Could a licensed concealed gun carrier stop a tragedy?

[SecularMotion]

In the wake of mass shootings in Colorado and Wisconsin, a fusillade of a different sort erupted when gun-rights advocates suggested a good Samaritan with a concealed weapon might have saved the day.

In a July radio interview after gunman James Holmes opened fire in a crowded Aurora, Colo., theater, killing 12 and wounding 58, Rep. Louie Gohmert, R-Texas, wondered whether an armed movie patron "could have stopped this guy more quickly.''

In a subsequent interview, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a staunch gun-control advocate, called Gohmert's view "nonsensical.''

This rather typical exchange is a measure of how far the gun debate has come since the days when it centered on the simple premise that firearms ownership is a Second Amendment right.

http://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/article/Could-a-licensed-concealed-gun-carrier-stop-a-3810053.php#ixzz24Y06Yii3

[Union Scribe]

1. Bloomberg, opening his repuke hole again. Who cares. nt

[Confusious]

2. Gohmert.. Idiot

A conceled carry hasn't stopped one yet...

I don't see it happening in the future.

[shadowrider]

5. Wrong n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

7. It has already happened several times.

Here are three instances:

Golden Food Market Shooting 2009
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2009/jul/12/shot121_20090711-230802-ar-37595/

New Life Church Shooting 2007
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/1638879

Winnemuccca, NV bar shooting, 2008
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/19251374.html


There have also been some others.

[Buzz Clik]

29. Your point is well taken because of the context. However...

There are plenty of instances where the presence of guns and returned gunfire did not avert the tragedy.

The recent shooting of a cop and several others in College Station, TX, is an example. A cop was approaching the house to deliver an eviction notice. The tenant knew it was coming and was ready. He threw open the door and shot the cop who, though armed, was carrying only the legal notice in his hands. In the shooting frenzy that the perp unleashed in killing the cop, the driver of a car passing by was shot three times and a man walking his dog was shot. One of them died at the scene. One of the neighbors emptied his weapon at least once while firing at the perp, but that did not prevent others from being wounded, including yet another cop who responded to a 911 call.

The answer to gun violence is not more guns.

[shadowrider]

39. Guns and returned gunfire in a firefight are one thing. An outright ambush is quite another

Those cops were ambushed.

[Buzz Clik]

70. Are not all these tragedies amubshes? n/t

[shadowrider]

73. Some. And with some ambushes, the ARMED victim can shoot back

&feature=related

Bad guy died at the scene. This was an ambush (armed robbery)

[Buzz Clik]

75. Yeah, okay. But not the scenario being requested by the opening post.

Two thumbs for the gutsy shop keeper.

[shadowrider]

76. The scenario is: Can a concealed carrier stop a tragedy

In this case, yes. His own death.

[PavePusher]

95. Your insinuations are:

1. Because someone did not stop one instance it invalidates all successful self-defenses.

and

2. Someone is claiming that armed citizens will be able to stop all violent attacks.


#1 is, of course, a clear logical fallacy, and #2 is not a claim anyone has made.

[Buzz Clik]

96. Ah. Well...

1. Nope. Didn't say that.

2. Nope. Didn't say that, either.

[Reasonable_Argument]

3. CCW

Isn't just about stopping a mass shooting. It's about being able to defend yourself should the worst happen. Could a CCW holder stop an active shooter, maybe. A gun isn't a magic talisman, it's just a tool.

[Hoyt]

14. Do you carry a defibrallator, epipen, O2, etc. You are far more like to need those than a gun if

all you are interested in is self preservation.

[Reasonable_Argument]

66. No because that would be a bit much to carry

I do keep a survival bag in my car and a fully loaded bug out bag in my house however. Better to have and not need than need and not have.

[holdencaufield]

4. Could an unarmed bystander stop a tragedy?

NT

[Hoyt]

15. Yes, in several recent cases old ladies stopped mass shootings.

[Missycim]

30. Wrong that little old lady tackled a

shooter that had a jammed gun.

[Hoyt]

36. Can't stand it can you -- friggin guns did nothing in a state where almost anyone can carry. In fact

Giffords is a gun toter, and it didn't do her a bit of good. If she had been standing there with a gun in her hand, she wouldn't have even had a chance to raise it. Another gun toter couldn't get a shot off either. I suspect there were others in audience, but they slinked away.

Also there was a case in Florida I think were a gun lover showed up at a council meeting. An old lady swung here purse at him.

You guys need to accept reality and leave those guns at home and help us change the perception of those who tote.


