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SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 03:46 PM Dec 2013

Picking fights over religion and the separation of church and state

“We have just enough religion to make us hate," wrote Jonathan Swift, "but not enough to make us love one another." A lifelong religious controversialist, the 18th-century Irish satirist definitely knew whereof he wrote. After all, it's fewer than 20 years since Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland quit dynamiting each other's gathering places.

Even here in the United States, it often seems that picking fights over religion increases during the Christmas season. If anything, claiming to be persecuted while expressing contempt for others' beliefs appears on the rise.

And, no, I'm not talking only about the annual invocation of paranoid triumphalism Fox News calls the "War on Christmas." Nor even about noted theologian Rush Limbaugh assailing Pope Francis as a "Marxist" for criticizing the tyranny of markets and the worship of money. Because Jesus was all about capital formation and tax cuts for the wealthy.

Everywhere you look, somebody's insulting somebody else's religion.

http://santamariatimes.com/news/opinion/editorial/commentary/picking-fights-over-religion-and-the-separation-of-church-and/article_4272fc88-661b-11e3-8dba-0019bb2963f4.html
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Picking fights over religion and the separation of church and state (Original Post) SecularMotion Dec 2013 OP
I dunno. I see more unity and shared joy in the season during this time of year than I see cbayer Dec 2013 #1
Nice oxymoron Goblinmonger Dec 2013 #2
Hey, whatever she can do to demonize and attack the other team. n/t trotsky Dec 2013 #27
I am about as strong a non believer as you can find edhopper Dec 2013 #3
Huh? Why would I want to do that? cbayer Dec 2013 #4
I would argue with you about this edhopper Dec 2013 #6
Agree. While I don't think both can be correct, either, cbayer Dec 2013 #9
I just wish you'd stop labeling, defining, and marginalizing people. trotsky Dec 2013 #11
I think there is every point in debating edhopper Dec 2013 #16
"People have every right to be wrong about this". I'm stealing that one! cbayer Dec 2013 #18
Feel free. edhopper Dec 2013 #23
His point may be that we should all just relax. Jim__ Dec 2013 #5
I think you may be right. cbayer Dec 2013 #10
Well unless of course you are a woman working for Hobby Lobby. Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #40
A pretty good read. longship Dec 2013 #8
Where do you see evidence that liberal theists are afraid cbayer Dec 2013 #12
Well, I wasn't citing the liberal believers words. "Unclean heathens" longship Dec 2013 #15
I think you are right about most mainline protestant churches and I have little hope that they will cbayer Dec 2013 #17
I'd send you some snow, but I know you'd resent it. longship Dec 2013 #19
Um? edhopper Dec 2013 #7
Well, it's the same kind of scolding that happens on DU. trotsky Dec 2013 #13
I agree that it is a false equivalency. cbayer Dec 2013 #14
He's correct. rug Dec 2013 #20
Nice succinct definition of fundamentalism right there. cbayer Dec 2013 #21
It is. rug Dec 2013 #22
Yes edhopper Dec 2013 #24
What exactly do you think contempt adds? rug Dec 2013 #25
Perhaps contempt isn't the best strategy. edhopper Dec 2013 #28
Well, when it comes to climate change and GLBT civil rights, I am pretty much cbayer Dec 2013 #26
But do you see edhopper Dec 2013 #29
The difference, as I see it, is that being a religious fundamentalist cbayer Dec 2013 #30
Pretzels around the world are very impressed! cleanhippie Dec 2013 #31
Sure there are edhopper Dec 2013 #32
No, you really can't say that. cbayer Dec 2013 #33
That seems more accurate edhopper Dec 2013 #34
The difference with religion in general, and the concept of god cbayer Dec 2013 #35
So how do you feel about those that believe edhopper Dec 2013 #36
They don't bother me in the least, unless they then cbayer Dec 2013 #37
ok edhopper Dec 2013 #38
It's been a pleasure having this discussion with you, edhopper. cbayer Dec 2013 #39
my pleasure edhopper Dec 2013 #43
you are pretty much engaged in equivocation here. Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #41
I was responding to a definition, not presenting one. cbayer Dec 2013 #42

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
1. I dunno. I see more unity and shared joy in the season during this time of year than I see
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:01 PM
Dec 2013

an increase in insults between the religious.

The example the writer uses is of an increase in conflict between the religious and irreligious. He is talking about fundamentalists, both believers and non-believers.

And then makes the case for separation of church and state.

In the end, I'm not sure what his point is.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
3. I am about as strong a non believer as you can find
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 04:50 PM
Dec 2013

I would like you to show me how my non-belief in a deity is a result of ideology and not a reasoned and logical conclusion from a long period of critical thinking. Or how any of my dismissals of arguments to the contrary (which i have listened to for years) has any fundamentalist quality to it.
Or perhaps your definition of fundamentalist is different.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
4. Huh? Why would I want to do that?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:08 PM
Dec 2013

I take your word for it.

