt Glock's Austrian factory is that much larger. The only reason such technology doesn't exist is because, it doesn't exist.

[Starboard Tack]

19. Someone probably said that once about the wheel.

Damn, I didn't realize the gun industry was a "mom & pop" operation. Shame on me. I learn something new every day.
There was me thinking it was a 60 billion dollar industry. Maybe the NRA is wrong.

Among the remarkable statistics uncovered in the study is that between 2008 and 2011 the firearms industry experienced a 30.6 percent increase in jobs, a 66.5 percent increase in economic impact, and a 66.5 percent increase in federal taxes paid by industry companies.

“During difficult economic times and high unemployment rates nationally, our industry actually grew and created more than ten thousand new, well-paying jobs,” said NSSF President Steve Sanetti. “Our industry is proud to be one of the bright spots in this economy.”

The firearms industry has stood apart from other industries by thriving in a down economy. Indicators such as background-check statistics, firearms production and importation, firearm-retailer surveys, and on-the-ground reports from retailers nationwide reveal that Americans are purchasing firearms in record numbers. For example, federal background checks for March totaled nearly 1.2 million in adjusted figures, representing an increase of 20 percent over a year ago and the 22nd straight month-over-month increase. (NSSF adjusts figures from the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to remove purpose-code checks associated concealed carry applications and permits. Though not a direct correlation to firearm sales, adjusted NICS figures provide a more accurate picture of market conditions.)
http://www.nrahuntersrights.org/Article.aspx?id=6448

[gejohnston]

26. That is the entire industry worldwide

of course that does not include military contracts for FN and other European companies.

Oh yeah, that is impact, not revenue. Impact is the domino effect, or the wave created by a stone falling in the water. Almost $500 million a year going to FWS for wildlife habitat is nothing to sneeze at. With the 11 percent tax, total revenue that year is about $5 billion. Netflex alone claims annual revenue about two billion dollars.

[Glassunion]

41. I want a phaser damn bad.

No phaser:
Boss: Go up there and replace the $2,000 computer... The screen is too dim!!!
Me: The afternoon sun is causing glare. They need a $10 window shade.
Boss: I don't care. Get your ass up there and do something that will do nothing.
Me: (wait for cloudy day) replace computer.
Boss: They loved the new computer!
Me: Whatever... ($2,000 less is profit sharing this year)


With phaser:
Boss: Go up there and replace the $2,000 computer... The screen is too dim!!!
Me: The afternoon sun is causing glare. They need a $10 window shade.
Boss: I don't care. Get your ass up there and do something that will do nothing.
Me: (phaser on stun, zap boss in the back of the head)

Boss: Did you catch the color of the Yankees game?
Me: Yep!

[Oneka]

49. "it won't be long before all lethal weapons will be banned from civilian life."

I can't wait, life will be so much simpler without

Baseball bats,
cars,
kitchen knives,
garden weasels,
golf clubs,
pool cues,
shovels,
axes,
rope,
toasters, near bathtubs,
piano wire,
electric guitars,
porcelain vases,
chia pets,heads,and herb gardens
hands,
feet,
fire,
glass bottles,
power drills,
chainsaws,
heavy table lamps,
lead pipe,
We can totally get back to nature with all these lethal weapons BANNED, i'm really gonna miss fire though.

[Starboard Tack]

52. Glad to see you take these things seriously

[Oneka]

59. Make a rediculous statement:

Expect an equally rediculous response.

Or was i mistaken, and you really believe that, all lethal weapons will soon be banned.

[Starboard Tack]

61. Do you really want to play silly word games?

If so, how would you define "rediculous"? Does it mean being diculous again as in revisit, or backward as in rewind.

By lethal weapons, as you well know, I refer to those weapons which are designed specifically to kill humans. Not random objects or body parts which can be used to kill.

[Oneka]

64. my god man,,,,,

i try to play silly word games and the spelling police show up and ruin all my fun.

Yes i do "well know" that you meant firearms when you made that rIdiculous claim, that

it won't be long before all lethal weapons will be banned from civilian life.

We both know that firearm bans, outside of a few select cities, are a political poison pill, and will be for a good long time to come.

[Starboard Tack]

67. I don't advocate the bans, I just foresee them

[Oneka]

69. I see that.

You were very careful in how you phrased your ridiculous statement. That's what makes it so ridiculous, if you had just come out and said that you wanted bans on all lethal firearms for civilian life, i simply would have believed you, and moved on. But you claim that it actually might happen, and that just makes me,

[Starboard Tack]

72. Laugh away. I say lots of stuff that sounds ridiculous to others.

Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. It isn't a big deal. Experience tells me that when the children misbehave, responsible parents take their toys away. It's a shame because those toys can be a lot of fun, but in the end, there are more important things in life.

[gejohnston]

74. that has to be the worst analogy

on so many levels.

