My thoughts on Gun Control…

[Tanta]

My head hurts. I keep running into discussions on my facebook and its getting frustrating so I want to get DU's opinion on my arguments...

My arguments are these...why are we so afraid of other people?

Why in our day in age do we have to arm ourselves to the teeth (concealed fire arms, guns in schools, guns in churches, guns in bars, guns in movie theaters)?

Why in this day in age do you need AR-15's to "protect" yourself?

Why do you need a drum magazine able to hold 100 cartridges that you can get from stores and on the Internet?

Why in this day and age do I feel that if you have a gun you live more in fear than I do...someone who does not have a gun at all?

Why is it that I feel like this entire discussion about gun control is something that is actually GOOD for our country because people are actually talking about it and people are of course...dying?
What the hell?
I am absolutely astonished. I have said it time and time again.

#1. There are responsible gun owners out there this no question. I know many of my friends are responsible as well. I am not saying to take his guns away at all, but what I am saying is there needs to be more of a accountability of them and make it so that people are protecting themselves smartly and do it the correct ways.

#2. It’s not banning guns I am in favor of, I am in favor of making it a HELL OF A LOT MORE HARDER to get them.

#3. To my opponents...So...what would I do to help gun control and reduce the deaths of those who are dying?

Here is a check list in how to accomplish that:

#1. I would increase the cost of bullets.

#2. I would have a strenuous background check and a LONG AS HELL waiting period. If you REALLY want to shoot something you can wait.

#3. Provide more insight into modifications to weapons and find out what the society should have and determine what is best to make it so we can reduce deaths.

#4. Increase training in gun violence across the board. From little children to high schoolers, to college students as well as suicide awareness and implement more psychology into classrooms making it not as an elective, but more of a thing so kids can help recognize potential warning signs for those who might want to shoot something up.

#5. This one is something that was talked about in an earlier thread: Parenting. Parents need to be able to know to LOCK UP their damn guns and ammo. To know that a GUN HAS ONE PURPOSE: TO KILL. It’s not something that you "point" at your friends with or show off because its "cool". It’s a weapon.

#6. Make it so when you buy it online it has to be even HARDER than it is to buy it face to face. This was what led to many recent tragedies and at the same time...part of the problem recently is media coverage. That is why instances like this one mentioned is simply a copycat but on a way lower scale.

Let’s face facts here: People are dying.
There is no way around that. So how do we make it so people can stop dying...add more guns to the streets?
Are you insane? That is like adding more gas to a fire.

No, what we need is more of a mixed approach and arming teachers which was mentioned by the NRA is not the answer. We do need more of a presence at schools yes, but it should be in the form of thinking we are a 1st world country...not the Wild West. There is my argument, yes; it is a long wall of text without any links. Enjoy.

Jon Tanta

[Travis_0004]

1. I'll respond to a few points

1. What does increasing the cost of bullet accomplish? I guess we could make shooting guns as a hobby to expensive for poor people. That way only the rich can afford guns.

5. I agree with you. People need to be more responsible.

6. What is the problem with buying ammo online? I have bought ammo online, and it is more difficult. I had to submit a copy of my drivers license to prove I'm 18/21. This is not a requirement for face to face sales assuming you look old enough.

The reason I'm against gun control is becuase it generally does not work. What makes you think criminals are going to comply with gun control laws? How well does gun control work in Mexico? How well does drug control work in America?

[upaloopa]

3. It is not the criminals we have to worry about.

It people like the shooter in CT and his mother that are a danger. I don't know of a criminal shooting 20 kids in school but I do know of a law abiding gun owner and her son she enabled killing 20 kids.

[shadowrider]

5. He was mentally ill

and no one did anything about it.

Mention screening mentally ill people on DU before they have a chance to get a gun and the screaming will hurt your ears.

[upaloopa]

10. Well gee we are going to do better at mental

health soon I guess. Don't hold you breath. Gun laws make more guns available to mentally ill. Don't pass the buck

[shadowrider]

13. The last couple of mass shooters

were mentally ill.

But don't think of screening them, go after guns.

Mental health screening would go a long way towards slowing mass shootings.

My opinion, yours may differ.