There have been several other cases, but why waste time to find them -- you guys and your guns aren't even as effective as frail, spunky elderly ladies. LMAO, and thanks to the brave elderly ladies. I'd kiss them in appreciation for showing you guys up, if I knew where the were.

[Missycim]

38. You know what I can't stand?

People who twist facts (You) to try make an anti-gun point

Hate to break it too but if that gun hadn't jammed she prolly would have been shot, she was very lucky.

You said a gun lover showed up to a meeting? Was he going to shoot anyone? or did this woman just swing because he had a gun? Got a link to that story or are you pulling this out of the orifice where you get most of your "facts"?

[Hoyt]

41. Fact is, she did it. You can't stand it. Gun lover at meeting pulled in on council, old lady saved

day with her purse. Really tough, resourceful people make do without polluting society with their guns and BS.

[shadowrider]

47. Umm, Hoyt? Where is your link?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=49951

Star Member Hoyt (8,745 posts)
15. When you quote something like that, it is customary to give a link to the source.

View profile
Would love to see what right wing gun site you got that from.

[4th law of robotics]

20. Possibly

but guns help.

Notice when you call the cops out to stop such a tragedy they don't show up with warm cookies and milk.

[Hoyt]

43. I think police see lot more situations than you. Heck, if you were policeman, you'd have armor

(probably want double, and full body), taser, shotgun, pistol, knife, another pistol strapped to ankle, radio for backup . . . . . . and would probably stay in your car waiting for backup upon seeing a drunk passed out by road.

[Jenoch]

72. Do you have a point to make with your comment about armor?

I have two brothers who are cops and they where a protective vest every single shift.

[shadowrider]

74. Dude, don't expect a reasonable response. It's his M.O.

If you argue, you're a NRA loving, right wing, teabaggin zimmerman.

Believe me. Been there, done that.

[Bonhomme Richard]

6. I will say that all the wounded by crossfire in NYC.....

is an example of what can happen.
And these, except for one, were professionals.

[rDigital]

23. Those officers were ANYTHING but professionals. Check the NYC thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=64955

[Bonhomme Richard]

65. Even with 4 lb. trigger pull I suspect that there still would have......

been bystanders hit. There were probably quite e few people in the vicinity of the shooter at that hour.
And yes, 12 lb pull on the trigger is ludicrous.

[PavePusher]

97. Surely you can cite to a lawful defensive shooting...

where the lawful shooter hit multiple bystanders. Even just three or four. We'll wait....

P.S. In the meantime, I've posted elsewhere about NYPD's training problems. I'll recopy here:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public_information/RAND_FirearmEvaluation.pdf

http://www.pointshooting.com/1arand.htm

In short, they are not the "professionals" you imply.

[ileus]

8. CC is to help stop personal attacks...

Most CC people haven't went to Magpul schools, much less how to stop an active shooter and not end up dead at the hands of responding officers.


Remember your safety is in your hands, carry the proper safety equipment. Train with it, and use your noodle to stay out of harms way. The rare 1:1,000,000 chance you need to defend yourself be sure you're in the proper state of mind to do so.

At the hospital I carry a little kimber pepper blaster. If there's an active shooter you can catch me on my way out the closest exit. (that's my job when they make the announcement) Unless of course I have to barricade.

Safety first, dying second.

[DanTex]

9. LOL. Louie "terror babies" Gohmert is the perfect spokesman for the gun rights movement.

When I read posts by the trolls and the gun nuts, this is exactly the picture I have in my mind...

[gejohnston]

10. genetic fallacy centeral

When I read posts and the anti gunners, this is exactly the picture I have in my mind...
http://www.stopillegalmayors.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Mom_March#Controversy_and_Liquidation

[DanTex]

11. Is that you Louie? I wonder what username Louie Gohmert uses to post here...

[gejohnston]

12. Barbara?

Did you move to Texas after you got out of jail?

[DanTex]

13. Cherry picking, as usual.

You see, most gun control advocates are ordinary progressives and Democrats, whereas most gun nuts are right-wing teabaggers like Gohmert.

[gejohnston]

22. Cherry picking?

You pick the most extreme example and you accuse me of cherry picking? Most gun nuts are middle of the road of either party and independents.

[geckosfeet]

27. Now THAT's a load of bull droppings.

And if you believe it you must have quite a RW definition of "middle of the road" and "independent".

[gejohnston]

35. personal experience

mouths on TV don't count.

