Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumno murders in 2012, what did they do right that Chicago did not?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/02/aurora-homicide-free-illi_n_2396554.htmlhttp://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/suburbs/aurora/ct-met-aurora-no-homicides-20130102,0,7451538.story
"We changed our tactics up and have been successful," he said.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/17317331-418/for-the-first-time-in-six-decades-aurora-ends-year-with-no-murders.html
Kudos to Aurora PD, ATF, and FBI.
loknar
(33 posts)If this catches on, the streets might actually become safe.
rbixby
(1,140 posts)Just sayin
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)it isn't Mayberry either. Chicago has about 2.5 million more. The point is Aurora is dealing with the problem head on instead of feel good duct tape. Chicago's city government is too inept and corrupt.
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/January-2012/Gangs-and-Politicians-An-Unholy-Alliance/
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)gejohnston: Kudos to Aurora PD, ATF, and FBI.
concur, johnston, tho I at first thought you were bashing chicago for it's guncontrol laws using aurora as a pretext (& I haven't completely dismissed that idea).
.. just out past couple hours tho, the efficacy of 'stand your ground' laws, like in florida zimmerman case:
jan 3, 2013: (Newser) Whatever the merits of "Stand Your Ground" laws, they appear to increase homicides by at least 7%, reports NPR. It cites a Texas A&M study of the 23 states that have enacted "Stand Your Ground" laws since 2005. Researchers looked at the homicide rate in those states pre- and post-law, as well as the rates of non-Stand Your Ground states. It determined between 500 and 700 additional homicides take place annually as a result. "These laws lower the cost of using lethal force," says Mark Hoekstra, the economist behind the study. "Our study finds that, as a result, you get more of it. Homicides go up by 7% to 9% in states that pass the laws."
What the study didn't find was "evidence of any [crime] deterrence effect over that same time period." Hoekstra says his results don't necessarily prove that the law is a failure. "It could be that these are self-defense killings," he says.
"On the other hand, the increase could be driven by an escalation of violence by criminals. Or it could be an escalation of violence in otherwise nonviolent situations."
http://www.newser.com/story/160290/homicides-up-7-in-stand-your-ground-states.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_3_2
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)"It could be that these are self-defense killings,"
Homicide does not equal murder and here is a link to explain the legal difference:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)However, as they are inconvenient they will either be ridiculed or ignored...
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)at least to the best of my knowledge anyway, Illinois folks may disagree. The only thing that makes Chicago unique is their handgun ban. Since gangsters don't get FOIDs, and most of their problems are gang related, gun laws are irrelevant. There was a "pot shot" at Chicago there, but not their gun ban per se. As I mentioned in another post, it is the incompetence and corruption. City officials protecting gangs, and getting favors from them, while doing for the citizens. Every former resident of Chicago I run into in Florida, liberal and conservative alike, bitch about Daley privatizing the parking meters.
I read that study. The economists couldn't tell the difference between Castle Doctrine from SYG, getting some of the states wrong.
BTW, self defense homicides by police increased. Not all homicides are murder. You also have to balance that justifiable homicide, which is not a crime, vs the violent crime prevented. There was a case in Del Ray Beach, FL, where a guy robbed a deli. The owner emptied the register and gave it to him. Had he just taken the money and ran, no shots would have been fired. He decided to take a toddler as hostage, that is what prompted the owner to shoot him.
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)the oftentimes Lurker: Did you even bother to read what you posted? "It could be that these are self-defense killings"
Yes, I, DID read what I posted! And thanks to you, I've reread what I posted several times over, but I still don't get any point you're trying to make.
what I posted: jan 3, 2013: (Newser) .."Stand Your Ground" laws, they appear to increase homicides by at least 7%, reports NPR. It cites a Texas A&M study of the 23 states that have enacted "Stand Your Ground" laws since 2005. .. It determined between 500 and 700 additional homicides take place annually as a result.