[upaloopa]

16. He got the guns from his mother! You can't screen the

shooter because he didn't try to buy the guns!
Yes go after the guns and improve mental illness services. Twofer

[shadowrider]

19. He did try to buy the guns

he didn't pass the NICS check because he was under 21.

The system worked.

[upaloopa]

23. Tell that to the parents

Your kid's dead but the system worked.
Suppose there were no guns in his mom's house? The problem was the easy access to guns.

[Ashgrey77]

27. He stole them from her and then murdered her. But you knew that right?

You make it sound like she gave them to him, smiled, and then told him to go kill those poor children. Stay classy.

[upaloopa]

2. I would add that we find a way of slowing

the increase in gun ownership. I really believe that most people are like me in that they don't want to live in a country where there is a 50/50 chance the person on your right or left is carrying a loaded gun. I don't worry about hunters or target shooters or gun collectors.
I like you worry that a false sense of danger is leading us to be an armed camp.
It is true that the presence of a gun in heated situations often leads to unnecessary gun violence. We are not safer by having more guns in our presence.

[jody]

6. Guns v Murder “Gun Control Legislation” by CRS (Nov 14, 2012) reports the following.

- From 1994 to 2011, firearm number increased from 192 million to 310+ million.

- From 1994 to 2011, firearms-related murder rates decreased from 6.6 to 3.2 per 100,000.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf

[upaloopa]

8. Geez

Just quit with the bull shit talking points. You can write facts in any way you want to prove a point.
20 children were murdered tell the parents we are better off now

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Sorry, I don't do 'faith based' argumentation.

The numbers are real.

If you want to respond with something meaningful, perhaps you could ask that poster what the INJURED rate did, as medical science has saved a lot more people who have been shot, given recent advances in trauma care.

Just because the murder rate went down, doesn't mean people are getting shot less.

[jody]

20. Exactly. nt

[jody]

18. Point is clear, people who commit mass murder need help with mental-health before they commit

horrific crimes.

Anyone who believes guns create crime are touting a red herring as a solution to prevent another mass murder.

The issue is clearly mental-health and at this point mental-health experts are essentially clueless on what mental-health problems a mass-murderer might have or what triggers them to commit mass-murder.

IMO anyone who joins the braying brigade chanting "guns create murder especially mass-murder" will be as culpable as the hated NRA when another mass-murder occurs.

[Berserker]

24. Jody

Was stating that firearms increased and violence decreased by 50%. Why don't you go tell them that you blame all that on and inanimate object like a fool and not for other reasons. That's like blaming rape on condoms and not the rapist.

[shadowrider]

7. Your choice and I respect that.

My situation is, I refuse to go into any business that has a "No guns" sign. I much prefer to be around conceal carriers. Been doing it all my life and I've made it to 60.

I want some protection should a bad guy with a gun come in. I don't want to go out with the last thing on my mind being, "Does anyone here have a gun"?

My opinion. Yours is different. No harm no foul.

[upaloopa]

12. They don't need your business they would be

full up with people like me.

[gejohnston]

4. I'll try

My arguments are these...why are we so afraid of other people?

I don't know if we are, but that is an explanation that would be too long for here.

Why in our day in age do we have to arm ourselves to the teeth (concealed fire arms, guns in schools, guns in churches, guns in bars, guns in movie theaters)?

The realization that improbable doesn't equal impossible. While being in the wrong place, wrong time is improbable, it is always possible. Most people don't realize that until the rare and unthinkable happens, then CCW applications increase when that happens.

Why in this day in age do you need AR-15's to "protect" yourself?

they are the modern target rifle, tactical to practical if you will. There are modern hunting rifles based on the action. The AR-15 is today what the Springfield was 100 years ago.

Why do you need a drum magazine able to hold 100 cartridges that you can get from stores and on the Internet?

to part mall ninjas from their money. I don't know any serious gun people who have them.

Why in this day and age do I feel that if you have a gun you live more in fear than I do...someone who does not have a gun at all?

because that is what your culture taught you. Mine taught me that guns are there, to be respected and used properly.

Why is it that I feel like this entire discussion about gun control is something that is actually GOOD for our country because people are actually talking about it and people are of course...dying?
What the hell?
I am absolutely astonished. I have said it time and time again.

Out of the countries that have higher murder rates than the US, they all have stricter gun laws.