[geckosfeet]

64. The overall membership in the clubs I belong to are RW and support RW organizations (read NRA)

And I live in MA. Club meetings and matches are always 75% older white men angry at welfare mothers and liberals. Minorities are non existent. Women are rare.

All one has to do it hang out at few gun forums for a matter of minutes before you realize which way most of the members lean politically. The most notable exception that I know of is northeastshooters.com. Yes, there are a couple of liberal gun owner sites, but in general they are poorly attended.

Membership requirements to most clubs where I live are NRA or GOAL membership. I choose GOAL. Not because I agree with their political position on a lot of things (they are endorsing Ryan for gods fucking sake) but because they do work for local gun owners. I will never support the NRA in it's current manifestation.

But to try and imply, to suggest in any way that gun owners are in general middle of the road and independent politically is a LOAD OF BULL DROPPINGS.

[gejohnston]

69. The one I go to

is pretty much as I described.

[geckosfeet]

79. And as I mentioned, your definition of middle of the road politically and independent

is at odds with reality as I know it.

[DanTex]

33. Gohmert is not an extreme example. He is a typical gun fanatic, echoing sentiments posted daily...

...by gun nuts and trolls here in the gungeon. I posted an OP one time asking for a single example of a prominent progressive voice who was a supporter of the "gun rights" movement. Nobody was able to come up with one. It's all Gohmert, Palin, Norquist, Nugent, etc.

[gejohnston]

37. actually he is

all of the trolls here are on your side, like Hoyt and bongbong. Look up what internet troll means. I did not say prominent, I said typical. Ranters and pundits on TV and radio don't count as typical.

[DanTex]

40. Gohmert is a typical "gun rights" advocate. Todd Akin ("legitimate rape") is another.

Glenn Beck. Sean Hannity. Joe the Plumber. Etc.

[gejohnston]

49. they are political hacks and circus performers

and I really don't give a rat's ass what these people think, nor should I or anyone else consider what they say when forming an opinion. If they are typical of the ones you know, maybe you need a better circle of acquaintances, or expand your horizons. Beck is a self described "rodeo clown" that says he doesn't give a shit about politics or the process, he just says shit knowing it will make him money. Palin tried to show how outdoorsey she is only to expose what a poser, or Walt, she is. Not only did her daddy load and work the bolt for her, she couldn't hit a caribou in a canned hunt. She also violated at least two of the four rules that the average country person who grows up with guns usually know by the time they are ten.
So, if you are using them as a new twist on appeal to authority, you picked the wrong people. Ratings whores and dim witted politicians who say stupid shit to get their 15 minutes are not the ones to appeal to.

[DanTex]

53. Still waiting for the mythical "pro-gun progressive". But if you find bigfoot, I'll count that too!

Meanwhile, more "gun rights" advocates: Larry "wide stance" Craig, Joe "child support" Walsh, David Vitter, Darrell Issa, Paul Ryan, Allen West, Michelle Bachmann...

Can you think of even one teabagging nutcase who you don't agree 100% with about guns?

[glacierbay]

56. Will Howard Dean do?

How about Harry Reid? Or Bill Richardson?

[DanTex]

57. You mean the Howard Dean who was in favor of the Assault Weapons Ban?

You can't, on the one hand, consider the Assault Weapons Ban to be the work of evil gun-grabbers, and on the other hand, try to claim Howard Dean as a pro-gunner....

[glacierbay]

60. Ok, not Howard Dean

But certainly Harry Reid, who did not vote for the AWB. There's one and that's all you asked for.

[DanTex]

62. Harry Reid voted no on protecting gun companies from gun violence lawsuits.

The true gun fanatics think those lawsuits were just backdoor gun control. Reid only got a B from the NRA, and the NRA endorsed Sharron Angle over him in the last senate election.

But Harry Reid is close enough. So, OK, on your second try, you managed to find one modestly pro-gun Democrat. And on the other hand, pretty much every right wing lunatic you can think of is also a full-on gun nut.

[gejohnston]

68. Trent Lott and Strom Thurmond voted

for the AWB too. So?

[gejohnston]

59. here is two

Thom Hartmann speaks very highly of both of them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Schweitzer

Schweitzer is opposed to gun control[17] and is a vehement critic of the REAL ID legislation.[27]
Schweitzer signed into Law the Montana Firearms Freedom Act on April 15, 2009 which became effective October 1, 2009. The law exempts firearms made and kept in Montana from Federal firearms regulations. It applies mostly to non-military types of firearms, along with ammunition and accessories such as silencers,[28] provided that these items are manufactured in the state, and do not leave the state. In 2011, Schweitzer announced his intention to provide single-payer health care in Montana, based on the Saskatchewan plan.[29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders
The NRA backed him in his first election and deserves better than a C- from the NRA. He does prefer Wyoming's self defense laws over Florida's. I'm guessing you would too. Wyoming's castle doctrine is more specific than Florida's.

