Pope's crackdown on order alarms traditionalists

[Eugene]

Source: Associated Press

Pope's crackdown on order alarms traditionalists

AP foreign, Saturday December 14 2013

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis may have been named Time magazine's Person of the Year, but he has come under scathing criticism from a growing number of traditionalist Catholics for cracking down on a religious order that celebrates the old Latin Mass.

The matter concerns the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, a small but growing order that was founded in Italy in 1990 as an offshoot of the larger Franciscan order of the pope's namesake, St. Francis of Assisi.

The Vatican in July took the order over and last week imposed remarkable sanctions: closing its seminary, suspending ordinations and requiring priests to accept the post-Vatican II Mass.

The case has become a flashpoint in the ideological tug-of-war going on in the church over Francis' revolutionary agenda, which has thrilled progressives and alarmed conservatives.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/feedarticle/11109551

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Yawn. Call me when the Pope changes anything.

, of course!

[edhopper]

2. I applaud this

this is not just lip service, but an action aimed at some of the most reactionary of Catholics (this is Mel Gibson's sect).
Good for him.
Maybe he will do a Vatican III at some point?

[cbayer]

9. He has scheduled a big meeting of the bishops.

I think it is this summer.

This will be the time to look for action.

[TheBlackAdder]

3. He needs to crack down on the biggest fringe Catholic group... The Cult of the Virgin Mary n/t

[Sanity Claws]

4. What is the basis of your statement?

Mary is central to Catholicism. What are you calling "The Cult of the Virgin Mary?"

[TheBlackAdder]

6. It goes beyond what can be described here. The Pope knows. n/t

[rug]

10. Invoking ominous vague woo doesn't really help your case.

[TheBlackAdder]

13. That's OK. It was just a general comment. No case to prove. n/t

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

20. It's not that you have not proven your case,

You haven't actually stated a case.

[Demit]

14. What do you mean, it goes beyond what can be described here?

Take all the space you want. Describe it for us.

[amerxp]

5. YEH

Again dogma of religion. Lets take Muslim women out of their uniforms, tell the people that you are not born with sin or a sinner, tell the people that their are not 72 virgins in the sky, that if you get rid of your individual holy books that world would be a better place. Stop pitting one god over another think yours is the true savory, start eating pork Oh I forgot the Jewish faith or any crazy beliefs other religions have.

[Squinch]

7. I fear for that guy.

[cbayer]

8. Good, the traditionalists being alarmed is a good sig, imo.

And for those that are looking for action, this is action. Eliminating the fringes is a very good step.

[libodem]

11. I had a friend who was raised in a Catholic Cult

Up in Northern Idaho. They had refused to switch over when mass no longer had to be said in Latin. Her mom was a nutcase. And the nuns that taught in her school had very creative discipline methods.

I think the abject abuse from both family and church contributed to her lifespan only lasting 45 years.

[cbayer]

12. Yikes!

I have heard of these but have no first or even second hand knowledge.

I am sorry for the loss of your friend.

[libodem]

15. She had a tough life

It should have been a book. She was studying the Rosecrutions when I met her. She was done with the Catholic Church. Plus she had 5 kids before she figured out birthcontrol was not a sin. Most of the kids were a mess.


She was a good nurse. Beautiful and intelligent. But damaged.

[cbayer]

16. So sad.

I hope her kids get the kind of help that will save them from her fate.

I think some of these fringe groups are much more like cults than religion. I hope that is what the pope sees as well.

[rug]

19. It was CMRI, wasn't it?

http://www.cmri.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_of_Mary_Immaculate_Queen

Schuckhardt was a dangerous and destructive indindividual.

[libodem]

27. OMG

I'll net you are right. Sounds like it!

[TM99]

17. Why can't there be both?

Implement the the Vatican II changes that progressed the church forward into the modern age, but allow a choice to be made concerning Latin or vernacular masses. To completely force all churches to give up all Latin masses is throwing the baby out with the bath water. The Latin mass is beautiful and amazing to experience even for a non-Catholic like myself. Modern is not always better.

[cbayer]

18. I think it has a lot more to do with the Latin mass with

this particular group.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

21. There are actually two Latin masses to consider here

The first is the Tridentine Mass, established in 1570. The second is the so-called Novus Ordo ("New Order&quot , sometimes called the Mass of Paul VI, established in 1969. The Novus Ordo is generally given in the local language, but there is a Latin version which can be used anywhere.

The problem is that many Catholic reactionaries insist on using the Tridentine Mass, and some go so far as to say that Novus Ordo masses are not legitimate masses.

[cbayer]

22. Thanks for that.

I know very little about this part of catholicism.

From what I am reading, this has to do with many things other than just the use of this particular mass, right? They appear to be pretty cultish and extreme.

[pinto]

23. Extremists. They reject anything that came out of Vatican II. Consider all Popes since then invalid.

The church has no Pope. That's their big picture. So they see themselves as the only "true" Catholic church.

Very aggressive within their limited realm in Catholicism.

The mass issue Fortinbras mentioned above is a part of it. Here in SLO there's one Latin mass, one Spanish mass, the rest in English. That's heresy in their view.

They've publicly castigated any religious order that has secular involvements, as well. Particularly Jesuits and Franciscans - nuns, friars and priests.

I suspect this Pope used the mass issue to crack down on them.

[cbayer]

24. Well, then good for him for cutting them off.

Sounds like they need to start their own church.

[skepticscott]

25. If they do

they'll be showing more courage than most.

[TM99]

26. I am not Catholic

so thanks for clarifying on the group. Extremists are unnecessary but I do hope that the Tridentine Mass is not completely done away with as the Novus Ordo Masses just aren't as powerful or as beautiful, in my estimation.

It would be wonderful and far more effective a tactic to simply allow for the Tridentine Mass to be performed by any and all Catholic churches and orders. That way the 'reactionaries' don't co-op it for their political purposes necessitating such a harsh crackdown that bans that mass entirely.

But humans are humans and organizations this large reflect that so all of this is not surprising.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

28. If one cannot understand Latin

Then the Latin Mass is tedious and boring. In the days of the Tridentine Mass, it was common for people in the pews to say the Rosary, basically to give them something to do while the priest was mumbling (often inaudibly) in an incomprehensible language, with his back turned towards the congregation.

I once attended a Bar Mitzvah at a Conservative Jewish synagogue. It started promptly at 9 am and ended at noon. Virtually all of it was in Hebrew, a language I do not know at all. For a majority of the pre-Vatican II Catholic laity, going to Mass was much like that, except that it only went on for an hour.

No, the "good old days" of the Tridentine Mass were not all that great, and I for one do not miss them.

I should say that I can read Latin well, and I think it is a beautiful language. My favorite piece of religious music is Mozart's Great Mass in C, which has music like this: