Let the drawdown begin--acting like jerks at the commissary!!

[MADem]

Boy in 'workout gear' refused admission to commissary

A Navy wife is still puzzling over why she and her 7-year-old son were turned away from the commissary at Kaneohe Bay, Hawaii, because he was allegedly wearing “workout gear.”

A Marine posted outside the Marine Corps Base Hawaii Kaneohe Bay commissary recently told Laura Carothers no one wearing workout gear was allowed entry. “I said, ‘Even on a 7-year-old?’ ” said Carothers. “She said, ‘Yes, all ages.’ ”....The dress code policy at Kaneohe Bay applies to the entire installation, and pictures outlining what is acceptable and not acceptable are posted in front of the commissary, exchange, Marine Mart, food court and other retail locations.

The base order prohibits excessively tight or baggy clothing, obscene images or words on clothing, ripped, torn or frayed clothing, midriffs, exposed underarms, cutoff shorts and swimwear in areas other than the beach or pool, Marshall said.

“These are simple, reasonable rules to ensure all armed forces personnel, DoD civilians, employees and all guests are appropriately dressed while on a professional military installation,” she said.

The incident has clearly made an impression on Zach, his mother said. On occasion when they’ve headed to the commissary for groceries, she said Zach has told her: “ ‘I’m not dressed right, Mommy. I can’t go.’ ”....

[giftedgirl77]

1. Something tells me that Marine was young & didn't

know what he was doing...

[MADem]

2. Here's my view--when they start farting around and telling people they can't wear

"workout gear" (this would include sweats, for example) at the exchange or commissary, they're just screwing with people. They are making the environment unpleasant, so people will get irritated and think about taking the TERA or the lump sum severance.

Last time I was in a commissary (which was just last month) most of the people in "workout gear" were retirees and their spouses. Those people don't particularly care to dress up like they're going to a dance to go grocery shopping. It's just ... stupid!

[giftedgirl77]

3. Most of the policies that have been put in place involve

the troops & their actual PT gear. In fact most places actually state no PT gear allowed. I wish someone would say something to my 7 year old about his clothes, I would be writing a lovely letter to the CG. Nobody in their right mind is going to mess with a retiree in sweatpants.

[Leme]

4. one never knows

Maybe the Marine was told he would get demerits (or whatever happens now) if even one person was seen by his superior in the facility wearing inappropriate clothing,
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This is Hawaii...maybe some jogging groups earlier had stopped at the commissary and were perspiring not and handled some of the produce.
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When the task is zero tolerance, at times that is what occurs.

[MADem]

7. I've seen dress codes which prohibit civilians and dependents from running around

with rude, sexist, drug-referenced tee shirts, or overly "nude-ish" clothing with too many cut-outs or what-have-you, and maybe raggy clothes with too many holes, tears, dirt, and stuff like that, but I've never seen an injunction against "work out gear." That sort of discourages the whole "exercise" meme that the military is so eager to push.

It seems bogus and stupid to me, and I have a lot of experience with installation protocols, going back a half century when things were far more formal than they are today. I think the CO had better get correct, because he or she is sounding like a noxious martinet--and that is never a good look!

[Dr Hobbitstein]

5. Oh noes!!!11!one

A military base has rules and regulations that apply to EVERYONE on the base. The hugh manatee!!!

[MADem]

6. It's asinine. Most people wouldn't accept a dress code to go to their local grocery store.

I can understand "No shoes, no shirt, no service" but take a look at the photo accompanying the article.

This is screwing with people, pure and simple. It is a "huge manatee."

It's a force-shaping tactic and an unnecessary one.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

8. A military base is NOT a local grocery store...

Any installment on said base is subject to rules and regulations. Just like the military.

[MADem]

9. You plainly have not spent a lot of time on military installations.

They aren't just bases, they are neighborhoods. They have houses, schools, barracks (now called "dorms" in some services), movie theaters, libraries, commissaries, exchanges.

HUMANS reside in them.

And we do have an "All Volunteer Force" these days. You don't treat people like shit, like morons, like stupid people who have to follow stupid and senseless rules, otherwise you won't have any "volunteers"left to bully with moronic, senseless "rules" anymore.

I've run a couple of installations, I know how this shit works. This CO is over the line. Either his/her directives got mangled, or he/she is a martinet.

I can guarantee you -- particularly since this story made it to the Military TIMES franchise--that this rule will be rescinded soon...if it hasn't been already.

[Leme]

10. the rule may be stupid, but

the first poster here seemed to blame the Marine...who has his orders.
-
blame the CO, not the Marine, as you now state
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you did not acknowledge that in your earlier post, why?

[MADem]

11. The CO, through a spokesperson, is "insinuating" that the Marine exceeded his or her charge.

But someone "checking up" who was posted in front of the commissary/exchange to do just that apparently also let a ton of people in the store in sweat pants, per the Navy wife with the little boy who was stopped.

Also, the "rules" don't apply to little kids. This idiot who stopped the woman was jerking her chain because her tiny little boy had on a pair of shorts the Marine viewed as "workout gear." It was a dumb-ass stop.

The rules ARE set by the installation commanders. Not the Commissary. Not some Marine patrolling the parking lot for people in bathing suits.

If you go back to the first post, click on the link, and read the entire article you will see.

All of this material is in the news report.