Craig is from Idaho, he is going to be pro gun either way, just like Christie and Giuliani being anti gun.

I'm guessing I should put more weight on Vitter's opinion because he is a Rhodes Scholar.

[DanTex]

61. So one of your picks is a red state centrist Dem, and the other gets a C- from the NRA.

Here's some more inspiration for you: James "global warming denier" Inhofe, Jim DeMint, John Cornyn, Rush Limbaugh, Pat Toomey...

[gejohnston]

71. I would hardly call the gov

a centrist. I'm guessing you make guns a litmus test. So even one that is pro environment and pro single payer is still a centrist at best. Or is it because he is from Montana? My litmus test is a lot different. Red state/blue state is simplistic bullshit meant for TV news snippets that make the semi clueless and shallow to feel well informed. I'm guessing you don't have a very good grasp on Wyoming or Montana politics. But then, you don't seem to have as good of a grasp that you think you do on a lot of things.
Economic, environmental, "class warfare", those are the dividing lines, not wedge side shows that are diversions of the real issues.
That happens to put Bloomburg to the right of the Montana gov.

So the best you can do is run another list of circus clowns and pandering nit wits who probably don't believe half the shit they say. Like I said, what these people say or claim to think really doesn't matter.

[Hoyt]

16. Callous fuckers like Gohmert carry guns.

[Hoyt]

44. Are you saying you think like Gomert?

[glacierbay]

50. Answer my question

then I'll answer yours.

[shadowrider]

51. Forget it. Hoyt won't answer the question, "What color is the sky". Just wild accusations

with no basis in fact is all you'll get out of him.

[glacierbay]

54. Par for the course.

Short timer here but I'm already seeing a pattern.
When confronted with facts, throw insults and wild accusations, well, I won't engage in the same behavior, I would rather have an intelligent, content filled debate with facts, not rhetoric.

I'll just not get involved with a person like him/her.

[shadowrider]

58. His posts are good for a daily laugh though

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. Firearms ownership is NOT a Second Amendment right! When will you understand that?

Here's the text (as ratified). PLEASE show me where it confers any rights whatsoever:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Please point out the part where it says anything approaching "the federal government, empowered by the states, hereby grants this right to the people". IT DOESN'T.

The right to own firearms existed BEFORE the Second Amendment was ever drafted.

The willful ignorance of this fact is nothing less than astonishing.

[DanTex]

18. What difference does it make?

I've noticed that the heads of gun fanatics often explode over the whole "pre-existing right" thing, but I don't see why it matters.

[4th law of robotics]

21. Who would have thought that the 2nd amendment of the bill of RIGHTS confers any rights whatsoever

Pure madness.

The other 9 have nothing to do with personal rights either.

[rDigital]

24. Yep, collective right to free speech, not individual. ; ) n/t

[shadowrider]

25. Nope. Everything is individual with the exception of the 2nd. It's collective dontchaknow

[rDigital]

26. Collective rights and punishments are a fascist concept. nt

[4th law of robotics]

31. The first is one of the most misunderstood rights

it confers the right to free speech to an organization (such as a newspaper company) to have free speech assuming they meet government standards for professionalism.

The founders never intended ignorant amateurs to wield this right willy-nilly.

[rDigital]

32. We need to license bloggers and eliminate so-called

"Saturday Night Posters". The internet loophole needs to be closed as well.

[doc03]

28. Most CC people I know would either pee their pants or at best

shoot an incent bystander if they were ever faceing a real threat.

[shadowrider]

42. NY cops shot 9 innocent bystanders recently. Whatcha say about that?

[Hoyt]

45. Like you would have done any better.

[shadowrider]

48. It isn't about me. I never opined on the subject of how I would have done.

Now, what do you think about NY cops shooting 9 innocent bystanders?

[doc03]

77. Well NY cops are supposed to be trained professionals and they shot 9

innocent bystanders. Like I said the average Joe CCW clown would pee his pants or maybe shoot
even more than 9 Innocent bystanders. That just supports my argument.

[Oneka]

80. Average Joe CCW clown ,in action.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2175170/Harrowing-moment-elderly-internet-cafe-goer-guns-robbers-chases-door.html

No innocents harmed, and the only pants peeing going on were the ones who ran out after thier botched up robbery attempt.