[upaloopa]

14. Spin

We have more guns and more gun violence than most countries.
Fear is the driver behind gun sales. The NRA uses fear in everything they promote.

[gejohnston]

17. I said murder rates

I said nothing about gun violence. You were spinning. So does Brady Campaign.

[Clames]

9. Well...

Why in this day and age do I feel that if you have a gun you live more in fear than I do...someone who does not have a gun at all?

No idea. Irrational thoughts are very difficult to explain.

#1. I would increase the cost of bullets.

Which would accomplish what? You probably haven't paid much attention but ammo prices have increased considerably. Doesn't do anything to affect crime though.

#2. I would have a strenuous background check and a LONG AS HELL waiting period. If you REALLY want to shoot something you can wait.

You've probably never even looked at a 4473 and waiting periods do nothing.

#3. Provide more insight into modifications to weapons and find out what the society should have and determine what is best to make it so we can reduce deaths.

What modifications do you think are going on? Society should have? Pretty sure society already makes that determination without regards to the laws. See: marijuana.

#4. Increase training in gun violence across the board. From little children to high schoolers, to college students as well as suicide awareness and implement more psychology into classrooms making it not as an elective, but more of a thing so kids can help recognize potential warning signs for those who might want to shoot something up.

Good points. Many here advocate for more classroom education on firearms.

#5. This one is something that was talked about in an earlier thread: Parenting. Parents need to be able to know to LOCK UP their damn guns and ammo.

Parenting is at the root of most issues. Can't mandate good parenting though.

To know that a GUN HAS ONE PURPOSE: TO KILL. It’s not something that you "point" at your friends with or show off because its "cool". It’s a weapon.

My guns have killed nothing. Ever. The rest gets back to education and parenting.

#6. Make it so when you buy it online it has to be even HARDER than it is to buy it face to face. This was what led to many recent tragedies and at the same time...part of the problem recently is media coverage. That is why instances like this one mentioned is simply a copycat but on a way lower scale.

Do you even know what is required to buy a firearm online? A background check and a FFL transfer unless it's a C&R. So yes, it is harder to buy online rather than going straight to the dealer because you have to arrange for the receiving FFL to provide their credentials to the seller.

No, what we need is more of a mixed approach and arming teachers which was mentioned by the NRA is not the answer. We do need more of a presence at schools yes, but it should be in the form of thinking we are a 1st world country...not the Wild West.

AWB's and banning online ammo purchases aren't the answer either. The Wild West you have in mind only exists in Hollywood.

[Tanta]

11. Thanks everyone

I appreciate so much extra insight into this. All of you rock regardless of where you are on this issue.

[HockeyMom]

21. Guns as "gifts" make me furious

As in the person buying the gift goes through the background check, but the recipient of the gift (not sale) doesn't have to. Honor system for the gun purchaser?

Guns should NEVER be a gift.

[gejohnston]

22. parent to minor child, to be used under supervision

is OK. Beyond that, I'm ambivalent for different reasons. It would also depend on the gun.

[Eleanors38]

28. Does that the new shotgun my Dad presented me 51 yrs. ago?

[HockeyMom]

29. To you and the previous responder only two words

Nancy Lanza.

[gejohnston]

30. what part of

stolen after murder don't you get?

[HockeyMom]

33. Stolen BEFORE

her OWN murder. Killed with her own weapons. Family member getting a legal gun owner's guns.

[PavePusher]

32. Who did not, as far as I can tell, buy any guns for her son.

So, irrelevent, much?

[PavePusher]

31. And no-one should ever buy a car for someone else either. Right? n/t

[HockeyMom]

34. Can they DRIVE that car

without their OWN Driver's License?

[gejohnston]

35. if it stays off public

roads, or they hire a chauffeur.

[PavePusher]

36. People do so all the damn time.

I've been hit by two of them.

[iiibbb]

25. Response

#1. I would increase the cost of bullets.

Unless you're talking about making ammunition prohibitively expensive, I don't think that's going to do anything except make average people pay more for bullets. It is not going to be a deterrent to someone out to cause mayhem


#2. I would have a strenuous background check and a LONG AS HELL waiting period. If you REALLY want to shoot something you can wait.