The author talks about believing and non-believing fundamentalists.

I realize that some people object to that, but I think there are non-believing fundamentalists as well as believing fundamentalists.

There are those who are stridently attached to their non-belief in a way that puts them in the position of saying that anyone who has come to a different conclusion is not just wrong, but even delusional. They insist that they, and they alone, are right.

You have come to your personal position through your own use of reason and logic. I believe that others, including religious people, have come to a different position using the same tools.

My own position is that you both have merit and reasons for landing where you do. Not only do I not think one of you is right and one of you is wrong, I don't think it makes any difference.

As long as you both are using your position to advance the causes that I share, it's all good. Once either of you start using it to infringe on the rights of others or harm others in some way, we have an issue.

Since neither of you can "prove" your position or "disprove" the position of the other (and most likely will never be able to), my position would be to give you both credence.

Those that insist on being right and who see everyone else as wrong are fundamentalists, in my opinion. Dogma is dogma, whether it be religious or not. I object to both anti-theism and anti-atheism because I think both are divisive and non-productive.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
6. I would argue with you about this
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:19 PM
Dec 2013

But I see you are talking more about behavior than the belief or non belief per se.
I don't agree that both can be right, but we have been down that road and don't think we need to hash it out again.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
9. Agree. While I don't think both can be correct, either,
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:41 PM
Dec 2013

I see no point in debating what is essentially irresolvable.

I do think there is room for all of us, though, and those who wish to eliminate people that don't see the world the way they do are…..

well, there are lots of words for what they are.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
11. I just wish you'd stop labeling, defining, and marginalizing people.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:44 PM
Dec 2013

Perhaps the spirit of the holidays will warm your heart.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
16. I think there is every point in debating
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:32 PM
Dec 2013

something that I think is logically obvious. But I don't think we should go beyond debate. People have every right to be wrong about this.

Jim__

(14,075 posts)
5. His point may be that we should all just relax.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:17 PM
Dec 2013

Nobody's coming to steal our right to practice or not practice religion as we see fit.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
10. I think you may be right.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:42 PM
Dec 2013

In the end he is just saying everyone should take a more laissez faire attitude.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
40. Well unless of course you are a woman working for Hobby Lobby.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 05:06 PM
Dec 2013

And if the USSC votes the wrong way, your right to not practice religion will be superseded by your employing corporation's invented right to practice it's religion.

longship

(40,416 posts)
8. A pretty good read.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:37 PM
Dec 2013

It lays down the line between those who would use politics and legislative fiat to impose their religious beliefs on others, and an increasingly outspoken group of non-believers who are sick and tired by being marginalized, and who see clearly how some within a theistic majority choose to use that power. We are willing to reach out to the liberal theists, but they seem to be afraid to associate with us apparently unclean heathens. There have been a few out reaches, but there have been far too few.

I don't give a damn what people believe. But organized religion's grip on power has to end, the sooner, the better for everybody, both for those who believe -- no matter what their religious sect -- and for those who do not.

I do not know a single prominent atheist who thinks that religion could be eliminated. And if believers are insulted by non-believers being outspoken, that's just too fucking bad. (They almost never fail to play the persecution card, in spite of the fact that they have an overwhelming majority.) They may as well get used to our voices because non-believers have had enough. We're not going to stop. Plus, in the USA we have a First Amendment and the history behind its adoption behind us.

I am encouraged by some of what I've seen from liberal believers, but it is not nearly enough, IMHO. More outreach is needed by both sides. There are those who are working this. But if liberal believers choose not to join in the fight, we'll just have to go on without their assistance. And we will.

If that makes me a fundamentalist atheist -- nearly always trotted out by those who do not understand our movement -- so be it. I'll wear that badge with honor. But believers will never hear me knocking on their doors in the morning with atheist leaflets. Well, maybe just a plea to get out and vote.

Sorry for the rant, my friend. But I disagree with certain characterizations. As you already know.


cbayer

(146,218 posts)
12. Where do you see evidence that liberal theists are afraid
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:50 PM
Dec 2013

to associate with "unclean heathens"? I see quite the opposite. There seems to be a growth of "interfaith" coalitions that include the religious and non-relgious. We may need a new word, though, because interfaith includes the idea of faith, and that is exclusionary on it's face.

You know that I agree with you about the power that religious groups have exerted over government and public policy. But I see that beginning to wane as well.

Richard Dawkins proudly wears a t-shirt that says "Religion - Together We can Find the Cure". How you can not see that as an endorsement of the elimination of religion, I don't know.

