Why can't DC compete with Marvel on the big screen?

[white_wolf]

Aside from Nolan's Batman franchise DC has been really lacking on the big screen. Marvel is blowing them out of the water when it comes to movies. Why do you all think this is and can DC fix it and start to compete? Is there just something about the nature of DC's characters that don't fit movies? What do you all think?

[Codeine]

1. Could it be the costumes?

Iron Man is badass powered armor, Thor looks like a fantasy warrior, Hulk is just big and green, etc. The only Avenger with a classic superhero costume is Cap, and even he has a bunch of straps and pouches and stuff to make it look less goofy. Hawkeye has a shit costume in the books, but thankfully lost it for the film.

OTOH, Supes has tights and a cape, which looks great on a page but faintly absurd on film. The Flash lacks the cape, but he's all one big ol' primary color, which may not work onscreen. Wonder Woman's duds scream "slutty Halloween costume" I'm afraid, and would probably need a fetish-y work-over to look good.

The Green Lantern stuff looked decent, IMO. Too bad the film was such a drag.

But the real reason the properties from Marvel have been good? The same reason that the last two Batfilms were good -- great actors who really enjoyed their roles and well-crafted dialog. A good director and a tested, skilled actor can make the classic DC tropes sing, as we've seen with Nolan and Bales. Casting Van Wilder will fail every time.

[Broken_Hero]

2. I agree very strongly with your last paragraph nt

[white_wolf]

3. I've never thought about the costums before...

but now that you mention it does make sense. Even I kind of thought Captain America looked a little silly next to the rest of the Avengers.

[WCGreen]

4. That's the point, I think of the whole idea of Captain America....

I remember when they first resurrected him. I really liked him, he fit the fish out of water underlaying theme of most marvel comics.

He was a stranger in a strange land rocked with guilt about losing Bucky and seeing the woman he loved as an older woman.

[fe6252fes]

7. +100

[mythology]

5. I think there are a couple of reasons

First DC has, other than Christopher Nolan and to an extent Tim Burton, not gone after quality directors. So they have largely wound up with plotless movies. While I think there are several problems with the Avengers movie, the first two thirds of the movie were more about plot that action which is good.

Another issue is that DC's characters, other than Batman, tend to be big over the top characters. It's kind of hard to put Superman in a vulnerable position because he's too powerful. Batman is just a man, Iron Man is a sick guy in a suit, Spiderman is a kid who stumbled into his powers etc. Even in the Thor movie he largely lost his powers.

When DC has done movies that weren't based on all-powerful characters, Batman, Road to Perdition, A History of Violence, V for Vendetta, they've actually made some pretty good movies.

Where DC has an advantage is in animated movies. They just haven't been able to take the lessons learned from that to the big screen.

But Marvel has had plenty of stinker movies. The third Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four movies, the most recent Punisher movie, and the Ghost Rider movies for example.

I think for DC to start creating better movies, they need to focus less on being big blockbusters, or at least not exclusively on that and focus on character driven movies. They did a great job of this in the recent Batman animated movie Year One which is more about Jim Gordon than it is about Batman. To make a good Superman movie, don't make him all powerful, demonstrate his human side. That he's bulletproof, but those he cares about aren't.

DC should also create more compelling movie villains. To be fair, the random aliens in the Avengers were pretty crappy, but look at the portrayals of Lex Luthor in the Superman movies. B-grade villainy is hard to present as a threat. Give the villain a personality and a reason to be opposed to the hero. It's why the Joker is such a great villain for Batman. Order versus Chaos. Or Magneto versus the X-Men in a repeat of a number of real life situations like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr where the question is what is extremism in defense of one's people.

Another approach I would use is to leverage lesser known characters like Animal Man or the Booster Gold in smaller budget live action movies. One other area that I think they could gain an edge is to explore female characters. Although DC is somewhat weak in this area because most of their female characters are tied to male characters. But Huntress could carry a movie if done in a similar but lower budget fashion as Nolan's Batman and in theory so could Catwoman although that won't happen for a while.