[Starboard Tack]

75. Oh really? I thought it was pretty good.

Especially, coming from a country where that happened, much to the chagrin of those who were very responsible with their toys. The few assholes out there always tend to screw things up for the rest of us. I guess that's why we have wars.

[gejohnston]

76. but they seem to have

more of those assholes than before. When you were a bobby, did you wear a vest? Did you have to investigate a drive shooting by some gangster with an SMG?

[Starboard Tack]

77. No vests, no guns except in extreme circumstances.

One time we had to apprehend an armed suspect who had already killed. He was surrounded by close to 100 officers and one marksman. The marksman was under orders to shoot him in the leg if he didn't surrender. If he then shot to kill, the cop would have been charged with murder. Guy surrendered.
Another time, we received a call of the most wanted guy in the country having been sighted sleeping in a field on the outskirts of town. He had already killed 3 cops in one incident, which sent the whole country into shock. Almost everyone carried a photo of the guy for weeks. Anyway, my partner and I responded to the call. He didn't want to go unarmed, but we had no access to firearms, except the "humane killer", which we used to shoot injured dogs. So we took that. Still makes me chuckle to this day. Missed our killer by about 10 minutes. He was caught a few weeks later camping in Epping Forest.

Guns are very handy when going into battle with others who use them.

[gejohnston]

79. they wear vests now

If the marksman hit the femoral artery by accident, would he still be charged with murder? Last year, I think it was Del Ray Beach, some knife wielding guy knocked over a deli. The clerk/owner gave him whatever was in the register. Instead of just taking the money and running, he decided to take an 18 month old hostage, the owner's kid. That got him shot in the leg, The bullet sliced the femoral artery, killing him within a minute.

[Starboard Tack]

83. Thems the chances you take when shooting someone.

I doubt vests are worn routinely by all cops in the UK. They aren't here either, at least not where I am. Fortunately, vests don't kill people. If I lived in a place where I felt the need to carry a gun and couldn't relocate for some unimaginable reason, I'd take a vest over a gun. I'm interested in living, not preventing others from living.

[gejohnston]

85. actually they do

the vests are under the shirts of patrol officers. Detectives, not so much. The difference between UK and US cops, as I understand it, the UK ones are knife and and bullet resistant, while the US ones are only bullet resistant.

[Starboard Tack]

89. Fascinating!

Makes sense, I guess. More cops were killed in the line of duty last year in the US than all cops killed since 1900. Those vests will probably help keep those numbers down.

[gejohnston]

91. many were shot in the head

cops wearing vests was a common practice dating back to the 1980s, but not commonly known, until Brady et al started ranting about mythical "cop killer bullets" in the late 1980s. That is why many police departments told Brady to STFU.

[Starboard Tack]

93. Most in the US were killed in traffic accidents until last year, when guns took over. About 170/year

I think the UK police prefer being attacked by knives than guns, though neither is a pleasant experience. We used to get in scraps all the time. Thankfully, neither we nor those we had to deal with used weapons apart from hands, heads and feet.

Some 37 police officers have been murdered in the line of duty in the past two decades in England, Scotland and Wales.

Fatal stabbings of British police officers - the majority of whom are unarmed - are rare, but serve as a reminder of the dangers of the job.

Of the officers murdered in England, Scotland and Wales since 1985, 12 have been killed by vehicles, 12 shot, 11 stabbed and three died after being beaten, according to the Police Roll of Honour Trust.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4451852.stm

[gejohnston]

94. In Wyoming

the number is one, a game warden in 1913. Specifically the WHP only three, all by cars since 1937.
Shit, there I go sounding like hockeymom again.

[Starboard Tack]

98. Sounds like you miss WY big time.

Do you read CJ Box? I love that guy.

[Jenoch]

92. The bullet

resistant vests worn by law enforcement officers in the U.S. have metal or ceramic plates that cover the sternum so that a knife cannot be plunged into their heart. Of course a perp could plunge a knife into their abdomen.

[Oneka]

78. I agree

When children misbehave, responsible parents do take thier toys away.
They don't force All Children to hand over thier toys, using the force of government, due to the misbehavior of 1 child.

[Starboard Tack]

90. Actually, one child often fucks things up for the rest.

Keeps those "mavericky" types from leading the herd into deep water.

[Oneka]

95. When a situation arises where one child "fucks things up"

for a group of innocent children, we call that bad parenting.

On a societal level we call that same situation, really fucking dangerous government.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

96. +1!

[Starboard Tack]

97. Actually it's called group responsibility.

Ask anyone who has been through boot camp.

[Oneka]

99. Actually it's called group responsibility

Spoken like a true believer, in authoritarianism.

[Starboard Tack]

101. Social responsibility is not authoritarianism.

Maybe you've never been part of a team. If you had , you'd understand the concept of common good versus individual desire.

