Religious-dress ban may force Quebecers to choose God or career

[rug]

French-Canadian nationalist party aims to prohibit public-sector employees from wearing religious attire

by Massoud Hayoun | December 13, 2013 | 6:00AM ET

MONTREAL — Catherine Lu often passes the giant cross atop Mont Royal on her way to McGill University, where she teaches political theory, focusing on concepts of individual rights.

After lawmakers from Quebec’s center-left, French-Canadian nationalist Parti Quebecois (PQ) in November revealed controversial legislation that would bar public-sector employees from wearing religious dress like Muslim veils, Sikh turbans and Jewish kippas — everything with the exception of small symbols like the cross, Lu says she began to resent the giant crucifix, composed of a few dozen lightbulbs that appear to float above the city after nightfall.

“I see it now as a sign of arbitrary privilege,” she told Al Jazeera. “It has this privileged place that’s totally unjustified.”

Opponents of the Charter of Quebec Values who are mounting what they say will be a large interfaith rally Saturday at Montreal’s Palais des Congres argue that the measure would force non-Christian employees of the state — at government offices, hospitals and schools — to choose between religious observance and their careers.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/12/13/veiled-threat-quebecsproposedbanonreligiousdresssplitsaprovince.html

[Cleita]

1. Has it not occurred to those people that loss of freedom to dress

in garb that is of spiritual comfort to the wearers is taking away the freedom of practicing a religion of choice from them? Although my Catholic relatives gifted me with any number of small crosses over the years to wear around my neck, I have refused to because I regard them as symbols of torture. Yet, I don't renege those who do wear them if they find some spiritual comfort in them. I don't care if others want to wear scarves, veils, turbans or pentagrams either. Forcing ones beliefs on another, even the belief in atheism, is wrong.

[cbayer]

4. I think it's occurred to them. In fact, I think that is their intent.

It's not about atheism, it's about keeping Quebec homogenous and christian.

[cleanhippie]

19. What is "the belief in atheism"?

Atheism is the LACK of belief in a god.

How can NOT believing be a belief?

[Cleita]

20. Because you believe you are right and there is no proof that

a greater power doesn't exist so therefore it's a belief.

[cleanhippie]

21. Wow. Just wow.

Ignorance. It's what's for dinner.

[Cleita]

22. It's pretty ballsy of you to pass that kind of judgement

because I wouldn't be so rude to tell you I think the same of you, but since you started this.

It's very ignorant to think you have all the answers. There is a great unknown out there and in my opinion when we find what people call a god or gods it will be science that discovers this unknown. Until then, it's pretty ignorant to claim that it doesn't exist. So anyone who claims that atheism isn't a belief system is wrong.

[cleanhippie]

23. You claim that not believing in a god is a belief.

That is as ignorant a statement as one can make.

Good luck with that.

On edit: just where did I ever claim I had any answer at all? Where did I make any claim at all? Hint: I didn't. You made it up.

[Cleita]

24. Oh, I'm not alone.

Many philosophers, you know guys with degrees and doctorates, have said as much. I'm on a mobile device so I can't cut and paste links but there is a whole Google page on it.

[cleanhippie]

25. WTF are you even talking about?

My only question to you was "how can not believing in a god be a belief?"

You then proceeded to go of the reservation of reasonable thought and accused me of making claims I never made. What. The. Fuck?

No you tell me you are not alone? That philosophers and guys with degrees and doctorates have said as much. As much what. Why are you even talking about?

Lets try again.

How is not believing in a god a belief?

[Cleita]

26. Okay, I'm living in an isolated island out in the Pacific Ocean all my life.

I have never seen a car, but someone visiting has told me that there are cars to ride around in on other islands, but I reject the whole idea that such a thing exists because it doesn't seem possible to me. It's a belief system because I have closed my mind to the possibility that cars exist. I believe there is no such thing as a car. This belief is as absolute as those kids who believe in Santa Claus. Atheists believe there is no God and that you can't deny. And I'm done. This conversation is stupid.

[cleanhippie]

27. Lol

I really do believe that you are living alone on an island in the pacific.

You really should move, then you wouldn't find rational thought so "stupid."

[PassingFair]

28. He's not saying he has "all the answers".

He's saying no one has "all the answers".

[PassingFair]

29. What's "ignorant"....is

WORSHIPPING something that is "unknown".

[Cleita]

30. I agree. But that was not the discussion. n/t

[MADem]

2. Interesting push-back.

That said, try NOT wearing "religious garb" in Meccah or Riyadh or Teheran--or even go out in once-secular Iraq without a scarf--and see how far ya get....

No worshipping the Flying Spaghetti Monster over in those corners of the globe!

The thing is, women can observe the Quranic "requirements" (and they aren't really requirements; they're "interpretations&quot with a baseball hat, a large beret with the hair stuffed up in it, a number of "Church Lady" hats, or even a Joan Crawford style turban. A popular style of dress in Iran is the "manteau" which is often worn with pants and would fit right in in most western societies.

There's absolutely no NEED to look like one is straight off the plane from Riyadh in the 15th Century; one can be observant and fit in with the prevailing culture's dress standards without any fuss at all. That, though, wouldn't be any FUN. I think part of the thrill of wearing religious attire for both men and women is the "LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEE" aspect. People who wear religious dress that is not part of the cultural majority ARE stared at, or noticed, simply because they are unusual. I think some people like the damn attention (a lot of these, in my experience, are converts). The women who would prefer to tone down the "outward display" often have asshole husbands who will not permit it.

At the end of the day, though....does this legislation even have a hope in hell of passing, or is this AJ playing the Poor Pitiful Me card? I'll believe it when I see it, I guess.....

[cbayer]

5. Is there something wrong with looking like you are straight off the plane

from Riyadh in the 15th century?

I think those that are most attached to their religious garb are actually the least likely to be looking for attention. Hassidic jews, sikhs, amish? These tend to be very private and low key people in my experience.

A little off topic, buy my daughter just returned from a trip to Saudi Arabia. She had to wear the appropriate garb when in public and it was a very interesting experience. Had she done otherwise, she would have not only faced consequences but been much more guilty of the "LOOK AT MEEEEE" attitude that you describe.

[MADem]

7. Is there something wrong with looking like you're straight of the plane from

Los Angeles in 2013 if you're landing in Riyadh? Or Tehran?

There shouldn't be....but there is. You'll get beaten about the head and body by the Virtue and Morality police.

Your daughter also had to have a man with her when she went out in public...otherwise, she's subject to arrest! And NO DRIVING!

Hasids and Amish rarely leave their neighborhoods or their close-knit societies (though you'll see Hasids travelling in groups to Israel, frequently enough, if you're on any old flight to Tel Aviv). I've never seen these guys teaching at liberal arts colleges in Boston, or running the register at Walmart! Sikhs, yeah, they're out and about, as are Muslims, but the others tend to stay close to home.

In my experience, there are an awful lot of "Yusuf Islams" out there, here in USA, both male and female. A lot of the guys are like John Walker Lindh, with the affluent parents who ship them off to Yemen to learn Arabic without even checking the situation on the ground.

FWIW, "Yusuf Islam" is a bit of slam/sardonic expression referencing converts--it's a term that makes a bit of fun of people who convert and completely change their appearance, grow the beard, affect a "costume" that makes them look completely different, etc., and run around overusing "Peace be upon Him" and other expressions in a well, obnoxious way. It's the name that Cat Stevens took when he converted. He's actually stuck with it, but a lot of Yusufs give it up when they realize they miss their beer!!

Young Muslims tend to roll their eyes at these guys who are dressed up like grampa...they'd rather look like Kobe Bryant or Beckham than the seventy year old imam down at the mosque. It's sorta like the white kid from the blindingly white suburbs dressing up like Fifty Cent, or something--of course, Justin Bieber has stolen that look, so I imagine it has jumped the shark with anyone from the city who wants some street cred.

Like I said, I'll believe this "legislation" when it is signed into law. I don't think it's got legs. We'll see!

[cbayer]

9. I think you are making my point for me, MADem

I think we strive to be a more tolerant and diverse society and wouldn't want to emulate those places. So I think it's just fine if someone gets off the plane here looking like they just stepped out of 15th century Riyadh. I see no reason to expect them to conform. In fact, I would want the opposite and hope we would welcome it.