One other thing, which goes back to the fact that their female characters are primarily linked to their male characters that I think causes DC problems in the movie arena, is that they have these families of characters that makes it hard to utilize the subcharacters. You can't really do a Robin or a Nightwing movie while the Nolan movies are on-going and you can't do a Supergirl movie unless it's an off-shoot of a Superman movie, which haven't really done well. While putting the characters in these families does make it easier to do small cross-overs in the comic universe, it does creatively limit you in the movie universe. It would be hard to do a Bat-family movie for example, because in terms of action, the characters are too similar.

[Dr. Strange]

6. +1 on the villain thing

The Dark Knight worked well because the movie focused on one villain: the Joker. Let the actor hash out the character; give them the screen time to do it. Spider-man 2 worked well because of this too: Molina was (largely) the only bad guy, and he gave a performance that made Doc Ock interesting. Some of the earlier Batman movies (and I'm worried that this might happen with The Dark Knight Rises with Bane and Catwoman) and Spider-man 3 tried to shove in too many villains. As a result, they can't help but become cardboard characters.

[wyldwolf]

8. Some of this is a myth. Here are the numbers...

Last edited Tue Jun 19, 2012, 05:22 AM - Edit history (1)

Granted, this is all pre-Avengers (but pre-Dark Knight Rises). DC heroes have done comparatively well to Marvel's.

Despite the uneven reviews, who here knew Superman: Returns outperformed Thor, Captain America, and both Hulk Movies (3 of the four main heroes of the Avengers) at the box office?

Superman: Returns $200,081,192
Hulk I $132,177,234
Hulk II $134,806,913
Captain America $176,654,505
Thor $181,030,624

Only Iron Man (and Iron Man II) out performed Superman: Returns:


But let's go back a little further to the two Fantastic Four movies:

FF1 - $154,696,080
FF2 - $131,921,738

Two of the four X-men movies grossed less than Superman: Returns

X-Men: The Last Stand $283,381,800
X2: X-Men United $282,322,000
X-Men $231,134,300
X-Men Origins: Wolverine $190,975,100
X-Men: First Class $144,024,100

The Spider-man series is really Marvel's standout:

I $403,706,375
II $373,524,485
III $336,530,303

If we really wanted to do a bigger comparison, we could include the Christopher Reeve Superman series and the 80s-90s Batman Series - but let's stick with the 21st century...

The real king of the Superhero movie boxoffice is Batman.

Batman Begins - $205,343,774
The Dark Knight - $533,345,358

If you're thinking I didn't include the abysmal 'Green Lantern' from the DC stables, you're right. But even Green Lantern outperformed both Ghost Rider movies and The Punisher!

I also didn't mention that several of the 80s-90s Batman movies outperformed Hulk, Thor, Captain America, a couple of the X-men, the Ghost Rider movies and the Punisher - but we're sticking with the 21st century. But it still calls into question the narrative that DC lags behind Marvel movies. Marvel has simply flooded the market with product.

Now I realize true comic book fans take much more into consideration than box office performance - but the ticket buying public doesn't concern itself with such things.

[Orrex]

9. Great analysis, but what about Jonah Hex?

Surely that stinker must be thrown into the mix?

And Supergirl might just be awful enough to offset Howard the Duck...

[wyldwolf]

10. LOL. You're right. Here are some more numbers

Jonah Hex was a stinker - grossing only around $10 mil.

Supergirl? Not much better at $14,296,438.

Howard the Duck managed $16,295,774 domestically (and it was the first movie I fell asleep in!)

Also on Marvel's side, how about Electra - only $24,409,722.

Kick-Ass was a Marvel movie that I really enjoyed - but it only grossed $48,071,303.

And Man-thing, so bad it was only released theatrically overseas.

I'm really wanting to see a GOOD DC movie other than Batman. I've heard studio execs like what they've seen with Man of Steel so far. And I think Wonder Woman could perform better than all of them if done right.