"These {SYG} laws lower the cost of using lethal force .. Our study finds that, as a result, you get more of it {Lethal Force}. Homicides go up by 7% to 9% in states that pass the laws." What the study didn't find was "evidence of any deterrence effect over that same time period."
Hoekstra says his results don't necessarily prove that the law is a failure. "It could be that these are self-defense killings," <<<<< Lurkers Bone of Contention!
"On the other hand, the increase could be driven by an escalation of violence by criminals. Or it could be an escalation of violence in otherwise nonviolent situations."
http://www.newser.com/story/160290/homicides-up-7-in-stand-your-ground-states.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_3_2
So pls explain your point, since what he means is that 'some' murders COULD be bona fide self defense, OR, bona fide escalations of violence induced by stand your ground laws.
Did you really think there would be 500 to 700 MORE justifiable homicides yearly, in those syg states? than the couple dozen they usually get? (far less in smaller states)
And thanks for the link to explain diff between homicide & murder, I sometimes use them synonymously for sure, but it really is beside the point.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)without going through case files of each one afterward, and trial transcripts of those before the law was passed, there is no way of knowing what is what. For all we know, there are 500-700 innocent people sitting in prison because of the previous laws.
jimmy the one
(2,708 posts)johnston: The only thing that makes Chicago unique is their handgun ban. Since gangsters don't get FOIDs, and most of their problems are gang related, gun laws are irrelevant. There was a "pot shot" at Chicago there, but not their gun ban per se.
Shouldn't you be speaking in the past tense, johnston? gun ban is unconstitutional as of 2010 mcdonald, and handguns can be legal in chicago now. Imagine that as well, murder goes up after handgun ban is lifted.
But chicago & DC are not the only ones to ban handguns, Morton Grove did too (tho a suburb of chicago, is it considered 'chicago' anyone know?)... anyway, lets compare how morton grove does with it's erstwhile handgun ban compared to kennesaw georgia where by law each household is required to possess a firearm. (Note 2010 stats would be ~pre-mcdonald)
2010--CrimeRateIndex -Kennesaw - US - MortonGrove
Total Crime Risk .............. 56 ... 100 ..... 35
Murder Risk.................... 27 ... 100 ..... 15
Rape Risk........................ 46 ... 100 ..... 42
Robbery Risk................... 38 ... 100 ..... 15
Assault Risk................... 16 ... 100 ..... 47
Burglary Risk.................. 54 ... 100 ..... 41
Larceny Risk.................... 64 ... 100 ..... 83
Auto Theft Risk................ 67 ... 100 ..... 33
http://www.clrsearch.com/Morton-Grove-Demographics/IL/Crime-Rate
http://www.clrsearch.com/Kennesaw-Demographics/Ga/Crime-Rate
Crime Risk Index (100 = National Average): Index score for an area is compared to the national average of 100. A score of 200 indicates twice the national average total crime risk, while 50 indicates half the national risk.
Dang, 6 of 8 for DA GROVE exceptin' larceny & assault. TOTAL crime risk Kennesaw 56, MG 35, the winner & still champ --- DA GROVE.
Am I cherry picking one bad year for kennesaw? nah, been about the same for past 15 yrs I been followin' it, DA grove's had about 30% lower crime rates than kennesaw on avg, & lower but about parity in property crime in one of kennesaws zip codes, & ~20% lower property crime rates than the other kennesaw zip.
2003 FBI stats deflates the myth of 'more guns less crime':
2003 Murder: Morton Grove 2 - Kennnesaw 1
2003 Robbery: Morton Grove 4 - Kennesaw 7
2003 Aggravated Assault: Morton Grove 12 - Kennesaw 15
2003 Larceny And Theft: Morton Grove 390 - Kennesaw 455
2003 Burglary; Morton Grove 70 - Kennesaw 89
Both cities have similiar populaions with 22.966 residents of Morton Grove and 25,183 in Kennesaw.
Morton Grove is also a suburb of Chicago, gets spillover crime. Kennesaw is more rural.
MORE GUNS, MORE LIES