I totally agree about outreach being needed from both sides and am saddened when I see efforts being rejected by some groups. I see the most activity among the young and in campus groups.

You are not a fundamentalist atheist, longship. Far from it. You have a strong position and you defend it, but I've never seen you say that other positions are invalid or that they suffer from some kind of disease.

longship

(40,416 posts)
15. Well, I wasn't citing the liberal believers words. "Unclean heathens"
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:23 PM
Dec 2013

That was a bit of deliberate hyperbole with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Should have included a My apologies.

But many mainline liberal churches do not seem to be pulling their load. Maybe it's difficult for them because by their nature they eschew political involvement. I wish there was a solution to that.

Re: Dawkins. You are mischaracterizing his position based on a T-shirt. He has spoken at length on the subject many times. Yes, he wishes a world without religion. (As do I.) However, no atheist I know of believes that to be a realistic goal. And Dawkins, above all, should understand that. He does understand it, and has said so so many times that to deny it would be perverse. He was the originator of the meme. And if religion is not a meme, nothing is.

I have written of this before here, but will include it again for others. I know you are aware of it.

The concept is as Dennett has stated it -- a topic to which Dawkins has written and spoken many times. Atheists do not want to eliminate religion. We want it to evolve into an avirulent form. One that does not kill the host.

Dawkins' T-shirt might be interpreted as that "treatment". As a biologist he is acutely aware of what it means. Others may not be and will misinterpret it. Alas, Richard sometimes says and does things that can be misinterpreted. If one wants to know what he thinks, one has to read his more introspective and well thought out writing. Some of us need editors. He's a biologist, not a journalist. (Damn it Jim! )

Always enjoy the discussion, good buddy. I hope things are going well south of the border. Send up some warmth.



cbayer

(146,218 posts)
17. I think you are right about most mainline protestant churches and I have little hope that they will
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:38 PM
Dec 2013

get involved. But I think the more liberal/progressive congregations are coming back strong and I haven't seen any reluctance on their part to build collations with other religious groups and non-religious groups.

Your argument for avirulence has merit, imo. That may mean nurturing the good while trying the suppress the bad. Evolution involves better adaption to one's environment, so rewarding that which is good may be a critical part of the process.

And that may mean stopping the attack on the good people within religion. One could start by not calling them delusional.

It's beautiful down here, longship. I just ran my christmas lights along the rails and up some of the lines. Can't wait for dark!

Stay warm.

longship

(40,416 posts)
19. I'd send you some snow, but I know you'd resent it.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:45 PM
Dec 2013

So you'll have settle for sandy beaches. Tough life, eh?

A couple of my dear friends are on their way to Cozumel for the winter. I will be missing them.

Just keep the keel down and I hope your sails are always full.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
7. Um?
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:31 PM
Dec 2013

"To me, the cultural left's only marginally better than the right. I recently witnessed a remarkable online colloquy concerning a Catholic organization's shipping 3,000 rosaries to the Philipines to victims of Typhoon Haiyan, "so that they can thank God," as one cynic wrote."

So somebody "online" pointing out that sending rosaries to a people whose God just send a typhoon to kill thousands is just as bad as the right wing swill we here from Rush, Palin and Faux.
Fuck you!
Did one of these left wing cultural bombasts take to the air to tell the Filipinos that they should give up God in this tragic time? Well i could give quite a few examples of Christian assholes doing the equal to that after 9/11 against us liberals and non-believers.
No, in an online discussion, probably similar to what we have here, some left wing atheist pointed out how shipping rosaries might not be the answer. And maybe praying to a nonexistent God doesn't help. (Yes i know it might make some feel better, I am giving this unnamed posters argument)
His false equivalency is total bullshit.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
13. Well, it's the same kind of scolding that happens on DU.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:53 PM
Dec 2013

If you say something negative about religion, then you're "carrying water" for the Republicans.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
14. I agree that it is a false equivalency.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:55 PM
Dec 2013

He could have used much better examples to make his point, if he really has one.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
20. He's correct.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:51 PM
Dec 2013
The main characteristic of the fundamentalist mind is an inability to refrain from expressing contempt for beliefs different from one's own -- whether one's spiritual example is Pat Robertson or Christopher Hitchens.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
22. It is.
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 07:20 PM
Dec 2013

Even though I can see the furious scrolling down the logical fallacies app until the "false equivalency" link is reached.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
24. Yes
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 07:57 PM
Dec 2013

we should never show contempt for supply siders, Climate change deniers, Anti Gay Rights bigots or any of the bloviators on Faux.
Or does this only count for religious beliefs.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
28. Perhaps contempt isn't the best strategy.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:42 AM
Dec 2013

But to say contempt is the definition of fundamentalism is ludicrous.