I agree with this. I think it is reasonable to increase the scrutiny of background checks. My personal feeling is to have first time purchasers go through the same level of scrutiny that a CCW permit holder might have to go through, which might be good for 5 years. Subsequent purchases would just go through the current level of scrutiny.

I am also not opposed to purchase limits. Some argue that if you qualify for 1 handgun, why not more. My response is that it need not be 1 per month. It could be 2 or 3; but I do see such limits as a means to dissuade straw purchases. It could also simply mean that to purchase more than 1 or 2 you simply apply for a variance for the purchase of more. Most of this would be shall issue, so it shouldn't inconvenience anyone in particular.


#3. Provide more insight into modifications to weapons and find out what the society should have and determine what is best to make it so we can reduce deaths.

This is a complicated issue. There are so many weapons out there. Most of the technology in guns is fairly old (essentially 100 year old designs from a functional standpoint) and are ultimately fairly simple mechanical devices. The only thing I see limiting is magazine capacity, but I think that would have such a marginal impact in crises that I don't see the point of it.


#4. Increase training in gun violence across the board. From little children to high schoolers, to college students as well as suicide awareness and implement more psychology into classrooms making it not as an elective, but more of a thing so kids can help recognize potential warning signs for those who might want to shoot something up.

I think people should be trained about the laws in their state. Everyone should be educated about what the legal issues are surrounding the use and possession of handguns. I don't think proficiency tests are fair-- although I would go for proficiency for safe handling would be testable.


#5. This one is something that was talked about in an earlier thread: Parenting. Parents need to be able to know to LOCK UP their damn guns and ammo. To know that a GUN HAS ONE PURPOSE: TO KILL. It’s not something that you "point" at your friends with or show off because its "cool". It’s a weapon.

You can't legislate or teach common sense. There are a myriad of things in the home that can kill a child. I was just reading about a child that suffocated to death because (s)he tried to climb their dresser in the middle of the night and it fell on them. My wife brought it up. It is a pretty simple thing to strap furniture to the walls so it can't fall over if a kid tries to climb it. But that doesn't mean there is a reasonable way to police or regulate hazards in the home -- including guns.


#6. Make it so when you buy it online it has to be even HARDER than it is to buy it face to face. This was what led to many recent tragedies and at the same time...part of the problem recently is media coverage. That is why instances like this one mentioned is simply a copycat but on a way lower scale.

Buy what online? Guns? You can't just buy a gun online and certainly not across state lines. I'm not sure you can stop private party sales without a registration program--- given the treatment of gun owners in New York (using FOI to publish names and addresses in an online database) I can't really sand by a registration program because I think that flies in the face of peoples' privacy; people who followed the rules, registered with the state, and don't deserve to be called out for following the rules. If you mean ammunition... I suppose that is an issue. I've bought ammunition online on occasion because my local store was out, too expensive, or never carried certain specialty rounds (hunting in my case). I buy most of my ammo at gun shows -- that is the cheapest by far.


People are dying, and have died. But one must be pragmatic and honest about root causes. One must recognize that guns are used for legitimate defense. One must recognize that what might make sense in one region doesn't make senses in other regions.

I don't agree that more guns is the answer, but I think the violence in the street is driven more by economics and the war on drugs than it is the quantity of guns in private hands.

I agree with you that arming teachers is not the answer to anything; they didn't sign up for that and carrying a gun for defense requires a certain mentality that not everyone possess.

Florida has had CCW the longest. It has not degenerated into the wild west. People that carry guns for defense and vet themselves with the state are highly unlikely to break the law (if only because they are concerned about losing their rights because the do something wrong).

My own reasons for having a permit might surprise you. In my state, the laws governing how you may be in possession of a weapon can vary from municipality to municipality. So what is legal in one town might not be legal the next town over if they are anti-gun. It has happened with disconcerting frequency that police officers who didn't know the law have mistreated law-abiding people. However, the CCW permits in my state superseded the laws of municipalities. So if you had a permit you didn't have to worry about a subjective interpretation of a law by a police officer. I got the permit even though I rarely had a weapon on me. I don't need the hassle.

[gejohnston]

26. one correction,

Washington State has had "shall issue" since 1965 and Vermont has been "constitutional carry" since the founding.