"The United States is the LEAST racist nation on Earth."

[kwassa]

I bet you didn't know that.

More wisdom from DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4069292

I don't have any scientific study to verify this claim, but it is true in my experience.

[Laelth]

1. I am not alerting on this, even though it's a call-out.

Frankly, I welcome this discussion.

I freely admitted that my experience was my own and purely anecdotal, but then along came a poster with some concrete evidence for the claim.

Is there a problem?



-Laelth

[BainsBane]

3. It's completely false

Well beyond the point of absurdity. Learn some history, for God's sake.

[Laelth]

7. I think you might benefit from learning something about foreign countries.

My knowledge of history is pretty good.



-Laelth

[JustAnotherGen]

8. But what is your experience in America?

I think that's key . . .

[Laelth]

9. Here, if you're interested.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4075290



-Laelth

[JustAnotherGen]

15. Thank you

I can't relate to it. I grew up in Scottsville NY - affluent town outside of Rochester - one of the few black families (bi-racial) in the community in 70s and 80's - after being born in and spending my formative years in West Germany. I now live in the county seat of Hunterdon County NJ and I am married to a white man - so I don't have the urban experience of being amongst majority of minorities in my home environment and I've never been exposed to the criminal justice system - only class action/whistle blower.

[BainsBane]

10. You make a lot of assumptions

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

And you know nothing about me or my experience with cultures outside the US.

The United States has served as the foil for all discussions of race. Other countries, even with histories of slavery, have claimed they had no racism because they compared themselves to the US: No lynchings, no Jim Crow, no race-based voter disenfranchisement. Apartheid South Africa stands out as an exception, which is why it has often been discussed in conjunction with the US in critical race studies.

The US has a death penalty and penal system built around racism. We execute African Americans at shocking rates, and the biggest factor in determining whether someone is sentenced to death is the race of the victim. Juries clearly see black lives as worth less than white lies.

Disparities in crack sentencing are entirely racial. The US prison population is filled with African American males. Blacks are arrested and prosecuted far more often for the same crimes ignored among whites.

You are operated under some bizarre misconceptions.

It's also just plain rude and insulting to come into an African American group and claim the US is less racist than everywhere is. A key factor in perpetuating racism is it denial, which is precisely what you are doing here.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. This - very well done BB

Laelth is a criminal defense attorney serving the black community so it could be - I'm personally not a bigot and completely reject the premise.

[heaven05]

38. Yeah, so is mine

Amerikkka has remained one of the most racist nations on the face of the earth according to my and my families experiences in this country. You need to learn some 'real' history, not revised or rewritten bullshit precisely because I also know something about 'other' countries cultures. Pre-Mandela South Africa was the only one worse than Amerikkka only because they could shoot down scores of men, women and children and not have to worry about an image to maintain. Where do you live?

[onpatrol98]

25. How very arrogant??

I'm not even talking about the DUer using anecdotal information. DU is notoriously clueless when it comes to matters of race.

But, exactly what variables go into an ultimate decision that the US is less racial. I needed a good laugh. Do they include the intimate experiences of a nation of minorities?

Do they include the heartache of sitting your children down to discuss the rules of walking, driving, and breathing while black in America?

Do they include the feelings of a parent looking for the right moment to explain to a biracial child what color they are? Because it matters in the USA.

As for the anecdotes of a well meaning non minority liberal...I tend to find them almost as dangerous as true racists. Because they get to glide in a parallel world of cluelessness.

Our children die daily in the real world...as they ponder and pontificate on whether one country is perceived as less racist than another.

There are non-minorities that make it their life's work to support the just cause of equal rights and social justice. I applaud their effort. I am impressed with their output. But, it will never equate with living the life. If at the end of the day, you can return to a safe world or cocoon in a country with built in privileges that you'll never see, much less acknowledge....including the privilege of assuming that proof of less racism could exist. How utterly ridiculous...

There is no checklist to a life. When I kiss my 8 year old and tuck him in at night or hold him close, the fear I feel inside is real. Quantify that. Where does my anecdote go?

The disgust I have right now, that this academic exercise in judging racism is perceived as credible because someone has "concrete evidence". Seriously???

[JustAnotherGen]

27. That's it onpatrol98

Our children die daily in the real world...as they ponder and pontificate on whether one country is perceived as less racist than another.

All of it but that sentence in particular . . .