Marvel - actually looking forward to the new Spider Man. I think it's going to surprise people. And Dare Devil wasn't nearly as bad as people say.

[Orrex]

11. I can't believe that you fell asleep during Howard the Duck

My friend and I and the other four people in the theater stayed awake to the bitter, bitter end. It was the first honest-to-god terrible film that I saw in a theater. But not the last, alas...

My current thinking is that if I can simply avoid watching Elektra, I can continue to believe that it was never released. I like Jennifer Garner, but she was absolutely wrong for the part.

I'll see your Man-Thing and raise you Swamp Thing (which wasn't bad) and Swamp Thing Returns (which was!) The TV series wasn't bad, though. Honestly, I didn't realize that a Man-Thing film had been made. I'm going to follow my "haven't seen it so it doesn't exist" strategy on that one, too. Ditto for the Roger Corman version of The Fantastic Four.

By the way, did you mention Steel upthread?


No shortage of crap-fests in this genre, that's for sure!

[wyldwolf]

12. crap-fests for sure. On the other hand...

The 1990 version of Captain America was actually enjoyable. It was never released theatrically in the US (it was in Europe) but I saw it on video in the early 90s. Cheesy by today's standards but it was good.

Steel! I expected more from a spinoff of Superman.

We can't forget the non-DC and non-Marvel 90s - 2000s trio of The Phantom, The Shadow and The Green Hornet. I still watch the Phantom when it's on for Catherine Zeta-Jones' parts (who was going to be Wonder Woman at one time.)

By the time Bo Derek's Tarzan came in in '81 neither DC or Marvel had the rights to the comic (Marvel had it last - but stopped in '79.)

[WCGreen]

16. It was a TV Movie that I remember watching on ABC, I think....

For a real stinker, how's about Hasselhoff as Nick Fury...

[wyldwolf]

18. Forgot about Hasselhoff as Nick Fury

LOL.

[Xyzse]

13. If I had to guess

It is currently due to the licensing.
I would attribute Marvel's current successes to their acquiring the licenses to their own characters, which allows them to make a concerted effort in regards to their properties.

DC is a little bit more diffused so to be more prone to Hollywood Studio involvement rather than being able to tell their own story.

There is some merit to the argument that some DC characters are overpowered and so they become a little bit boring since great heroes are judged by their enemies.

If I were to say make a Superman trilogy movie, I would probably set up current day, pre-quel, sequel.
Meaning, let him fight something so devastating immediately.

Put in an enemy like Darkseid or Braniac while having Luthor on the sidelines(more a presence than an actual enemy, heck make him the President in the first movie). So he has the ability to actually "Show Off" what he can do.

Make the 2nd movie about his origins, which has been done so many times already, but allow it to show the reasons of some of his actions on the 1st movie.

A 3rd movie will be against Luthor, hopefully by then they have set up a new Batman character and do the Batman/Superman where they become the fugitives.

Any how, just talking with tongue in cheek so feel free to not take that seriously.

[deacon_sephiroth]

14. the way I see it...

This conversation used to happen A LOT on Comicvine and I agreed with some very good points, but here's the way I see it.
(Also I'm a Marvel fan my whole life so take this with a grain of salt)

1. DC never NEVER grew out of that really old school feel. If I pick up a DC comic, I still feel like it was written in the 50s or 60s, and no one is lining up for that at the theater.

2. Half the characters (at least) are way too overpowered. DC characters are for the most part just stupidly overpowered, and can't be put in realistically strained and dangerous situations where you have to fear for them or wonder if they will win, unless they get attacked by something equally stupidly overpowered, and by then you've left the planet and it's all just a star-fileld CG wank-fest and that's not really going anywhere.