Agree that there are some who use religious garb as an attention getting costume. I feel the same way about the overly tattooed and pierced and people who dye their hair purple.

Funny stuff about the Yusuf Islamists. But we did the same thing when we were hippies, didn't we? I got tired of sleeping on filthy mattresses and eating beans after awhile.

I am very hopeful that this legislation will not pass and, if it does pass, that there is a major revolt. I've already heard from some Canadians that post here that a lot of very good doctors will leave. There are a lot of unintended consequences here which they haven't considered.

[MADem]

10. I don't think this legislation is going anywhere.

I think AJ is "sounding the alarm" a bit and giving the crazy backers of this scheme more cred than they deserve.

Those tattooed folks will probably wish that they opted for the kufis and the dishdashas instead of the ink in about ten or twenty years!

Way easier to change up that stuff!

Actually, though, I think--no, I pretty much know-- that there are many women who are forced to wear hijab and if left to their own devices they would eschew it. I know that there are a lot of guys who are sexist assholes who run around in their thin linen shirts and light trousers in the summer heat, while their brides swelter in a heavy, lined abaya with lead weights in the hem so an errant breeze doesn't allow it to ride up.

So, for every woman who stands up and bellows how much they love being swaddled in sweltering clothing in the heat of summer, there are many others who don't have the freedom to pipe up and say anything, and if they dare to so do, they'll pay for it once they get home.

So....there's a lotta nuance with this topic. I don't have a problem letting anyone wear what they WANT to wear, but at the same token, I know that a lot of that wearing isn't voluntary.

[cbayer]

12. I don't think this is about AJ.

There is a lot of public support for this and there has been significant concern that this could, in fact, pass.

I agree that many women would lose the hijab if they could. I have also read some really interesting pieces that women that would not or who choose to wear it even though they don't have to. It not being voluntary is the issue, as you state, not the wearing of it per se.

[MADem]

13. AJ likes to paint some issues as more "dire" than they actually are.

Not quite playing the victim, but close. They're straight outta Qatar, they have a POV.

Does that mean all Quebeckers would be banned from wearing religious gear?
The rules would apply only to publicly-paid employees. These include police officers, prosecutors, doctors, teachers, daycare workers and other government workers.
The charter would affect non-government workers when it comes to face veils, however, as it would make it mandatory for everyone to have their face uncovered while receiving a state service, such as applying for a driver's licence.

What religious symbols would be allowed?
The charter would allow public sector employees to wear "small" religious symbols, such as a necklace with a small crucifix, or earrings with the Muslim crescent.
What is considered small and who would enforce the rules?
The proposal included graphics showing the kinds of religious symbols the government would allow for employees. But the proposal did not include plans for a formal measuring system, leaving the meaning of "small" as undefined.
Bernard Drainville, the minister responsible for the charter, has said there would be no need for “religion police" to enforce the rules, and that common sense would prevail in disagreements. The charter proposes that state ministries and organizations adopt their own implementation policies to ensure religious neutrality and to manage requests for religious accommodations.

.......

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/quebec-s-values-charter-what-is-it-and-what-will-it-change-1.1458292


I think this will be a hard sell. The article suggests it's going to have a tough time passing, and if it does pass, it will go straight to the courts.....

[cbayer]

3. I can't see how they can exclude christians from these policies.

What about clergy of other faiths? What about the hair of hassidic jews?

This is just ridiculous.

[Bragi]

6. They are promoting a secular society

It's like in France, where religious garb of all sorts is banned for people who are delivering public services on behalf of the state.

[cbayer]

11. I agree it's like France...

in that they want to maintain a homogenous state.

Have you been to France? It's crammed full of religious icons, symbols and people in religious dress.

Do you think they would prohibit nuns and priests from wearing their religious garb when working in public service jobs?

They aren't striving for a secular society. They are striving for an exclusively catholic society.