Must be nice to have these lofty thoughts when day by day our personal safety and kitchen table economics are under threat.

[Number23]

30. Girl, I got CHILLS reading this

As for the anecdotes of a well meaning non minority liberal...I tend to find them almost as dangerous as true racists. Because they get to glide in a parallel world of cluelessness.

Yes, yes!!!!!

Our children die daily in the real world...as they ponder and pontificate on whether one country is perceived as less racist than another.

Our children die as large numbers of these folks actually PINE away for the glory days of the 1950s when the hard won rights that we've only recently gotten and are still fighting for would be completely obliterated. And these same folks wonder why so many people of color don't really see all that much difference between white liberals and white conservatives and why we don't clamor for the heads of the "1%" as much as they do. From where I sit, it's not just the 1% that could give less than a shit about me and my family.

There is no checklist to a life. When I kiss my 8 year old and tuck him in at night or hold him close, the fear I feel inside is real. Quantify that. Where does my anecdote go?

Thank you.

DU is somehow finding ways to be even more stupidly clueless about issues of race than they have in the past. And considering the Banner of Racial Cluelessness that blankets this site at even the best of times, that is truly saying something.

Between this foolishness, the revolting co-opting of all things MLK, in the past week I had an absolutely absurd conversation with a white poster who saw absolutely nothing untoward about TELLING me that it's perfectly acceptable for white people to use the N word -- even at black people -- if they grew up in a predominantly black environment. Even after telling her that I was black and grew up in a predominantly black environment myself, this person still insisted that I was wrong. There simply are no words to calmly discuss things with people like this and I don't have the patience to find them even if they did exist.

[LiberalAndProud]

37. I bookmarked this thread for this reply.

This is profound and eloquent. I want to be able to find it later.

[BainsBane]

2. That's a first.

[brush]

4. Least racist you say?

That's got to be hard to prove.

How about we ask some of the victims of racism here in this country — see what they think — maybe Trayvon Martin?

Oops, can't ask him.

What about that jury that found his killer innocent. I'm sure they would've have agreed with you shortly after their ruling. Now with George Zimmerman's, psychopathic, and criminal personality being revealed by his post-trial, gun-fueled aggressions, even they may have changed their minds (about their verdict maybe but probably not about their own racism in voting to free that killer).

Ahhh . . . maybe they aren't the ones to ask.

Let's try the birthers or teabaggers — got to be fertile territory there.

So the point is, "least racist" is like "least pregnant." The inevitable is still going to happen, even though we no longer have "whites only" accommodations. What we have now are "stand-your-ground" laws and repug voter suppression laws.

Hard to call those maneuverings "least racist". You can if you want to though but isn't it hard to see with your head buried in the sand?

[Laelth]

5. Here's what I can say that might be useful.

Conservatives often claim that those of us on the left hate America. They mistake our continuing desire to create a more prefect Union for hatred of America, itself. On the issue of race in America, we have a classic "glass half-empty/glass half-full" problem. Yes, there's still racism in America. No doubt about it, but we have made enormous progress on this issue--progress that no other country has made (from what I can tell in my limited experience). Rather than criticize the United States for work that is not yet completed, I prefer to celebrate the work we have done and the progress we have made.

1) Race was an issue that was discussed during our Constitutional Conventions.
2) We fought a war over this issue from 1861-1865.
3) We enacted the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments (directly to address this issue) shortly after the conclusion of said war.
4) We integrated our military in the 1940s.
5) We got Brown v. Board of Education in 1954.
6) We enacted the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
7) We enacted the Voting Rights Act of 1965

And we have done a lot more that I did not have the time to research and list. No country on Earth has this long, legal history of dealing with the issue of racism. As a civil rights attorney, I have litigated cases (as an advocate for Plaintiffs) under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and while the law's not perfect, it is a good law, and it has had the desired effect of limiting racism in employment decisions.

I am proud of my country for the progress it has made, and my experience tells me that other countries have not made the progress we have on the issue of race--not even close. It's your choice if you want to continue to see this as a "glass half-empty" problem. Certainly, we have not yet reached the promised land. There is much more we should do to combat injustice. That said, I am quite proud of the progress we have made, and I would like to argue that those of us on the left could benefit from taking some pride in this country and recognizing the progress we have made while we continue to work together to make America even better.

just a thought ...