3. The costumes would need a LOT of retooling to not look ridiculous on screen, on a real person.

4. The fanbase: To pitch these movies to big enough studios that can do them justice, they need to blieve that you can not only bring your built-in fanbase but also attract a whole new movie fan-base... and only Batman seems to do that... because Batman has all the trappings of a Marvel character.

[Broken_Hero]

15. Some good points,

I disagree to a point on point 2. Half of the characters in DC being overpowered? I'm a DC homer, so my bias is there, but I really can't name anyone in DC that is overtly powerful, at least in comparasion to the Marvel Universe.

I'm a Superman fan, and people tell me constantly that he is over powered, and I say...where, and when? I haven't seen him dominate much of anything, on a consistent basis in over 25 years. In the times that they do make him powerful, aka Avengers vs. JLA, or Marvel vs. DC Universe, outside of those times I cannot really see Superman being overtly powerful. He constantly gets his ass kicked, he gets slapped around by non-descript bad guys, and gets made to look a fool on many occasions. Thats just my experience from the comic book side, and from the Animated series of DC, Superman gets punked on a continual basis, with the exception of his latest animated movie, Superman vs the Elite.

About the only overtly powerful DC hero I can think of is Batman...he always wins, he hardly ever loses(I mean really lose), and he kicks just about everyone's ass, almost always, on a consistent basis, across Comics, and Animated series/movies. And as baddies go Darkseid, and Doomsday are up there in power, but just Superman/Thor power....

Outside of Batman I cannot think of anyone powerful in the DC universe....

On the Marvel side you got a lot of powerful heroes/villians, Galactus, Thanos, Thor, Hulk, Phoenix, and Sentry to name a few, all of which I believe are stronger than Superman(except Thor, I believe both are equal) and would pummel him into the ground. The cosmic powers of the Marvel universe are a lot stronger than anything I've ever seen from the DC side, outside of Green Lanterns, and Firestorm I really can't think of anyone who uses strong cosmic power on the DC side.

I'm a DC homer, and I think the Marvel side is substantially stronger in terms of big baddies(both heroes/villians), so yeah, I disagree somewhat with the "DC heroes are too powerful" line.

Not sure about your number 1 cause I don't know which DC comics you are picking up, are they new ones? Ones from the 90s? I'm currently getting about 13 DC monthlies, and all the Batman titles don't have much of the old 50's/60's feel to them(most are rather graphic), and I believe there are at least 5 Batman titles out there. The current Superman line is rather bland, but that is how he is portrayed, and I'm use to it.

I think DC can do the movies, if they get the right person....Marvel studios has brought in Iron Man, Thor, Thanos, Black Widow, Spiderman, 5 Xmen movies, 4 Spiderman movies, and done an Avengers film with the Hulk, and the Chiturri....

If someone told me 10yrs ago, there would be an Avengers Movie with the Chiturri, with the promise of Thanos I would've called that person a blind fool of a liar....the Marvel universe is pretty stacked, there is some great SCI FI to be had there, and DC does have some properties that could rival that, if the movie studios/powers that be get the right people to pull the film's together.

I agree on your number 3, cause Marvel had to do the same thing aka Xmen uni's.....

I think the fanbase is there, if you utilize the heroes of DC in a decent way...I'm so sick of seeing Superman get down played in movies, no actual fighting....no throwing toe/toe with anyone, and usually getting punked rather easily...I would love to see a decent superman movie where he is actually...Super, and not just in power, many times he is portrayed as being pretty pedestrian IQ wise.

I think seeing an epic battle, between Superman vs. Anyone would be pretty great....in Avengers they let Hulk/Thor get after it a bit, and they did that well....I wish the folks at DC/Studio's would put in the same effort with the DC titles.

I enjoy the Marvel films, I wish that DC could get their shit together and put out some quality non-Batman films.

And I cannot wait to see Man of Steel...I hope it pans out well, and Thor 2 will be epic!

[WCGreen]

17. The Thing and Hulk fought at least once every two years in either the Hulk

book or the Fantastic Four when I was collecting back in the late sixties and early 70's...