[MisterP]

8. "you still have the freedom to wear suits and ties like good, civilized Quebecois"

[struggle4progress]

14. Quebec cabinet minister responsible for ‘values’ charter pulls out of debate ...

Canadian Press | 28/11/13 1:08 PM ET

MONTREAL — ... Bernard Drainville said he had no choice but to cancel his presence at Montreal’s Concordia University because there was a real risk it could get out of control. The Quebec Public Interest Research Group at Concordia had promised to protest outside the event, describing the charter as “xenophobic” ...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/11/28/quebec-cabinet-minister-responsible-for-values-charter-pulls-out-of-debate-because-of-apparent-concerns-for-his-safety/

[struggle4progress]

15. CSN denounces Charter of Values

CTV Montreal
Published Thursday, December 12, 2013 2:32PM EST
Last Updated Friday, December 13, 2013 8:13AM EST

The CSN labour federation has voted against the government's Bill 60, saying the Charter of Values goes too far

About 300 delegates are gathered in Quebec City to discuss the Charter of Values, and most members of the labour organization believe the ban of religious symbols the Parti Quebecois is demanding is too broad

The CSN believes public workers in positions of authority, such as police officers, judges and daycare workers, should be banned from wearing religious symbols.

However the union is concerned about what would happen to current public sector employees who wear symbols to express their faith ...

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/csn-denounces-charter-of-values-1.1587099

[struggle4progress]

16. Increasing resistance to Quebec’s charter of values

By: Haroon Siddiqui Columnist, Published on Sat Dec 07 2013

MONTREAL — The Jewish General Hospital will not be alone in its planned civil disobedience against the Charter of Quebec Values. The English Montreal School Board and the town of Hampstead in Montreal would also defy the Parti Québécois plan to ban religious clothing in the civil service and the broader public sector ...

Côte St.-Luc, the other Montreal municipality with a sizeable Jewish population, has said it would not fire employees for wearing a kippa, turban or hijab during the time the law is being challenged in court, as it is bound to be ...

The French-language Université de Montréal and Université de Sherbrooke have joined McGill and Bishop’s universities and the English-language community colleges in condemning it. So has the Assembly of Catholic Bishops of Quebec.

The bishops accused the government of trying to find a solution to a problem that does not exist ...

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/12/07/increasing_resistance_to_quebecs_charter_of_values_siddiqui.html

[struggle4progress]

17. Bravo to the Charter of values! A magical solution to ethnic conflict

By Josh Freed
The Gazette
December 8, 2013

... For the first time in memory I’m in bed with a gang of sovereignists — comfortably under the covers with Parizeau. The truth is the charter is splitting the normal federalist vs. sovereignist lines in Quebec and creating new alliances and divisions — while separating the separatists ...

The charter conflict scared the glib Bernard Drainville into pulling out of a debate at Concordia campus, because he felt threatened by a handful of peaceful demonstrators — who I think a braver man would have ignored ...

I don’t think this law will ever pass — it’s just political theatre — but if it ever did there’d be massive civil disobedience, by a sea of people wearing outlawed headgear they’d never put on before. I’ll be the one in the pink turban ...

Meanwhile, doctors at the Jewish General tell me the charter has got everyone there emotionally bonding, especially Arabs in hijabs and Jews in kippahs — an astonishing feat. It’s as if the PQ has discovered a secret weapon to unite conflicting minorities ...

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Josh+Freed+Bravo+Charter+values+magical+solution+ethnic+conflict/9257651/story.html

[struggle4progress]

18. Drainville is Scared of a Real Debate on the Charter

Published December 3, 2013 | Updated December 3, 2013

Despite being the minister in charge of the Parti Québécois’s proposed Charter of Quebec Values, Bernard Drainville sure seems scared of defending it.

Citing security concerns, Drainville backed out of the Concordia-hosted debate on Nov. 21 at the last minute, leaving Liberal MNA Kathleen Weil and former Québec solidaire interim president André Frappier to discuss the bill. Both Weil and Frappier’s parties disagree with the proposed charter in its current form, so the ensuing discussion was less of a debate and more of a one-sided conversation.

As for the alleged security risk—the protest, planned by Concordia’s chapter of the Quebec Public Interest Research Group, only saw a handful of people holding a sign while standing peacefully outside Concordia’s J.A. de Sève Cinema ...

Much has been made of QPIRG Concordia’s refusal to say whether they intended to disrupt the debate, but we’ll never know whether the event would have proceeded normally because Drainville was too cowardly to actually show up—to defend his charter in front of those who will be directly be affected by it ...

http://thelinknewspaper.ca/article/5152