[gejohnston]

103. that is not the same as group punishment

which is authoritarianism. My responsibility to society is to pay my taxes, obey the law (other than immoral laws in extreme cases, which are rare), help fund community stuff in addition to taxes or if politicians squander tax money on bullshit (for example donate disposable income to the local library or bullet proof vests for police dogs because the county commission decided corporate welfare to developers and fucking sports teams is more important. That is something that pisses me off about Florida), help someone on the side of the road, and harm no one who isn't trying to harm me. That is a few of my responsibilities to society. Being legally armed or not does not affect that.

[Starboard Tack]

105. Remember that next time you go to an airport.

Remember it next time you see a sobriety checkpoint. Remember it next time you have to show ID for anything.
We live in a world full of rules and restrictions, all of which were put in place because of a tiny minority of assholes.

[gejohnston]

106. I have never been to a sobriety check point

have been pulled over one St Pats day evening and asked a stupid question just to get a wiff. ID is no big deal.

[Starboard Tack]

108. Me too. But that was a sobriety checkpoint.

[gejohnston]

100. funny,

I went through boot camp twice, army and air force, and I didn't notice group punishment to the degree you are talking about. Is that how the Brits do it?

[Starboard Tack]

102. Let me give you an even better analogy.

How much have individual rights suffered for everyone since a handful of assholes flew planes into buildings on 9/11? All those assholes are dead and we all pay the price every day, especially those of us who travel by air.

[gejohnston]

104. compliments of Bush and Cheney

two fascists, not a term I don't use lightly, and fucking sociopaths.

[Starboard Tack]

107. Agreed!

[HALO141]

80. "when the children misbehave, responsible parents take their toys away"

The government is not my parent.

[spin]

71. You need a new crystal ball ...

if you think many firearm bans will occur anytime soon.

[Starboard Tack]

73. I have no idea how soon. Soon is a relative term.

Depends how strong the camel's back is.

[thomasrageface]

50. When some one is trying to kill you...playing around with complex non-lethal weapons is foolish.

Since the siege of De'an in 1132 when fire-lances, the crude ancestor to our modern firearms first appeared,humans have been seeking faster, more accurate, more reliable ways weapons with which to kill. Until we master-man portal lasers that can burn a smoking hole into or through the human body no one is going to settle for a taser like device.

[Starboard Tack]

62. So we should accept how fucked up we are, right?

We also used to crucify people. We used to have the death penalty. Oh, right, some states still have it in this wonderful "land of the free, home of the brave". We used to have respect in this world too, until just about every other country sailed past us on issues like carrying guns, health care and the death penalty.

[gejohnston]

63. What is this "we" shit?

The Romans used to crucify.
Japan and Cuba also has the death penalty. So does California.
These states however............
Michigan (1846), Wisconsin (1853), Maine (1887), Minnesota (1911), Hawaii (1948), Alaska (1957), Vermont (1964), Iowa (1965), West Virginia (1965), North Dakota (1973), Rhode Island (1979), Massachusetts (1984 – de facto judicial abolition, retains statute), New York (2004 – de facto judicial abolition, retains statute), New Jersey (2007), New Mexico (2009), Illinois (2011), and Connecticut (2012).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_country

[Starboard Tack]

68. "We" would be the U.S.

What's your point? That 2 other countries have the death penalty. Only one, Cuba, in the western hemisphere. Count how many don't and you'll find they also have universal healthcare and a fraction of the handgun violence.

Your link establishes my point very well.

[gejohnston]

70. let's see

Mexico, Brazil, Costa Rica, have universal health care, they have murder rates far worse than ours. So does Cuba. Mexico's seem to be machete and machine gun more than handgun. The rest, weapon isn't relevant. What you are talking about is limited the usual wealthy democracies and the UK Commonwealth. Healthcare, murder rates, and gun laws have nothing to do with each other.

[HALO141]

81. Do you seriously believe

that U.S. standing with the rest of the world is dependent on our internal gun policy?

[Missycim]

11. wow I guess anti gun people can insult believers in God

and get away with it? dang

[Starboard Tack]

14. FYI Missy, I am not anti-gun, just those who carry indiscriminately. I am against foolishness.

Nor am I against those who believe in a god. My reference was to an almighty god who is in charge of everything, taking away personal responsibility. God's mysterious ways kind of crap. Humans create gods to suit their particular purpose.

[Union Scribe]

54. Welcome to DU

People can get away with posting anything insulting unpopular groups, including religious people and gun owners. They call it "community standards." It's about as Democratic as union-bashing but, oh wait that's okay here too.

[Missycim]

55. Thanks

I dont know if i will last here being insulted for not only my beliefs but my stance on the 2nd disbandment.