-Laelth

[JustAnotherGen]

6. What other countries?

What other countries 'incorporated' with an entire segment of human beings reduced to less than human. Literally - only 2/3 of a person?

I read your comment in that thread yesterday too - and chose to ignore it. I thank you for your going the extra mile to explain it.

But I have to ask . . .


Who put the race card in the deck? That's the key question. Since this is the AA Group - I'd appreciate it if was narrowed to focus on the black American experience. That's not to reduce the impact of the White Dominant Culture Power Structure that is very much in existence today on other minorities/ethnicities - but I can only understand it from my POV - hence this group.

I would never be so arrogant as to speak for a full blooded Native American or Americans of Korean, Japanese, Indian, Pakistani, etc etc. descent.

[BainsBane]

11. The Voting Rights Act was enacted because the Reconstruction Amendments were ignored

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 05:42 PM - Edit history (1)

That was the same reason we needed the Civil Rights Act. They were in response to 100 years of Apartheid and 200 years of slavery before that.

Many countries never had segregation in the first place. Brazil's military, as well as those of other former slave societies, had people of color in desegregated units from their inception.

Race was not discussed at the Constitutional Convention: Slavery was. Slavery was a key issues at the convention because enslaved African Americans were property. The only way in which race was discussed was in denying the very humanity of Africans Americans, in comparing them to apes. That kind of pseudoscientific racism that emerged to justify slavery was practiced at the country's leading universities throughout the 19th century. Saying African Americans have the mental equivalence of apes is not a good thing. That ideology did not prevail in other slave societies in the Americas. That was our very own fucked up contribution to racism.

Other nations in the hemisphere were able to abolish slavery without war. The issue that Lincoln ran on in the 1860 election was Free Soil. Look it up. It ain't abolitionism.

And you're a civil rights attorney? Jesus. We really are fucked.

[gollygee]

13. Those laws

wouldn't have been necessary if we were the least racist country in the world. They were in response to a huge amount of racism.

And a lot of those laws are either no longer valid (voting rights act) or ignored these days (brown vs. board) anyway.

You're just plain crazy.

[Number23]

12. Is that person a racial minority?

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 07:06 PM - Edit history (1)

but it is true in my experience.

Otherwise, why in the HELL does s/he think that his/her "experience" on the matter means a damn thing to anybody?

[JustAnotherGen]

17. He/She is a criminal

Defense attorney serving the black community.

[Number23]

18. My heart bleeds, literally bleeds, for his/her clients

[gollygee]

14. I was sick yesterday or I might have seen that in the thread

Holy crap.

I only know of the West Michigan Dutch, who are generally pretty racist. There was an issue in Holland, Michigan, several years ago where the school district was looking for a superintendent, and they were so pleased to get a resume from a super way qualified person with a doctorate. They were excited and had an open meeting scheduled to interview him as they were so happy to have such a good candidate. But he was African American. No one asked any questions, and they took a vote to not hire him, and that was the end of that.

[LittleBlue]

19. We're surprisingly better than much of Europe

Europe never had a civil rights movement like we did, so many countries we view as far more progressive have never confronted race. Monkey hoots are common at European soccer games directed at black players, sometimes by the team's fans against their own player. Not just backwards countries either, places like the UK, Spain, Italy, France, etc.

Watching race relations in Europe makes me realize just how valuable MLK still is to the US.

I'm not claiming we're the least racist nation on earth, though. Not sure how you would even measure such a thing anyway.

[JustAnotherGen]

20. Fair point

Last edited Sat Nov 23, 2013, 08:54 PM - Edit history (2)

But black women in America make even less on the dollar than our white counterparts. In 2008 I had a male making more money - that worked for me. Corrected now (company was smart to do that) but it still happened.

That's what really matters. Do-re-miiiiiii. And it came down from our UK based segment to correct before it blew up . . . Since I had the highest net product I the line up that year. They are very lucky I didn't go down the road - with the three year plan.

ETA - economically - Medgar and Malcolm were probably more valuable to us. But Europe WILL have an MLK - just will be of a middle Eastern North African and/or Muslim. It won't be a black Roman Catholic or Protestant.

[Number23]

21. Europe really is struggling with this and has been for centuries

The anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim taint on many European countries has been particularly confronting to see recently.

But I don't know if anyone can say with any authority that the US is "surprisingly better than much of Europe" in confronting this issue, hooting at soccer players at games aside.