Would you call me a fundamentalist for having contempt for those who would let girls die in a fire because their holy book won't let men rescue them. Am I a fundamentalist for my contempt of those that pass a Rape Insurance law, or support subsidies to corporations over feeding the hungry, or prefer stopping people from using condoms over preventing them from dying of AIDS.

Maybe contempt isn't a positive attitude, but a hallmark of fundamentalism? Hardly.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
26. Well, when it comes to climate change and GLBT civil rights, I am pretty much
Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:02 PM
Dec 2013

a fundamentalist.

Although the work is often used pejoratively, there are some areas where I am pretty rigid.

I've got science on my side for both of these things, as far as I am concerned. And those who stand in opposition can be easily shown to be wrong.

However, when it comes to religion, that is not the case and fundamentalism becomes an issue.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
29. But do you see
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 10:46 AM
Dec 2013

how those that use the very same criteria for religion as you do for science are not fundamentalist, just using the logic and reason you employ at times.

I understand you think religion should be looked at with different criteria, but to call some one who rejects many of the ridiculous pronouncements of religion, and even have contempt for the more harmful ones a fundamentalist doesn't make sense.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
30. The difference, as I see it, is that being a religious fundamentalist
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 11:20 AM
Dec 2013

is ridiculous because there is nothing to really justify saying that one's beliefs or lack of beliefs are real, true and more accurate than anyone else's.

OTOH, climate change deniers, evolution deniers and those that hold bigotry based on gender, race, skin color, sexuality, etc. hold beliefs that can be challenged with actual evidence and data.

Not only do I think religion should be looked at differently, but the constitution, a multitude of laws and the rules of this site believe that religion should be looked at differently. Those who want to champion religious intolerance and bigotry can find places to do it, but they can't do it here (supposedly) or when employing someone or when providing services.

And those who insist on doing it despite not having a leg to stand on are more often than not fundamentalists.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
32. Sure there are
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:00 PM
Dec 2013

When some one's beliefs have zero evidence to support them, then one can say they are inaccurate.

I just refuse this label of fundamentalist attached to non believers.

Perhaps someone advocating burning churches and putting priests to death. But just based on the confidence of their non belief doesn't pass the smell test.

Looking at those who we could agree are religious fundamentalist, I don't see the equivalency.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
33. No, you really can't say that.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:04 PM
Dec 2013

If I propose a hypothesis and I can't test it and you can't test it, neither of us can say that it is accurate or inaccurate.

You can refuse the label and perhaps you are not one. But I can use it and I believe that there are some.

Or maybe we could find another word that would suit us both.

I often use anti-theist, a term that has been embraced by some of the more vocal atheist writers out there. However, I often get pushback when I use that term. Not sure why.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
34. That seems more accurate
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 01:52 PM
Dec 2013

in talking about those who dislike the very concept of a God. I don't think we agree on the definition of fundamentalist, therefore it is problematic to use it.

A hypothesis that can't be tested or lacks any evidence at all seems rather worthless. Burden of proof and all.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
35. The difference with religion in general, and the concept of god
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 02:24 PM
Dec 2013

in particular, is that there is not, and probably will never be, any way to prove anything.

It seems ludicrous to me to imagine that we are the top of the food chain in this universe. The possibilities are so close to infinite. I can't prove it, but I believe there are more highly evolved somethings out there.

Whether this represents some kind of god or not, I don't know and don't expect to ever know.

So I live my life without regard to whether there is a god or not and try to maintain the position that a person's beliefs or lack of beliefs are just fine….

as long as they are used to promote good, combat bad or remain neutral.

I see no point in doing otherwise.

edhopper

(33,573 posts)
36. So how do you feel about those that believe
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 02:29 PM
Dec 2013

that not only is there definitely a God, but a specific God as described by their religion.
I would say that characterizes the majority of followers of religions.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
37. They don't bother me in the least, unless they then
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 02:34 PM
Dec 2013

go on to say that anyone who holds a different god to be true is bad, evil, going to burn for eternity, should be eliminated, etc., etc.

I agree that most people think they have got the right god. But many, if not most, of those people don't necessarily judge or condemn those that see it differently.

I was raised as a christian by a minister. The message I received was that other people hold different kinds of beliefs, and that's ok. Maybe their god is a different god. Maybe it's the same god but they perceive it totally differently.

At any rate, I think the vast majority of believers on DU hold a similar position.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
39. It's been a pleasure having this discussion with you, edhopper.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 03:54 PM
Dec 2013

I look forward to seeing you again.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
41. you are pretty much engaged in equivocation here.
Tue Dec 17, 2013, 05:09 PM
Dec 2013

That is not the correct use of the term fundamentalist and you know it.

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