[ohiosmith]

12. This post was alerted on. The jury voted 5/1 to let it stand.

At Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:25 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

If humans are capable of creating something, be it gods or guns, they can also get over them
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=58592

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

This poster says that anyone of faith (Christian or otherwise) is crazy. If i said that about Muslims or any other religion. I'd be banned.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Aug 7, 2012, 11:33 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The poster did not say "that anyone of faith (Christian or otherwise) is crazy". He said "The idea of an almighty god who is actually in charge of everything is as crazy....". It's an opinion! Leave the post!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I tend to agree with the point the poster made. But only that point. To his other point, a lot of folks do consider guns as a safety device, that's what's crazy.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This isn't an attack on any particular religion or person. If you want to take objection to the commenter calling God a man-made entity, you can do so. As it stands, this post is inoffensive. (And I'm not even an atheist.)
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really stupid alerts make the baby Jesus cry.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Starboard Tack]

15. Thanks. I guess some will alert on anything.

[ileus]

20. silly alert IMHO.

[bongbong]

33. Tom Tomorrow said it best

Gun religionists are sensitive "Delicate Flowers"

[gejohnston]

34. you get policy advice from a comic strip?

[bongbong]

37. Wow

Policy advice? Yeah, another bullseye from the literal-thinkers in the gungeon.

I don't think a 1st grader could get my point - but most 2nd graders could.

[gejohnston]

39. since your points are usually on a toddler level

it would be gibberish to a first grader, annoying to a second grader, and "cute" to an adult.

[bongbong]

42. You can do better than that!

"I'm rubber, you're glue" is so 2nd grade.

[gejohnston]

44. Project much?

[bongbong]

56. Only about 1/9,999,999 as gun relgionists

[gejohnston]

57. yep you project

more substance and intellect free nonsense
Bless your heart.

[bongbong]

58. yep, you project

constantly.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

47. which Juror were you?

[tortoise1956]

66. You're shitting me

Are these actually the comments from the jury? And these are our peers?

I can agree with the decision jurors 2 and 4 made. They gave a rational reason for their decision. Juror 1 and 6, who knows? However, 3 and 5 weren't subtle at all in airing their own personal biases, which evidently factored into their decisions. Not very adult of them.

Good thing there's no prejudice on this site - unless, of course, you believe in something that's "evil".

I'm waiting for the alert...

[HALO141]

18. "Safety device," no...

Emergency equipment, yes.

[Starboard Tack]

22. Emergency equipment, possibly. During real emergencies.

Daily apparel, no. Church wear, no. Classroom apparel, no.

[HALO141]

27. Have you ever experienced an emergency?

Flat tire, accident, mechanical breakdown, ran out of cash at a really bad time... Did you know it was going to happen? No, you didn't. If you did, you wouldn't have been if that position in the first place. That's the nature of emergencies. We don't get to know when they're going to hit us. I've had very, very few flat tires. I still carry a spare and a jack in my vehicle.

Emergency equipment.

[PavePusher]

35. Because emergencies only occur at home and after careful scheduling.

Or something....

[AtheistCrusader]

82. Fuck, if my next emergency would be kind enough to schedule an appointment, I'd stop

carrying this uncomfortable hunk of metal around.

[Starboard Tack]

84. Did it help during your last emergency?

I can't imagine an emergency where a gun would help me better than my head, but if all you have is a gun, then your choices are limited.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. I miss the part where HAVING one tool with me to deal with certain types of problems

precludes using other tools to deal with problems that do not require one specific tool.

[Starboard Tack]

87. I guess the answer is a resounding "No!" Thought as much.

I have a suggestion for you. Add up all the emergencies you've had over the past 20-30 years, then list the tools needed to deal with those and see how many you can comfortably carry.

[ileus]

23. PPE

Personal protective equipment?


I like personal safety device myself...PSD.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

31. PSD

I believe that TLA has already been appropriated by the (p)ersonal (s)ecurity (d)etail. I was thinking about (c)ounter (a)ssault (w)eapon but if the VPC, in their infinite wisdom, decide that because of the name, it requires a bayonet...

Is it just me; would a Glock 23 look odd with a bayonet?

[Oneka]

48. maybe!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

60. look out plaxico!

[Starboard Tack]

88. I love the euphemisms you guys use. It's OK to call it a gun, or is it too embarrassing?

Must admit, I'd feel really, really, REALLY fucking stupid carrying one in public.

[4th law of robotics]

21. Someone has come up with a plan to end violence between humans

http://www.vhemt.org/

It's a bit extreme. But it's the only one that will work.

[HALO141]

28. Funny

Almost had me going for a minute.

[ileus]

30. crap I'm 8 and 10 years too late.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

32. I was going to...

...ask that guy Berkowitz's dog for a plan but then I woke up. You should wake up, too.

[aikoaiko]

53. Since Aurora: Press Secretary Carney said no new federal gun laws coming.

So we'll have to reduce gun violence through more practical means.