[JustAnotherGen]

22. I agree

And point blank: they didn't need an MLK. Think of the soldiers that stayed - treated like grown men for the first time in their lives. My older Uncle was sent to England in the 1960's and my younger Uncle to France.

My dad was playing war games. My grandfather sent his hot heads away to Europe to get them the hell out of America in the MLK days.

Ooohhh the irony Number23 - wasn't it just this past August that we learned from our fellow DUers that MLK really "wasn't all about black rights in America" and instead all about white working class people. That he wasn't race based?

Which is it? They can't have it both ways. They can either white wash him or leave him as is - but they can't have it both ways as fas as I'm concerned. What says you?

[Number23]

23. Oh girl, it's been way longer than August. A loud, ignorant and embarrasingly clueless group have

been whitewashing and trying to claim MLK's mantle here for YEARS. And not just here -- it's a pretty common occurrence for white people that are trying to increase the stature/exposure of whatever cause they are trying to put out there that "THIS was MLK's true cause!1" and that he did so much more than "just" worry about a bunch of dirty Negroes.

(Someone here actually used the word 'just' as in to say that "MLK didn't just deal with black rights." That "just" has stayed in my head and probably will forever)

[gollygee]

24. People might be outspoken and say really mean nasty things

But we have a society built on racism. We stole a this land from Native Americans and killed most of them off, and then enslaved a bunch of people from Africa to work the land and live as sex slaves in an inhumane system of race-based slavery. Not every country was created from that sort of history, and not every country built its legal and criminal justice systems to enforce slavery and racism.

"Racism" isn't measured by how many mean things people say.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. You nailed it!

"Racism" isn't measured by how many mean things people say.


Certainly - not in America.

[1StrongBlackMan]

28. I take a deep breath ...,

before reading any thread about racism here on DU, especially those started by white folks ... and (as of late) typically do not post to them because I have neither the time, nor energy, to discuss where these posts on off the rails. But in this case, I will make only this brief observation:

The OP's equating their anecdotal observations (as a white liberal, I presume) to the lived experience of those directly affected by racism, proves to be the racial problem in America.

[M0rpheus]

29. This ^^^^

Exactly this!

[Number23]

31. Hell yeah

The OP's equating their anecdotal observations (as a white liberal, I presume) to the lived experience of those directly affected by racism, proves to be the racial problem in America.

Thank you. And like you, I stay out of the vast majority of race threads in GD as well. I don't have the patience or the energy to toss myself into the tsunami of privileged stupidity that race discussions here always become.

Edit: But the OP wasn't the issue. It was the response to the OP that kwassa highlighted. As far as white liberals go, MADem is truly one of a small handful that I think has the capacity for the compassion that you need to have a clue about this kind of stuff.

[MADem]

34. Probably because I'm "NQW!"

I'm a little bit of this and that and can pass for anything but east Asian if you don't look too close!

I catch it from all sides!

My answer to "What's your race?"

"Human."

[1StrongBlackMan]

32. True that ...

MADem is one of the few, though there are a couple more that "get it."

On a slightly different note, Sunday evening I caught a NPR segment about the passage of the Fair Housing Act ... How Daddy Romney spoke powerfully in favor of it ... and the attacks he received from liberal white folks, who were fine with all the Civil Rights legislation ... so long as it was directed at the south. The FH Act meant white liberals would be affected, too ... and they weren't happy.

ETA: Oops ... I was directing this to Number 23.

[TJ-Tretman]

35. Not anywhere close

While America may seem like a beacon of tolerance in a world where the Far-Right seems to be gaining ground in Europe and rampant ignorance is in many other parts of the world, it isn't. America simply has put a mask over the subject of ethnicity and skin color. Thanks to taboos set in the 1980s, even being slightly racist has its repercussions. So, the majority of racists don't show their identity to people in real life. But, sadly, America is rife with intolerance and racism, it's just that the deception of no racism in America lives because there is little overt racism. In reality, I would say America is more racist than most of us think, and that's a problem.

[1StrongBlackMan]

36. I would suggest ...

In reality, I would say America is more racist than most of us think ARE WILLING TO ADMIT ... BECAUSE THE ADMISSION WOULD REQUIRE ACTION, FOR LIBERALS/PROGRESSIVES , and that's a problem.