It will help bring clarity to the conversation.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

13. Actually, as a veteran of the USAF

I've spent PLENTY of time on a base. There are still rules and regulations. Most of the neighborhoods, although considered military housing, are OFF base. The Commissary and PX are on base, however, and are subject to rules.

[MADem]

14. Well, you're quite wrong about that--there are tons of installations that still have

housing ON base. I've been to three of them very recently. You don't get TO the housing without going through a gate and showing an ID to either a military or civilian employee/contractor of the Department of Defense.

And military barracks are ALWAYS on base.

You're confusing off-base military "contracted" housing (a relatively new--in the last 25 years or so--idea that actually originated overseas, at facilities where land was limited and it was tough to find room to build more housing) where a local builder constructs housing and leases it, lock/stock/barrel, to the military for a set period of time, and the military fills it with personnel, with on base "military family housing" which is the paradigm and another thing altogether. This idea was imported to manage force/installation fluctuations in CONUS in select areas. It did not supplant on-base housing, it supplemented it. USN was a leader in this practice both overseas and stateside as a cost - saving measure. An obvious example of military "leased" housing is the facility at Gricignano between Naples and Gaeta Italy which supports both Navy installations at those sites as well as Army, USAF and USMC personnel assigned to NATO command and other entitities in the region.

When the military tires of that "off base" housing, they simply let the lease run out, and the builder/owner repossesses the building and fills it with civilians. This was a cost control measure that was being used to help manage fluctuations (as a consequence of the Cheney drawdown that was enacted in the early to middling years of the Clinton administration) during the BRAC years, when housing was regionalized and shared amongst installations (e.g. a person working at the Pentagon might be billeted in on base housing at FT BELVOIR). This happened most frequently when there was a large concentration of facilities in a given area, or portions of a facility were closed, but not the entire installation.

Security measures that are provided to on-base housing are less onerous than those provided to areas where classified material and senior personnel work--but that's been the case since they've been designing installations with security layers which are more difficult to breach the more operationally significant they are. Once onbase, you should still have a harder time getting on the flight line than going to the Quick Stop or the swimming pool near the housing area. Even if the security is not blatantly evident, it's there--but that is another topic altogether.

So, in sum, your experience is not controlling. There's still plenty of military housing on base, and the base commander does have authority over it. The trick for a good base commander is to maintain good order and discipline without being a jerk about it.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

16. I wasn't referring to barracks...

I was referring to the contract housing where families live. The 3 bases I was stationed at (and the one in my home town that I visited frequently) had no family quarters on base.

[MADem]

17. I'm telling you, you are mistaken about all MFH being off base. Some is, but much is not.

And, in CONUS, that includes the "privatized" housing.

Here's an example not far from me: http://www.hanscom.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123231392

Pay close attention to the verbiage in this article. This is "privatized" (i.e. other agencies build on base land) housing, but it is ON BASE.

"One of the first questions we get from people interested in moving on base is, 'Will I have to move?'" Ms. Casey said. "We are happy that we have reached the stage of construction where we can finally answer no. Since the project began, about 250 families have moved so we could remodel those homes, but now the last of the 'forced moves' have been assigned."

Besides finishing up remodeling and new housing, Hunt Pinnacle will be installing new playgrounds, tot lots and many other amenities.

"Living on base offers so many advantages," Ms. Casey said. "You have the safety of living in a gated community. You're close to schools, the BX and commissary and you have no commute to work."

And, given that this thread is about a USMC base in Hawaii, I think it is salient to look at the situation those people on that base live under, and indeed, they have privatized housing off-base as well as ON BASE housing--ten neighborhoods of it, in fact.

The neighborhoods of Manana and Camp Smith are located in the southwest of the island of O'ahu and feature convenient access to shopping and Pearl Harbor. The other 10 neighborhoods are on the Windward (East) side of O'ahu and are located on MCB Hawaii in Kaneohe Bay.

http://www.fcmarineshawaii.com/

So you see, your experience at three bases is by no means controlling. I've been to dozens of bases that have on-base, gated, show-the-ID card military family housing over the years, and many of them I've visited quite recently. The housing IS behind the wire.

[Leme]

12. with what was shown here at DU

I did not quite agree at all with what post 1 said.
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You read the entire piece, posted some of it
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I am sorry, it really is a local matter
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I just was somewhat unhappy that the Marine was blamed for the occurrence based on what was shown on this page.

edit: this should have been directed to post # 11

[MADem]

15. Per the rules of DU, we're not allowed to provide the entire article.

We can only provide a "fair use" excerpt and the reader has to click the link to see the rest.

It does look like the Marine deserved the blame; he or she "overstepped" and applied the (IMO "onerous&quot rules to children which was not the base CO's charge. It was a dumb move and the Navy wife quite rightly made a stink about it. That said, to my mind the whole "dress code" at that facility is a throwback.

We will see a lot more of this in the next few years--they are trying to downsize the forces, and one good way of doing that is to make the "rules and regs" so picky and irritating that normal people -- even those with an organized, military mindset -- get sick of it, and if they see an opportunity to leave, they'll jump well before they are pushed.

[delphi72]

18. Crazy

Insane. Why does the brass want to alienate the same folks they are suppost to support?

[MADem]

19. Maybe that installation is getting a huge hit in the drawdown sweepstakes.

Piss off enough people with irritating and meaningless little rules, and they'll make a decision to quit, some of 'em.

Who knows, really? It was just a waste of resources to have someone checking the family members' clothing in the first place. Foolishness!