[doc03]

84. How doyou know the shooter wasn't an x-cop? How do you know hesaved any lives?

He stopped a robbery, that's all. It could have just as well resulted in a gunfight and several incent people could have been shot.

[gejohnston]

86. In all fairness

according to one of the employees I talked to he is a retired US Marshal. Can't provide the link because, well I happened to stop there to check my email the following week.

[doc03]

87. So he wasn't your usual grumpy old man? Al lot of 71 year olds I know I wouldn't trust

with a water gun. I am 64 and I am speaking from my oun experiance on grumpy old men.

[gejohnston]

89. I know a couple of those too,

and I know some twenty somethings I wouldn't trust with a water gun either. For the most part, the ones I know are quite trustworthy.

[doc03]

85. it doesn't make me feel more secure knowing a bunch

of possibly senile old men are running around with a handgun.

[shadowrider]

88. Here's another, or would prefer the bad guy be allowed to shoot a mother and her baby?

[doc03]

90. From what I could make out the only onethat come close to shooting

the woman and thebaby was the CCW shooter.

[shadowrider]

91. Move the goalposts. Had there not been a CCW holder, would you have preferred the bad

guy shoot the mom and baby since there would have been no way to defend themselves?

[Hoyt]

46. We seem to have the same experience with gun carriers.

[doc03]

78. Most I know need a gun or a big ass 4x4 diesel pickup truck to prove their manhood. I have a CCW

myself and carried maybe twice in 3 years, I think it is ridiculous to carry a gun, in my opionion all
you do is invite trouble.

[Hoyt]

82. Yep.

[PavePusher]

99. Why are nay-sayers like yourself so often obsessed with others' "manhood"?

Get your head out of my pants and stop being a perv.

I also wonder how your perspective applies to female carriers. Are they all suffering from penis-envy?

[rDigital]

81. How are you qualified to assess their shooting ability? Are you a firearms instructor? nt

[Hoyt]

83. There are a bunch of so-called firearms instructors that aren't worth a darn.

[rDigital]

93. I am an instructor, and the question was for Doc. Don't make me post more cat pictures! : ) nt

[PavePusher]

98. Ooooo, an unsupported claim on the Innerwebz!!! We has been truthified!!

Sacred knowledge has been bestowed upon us by our betters!! We abase ourselves before your munificense!!!1!!1!

[rl6214]

34. Glad to see you finally linking to articles that show CCW are beneficial to and help protect society

I've always known you believe this in spite of never posting any comments. Keep up the good work

[peacebird]

52. The police are trained, yet they shot 9 innocent bystanders while trying to hit one gunman....

You think average Joe would do better in a panic situation like Aurora?

[Shadowflash]

55. They all think they're Clint Eastwood.

Of course they would never miss!

Geez.

[spin]

63. It all depends on the person. ...

Many of those who carry a legally concealed firearm on a regular basis are very interested in the shooting sports. They practice once or more a month at the range. Police officers often have little interest in shooting and qualify at the range on a yearly or bi-yearly schedule.

However many people who have carry permits rarely practice and many of those only carry a firearm when they feel they are going into a bad area.

Some police officers do actually enjoy shooting and often practice and are therefore far better than the average cop at using their handgun.

Police officers are more used to being in a stressful situation than the average citizen. This can give them an significant advantage. However many people who carry on a regular basis are ex-military or have served as a LEO.

Police offers might have to shoot at a longer range that would be required for a self defense incident involving a citizen.

Of course much depends on the individual. I was once talking to an man who was a retired police officer and the range master of a range I shot at.

I asked him if a cop who is an excellent target shooter has an advantage over one who is a mediocre shooter.

He replied, "I know of one cop who was also a competitive shooter. He had an incident in which he had to use his weapon and only managed to hit a mail box and a door. But one officer who always had a hard time qualifying on the range found himself facing an individual who had a knife out to a woman's throat and was about to kill her. He shot the guy in the head with one shot and saved the woman's life."

[GreenStormCloud]

67. There was a recent thread in which a legal gun owner helped a cop.

The gun owner, age 67, shot the bad guy with a .357 handgun, hitting him 5 for 5 at 165 yards. The cop credited him with saving his life. The bad guy had just killed two people.

[Buzz Clik]

92. Collateral damage, even when those returning fire are complete experts and highly trained

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html

[shadowrider]

94. Don't forget, according to many here, only the police should have guns cause

they're trained, and stuff.