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SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 03:45 PM Jan 2014

Humanity Is Becoming Increasingly Less Violent, with One Exception -- Religious Violence

Studies demonstrate the world is becoming less violent, and that human warfare is on the decline. There is one aspect of the human existence, however, that continues to ignite humans to commit violence and atrocities against fellow humans. A major new study published by the Pew Research Center shows that religious hostilities reached a 6-year high in 2012.

Dr. Steven Pinker, Pulitzer prize-winning author and Harvard psychology professor, writes, “Today we may be living in the most peaceful era in our species’ existence.” He acknowledges: “In a century that began with 9/11, Iraq, and Darfur, the claim that we are living in an unusually peaceful time may strike you as somewhere between hallucinatory and obscene.” Pinker points out, wars make headlines, but there are fewer conflicts today, and wars don’t kill as many people as they did in the Middle Ages, for instance. Also, global rates of violent crime have plummeted in the last few decades. Pinker notes that the reason for these advances are complex but certainly the rise of education, and a growing willingness to put ourselves in the shoes of others has played its part.

Religiosity, however, continues to play its part in promoting in-group out-group thinking, which casts the difference between people in terms of eternal rewards and punishments. Sam Harris, author of Letter to a Christian Nation, observes, “Faith inspires violence in two ways. First, people often kill other human beings because they believe the creator of the universe wants them to do it…Second, far greater numbers of people fall into conflict with one another because they define their moral community on the basis of their religious affiliation: Muslims side with Muslims, Protestants with Protestants, Catholics with Catholics.”

According to the Pew Research Center, a third (33%) of the 198 countries and territories included in the study had high religious hostilities in 2012, up from 29% in 2011 and 20% as of mid-2007. Notably, religious hostilities increased in every major region of the world except the Americas, with the most dramatic increases felt in areas still reeling from the effects of the 2010-11 political uprisings known as the Arab Spring.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/humanity-becoming-increasingly-less-violent-one-exception-religious-violence?page=0%2C0
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Humanity Is Becoming Increasingly Less Violent, with One Exception -- Religious Violence (Original Post) SecularMotion Jan 2014 OP
Certainly. Dawson Leery Jan 2014 #1
Humanity is becoming increasingly less violent? Really? cbayer Jan 2014 #2
I'll see if I can get you the source references off his book. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #3
I read the Pinker article. cbayer Jan 2014 #6
Pinkers' research and point is in regards to humans as a SPECIES. The PEW data shows an exception AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #8
You can not in any way compare data that covers thousands of years cbayer Jan 2014 #10
Pinker goes over timescales. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #15
Show me his data over the last, say, 3 decades, even. cbayer Jan 2014 #18
Well, it would be untrue, because clearly they wouldn't be the only group. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #20
I'm not questioning Pinker, by the way. cbayer Jan 2014 #23
Right, 'the author' I referred to is Werleman. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #24
Yes, as about two seconds of googling confirms. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #32
Not in Mexico. okasha Jan 2014 #4
I heard this morning that some really bad things happened last night at the border and that the US cbayer Jan 2014 #7
Not yet. okasha Jan 2014 #11
That border violence doesn't skew planetary-wide data on Homo Sapiens Sapiens. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #9
I ask again, where is the data that supports a decrease in cbayer Jan 2014 #12
Until you've reviewed Pinker's source data, I don't know what grounds you speak on that from. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #16
Has Pinker made the case that violence has decreased over the last decade? cbayer Jan 2014 #19
He has, actually. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #21
I don't disagree that there is a trend over time. cbayer Jan 2014 #25
Werleman may have made an official over-reach in comparing AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #26
I think we (once again!) are in general agreement here. cbayer Jan 2014 #27
There are some highly politicized sources to review but AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #28
And it would take a single nuclear weapon to completely change the cbayer Jan 2014 #29
Argument goal shift. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #33
Checked out some reviews on Amazon. okasha Jan 2014 #30
Good information. cbayer Jan 2014 #31
Pinker seems to be fine okasha Jan 2014 #35
Sounds to me as if the data okasha Jan 2014 #14
Lots of historical and anthropological data. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #17
We are becoming less violent? Where do they see that? hrmjustin Jan 2014 #5
This thread is a good example of what happens... trotsky Jan 2014 #13
In fairness, it is difficult to package Pinker's supporting data with a bow and present it AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #22
No it is just plain ridiculous. The data about long term violence is widely available Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #34

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. Humanity is becoming increasingly less violent? Really?
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 04:19 PM
Jan 2014

I'd like to see the studies he is citing that show this.

The PEW findings are really interesting and there has been some previous discussion of them here, but I haven't seen any claims like this author is making before.

His quote from Pinker is 3 years old and doesn't seem to be backed up either.

Anyway, the PEW data could be interpreted many ways. This is one of them.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
3. I'll see if I can get you the source references off his book.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 05:44 PM
Jan 2014

I've linked that exact video to you in the past, actually.

I think he's done a good job showing how the data supports his claim.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
6. I read the Pinker article.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 05:59 PM
Jan 2014

His case is that violence has diminished over the last several thousand years.

The PEW data covers the last 6 years.

The article's headline is disingenuous at best. You can't compare those two things and come to that conclusion.

Oh, I forgot. He's writing for internet readers who 1) generally don't look far beyond the headline, 2) will then quote the headline as if it is fact, 3) are increasingly unable to actually look to see whether what someone is saying has anything to substantiate it, and 4) lap up bogus articles like this if it suits their agenda.

Beware of articles that start out with a false premise or make a bold statement without any citations. Alternet is famous for posting this kind of stuff.

The PEW data is legitimate. Comparing it to rates of overall human violence is over the last several thousand years is bogus.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
8. Pinkers' research and point is in regards to humans as a SPECIES. The PEW data shows an exception
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:01 PM
Jan 2014

within a certain social demographic. That's all.

Not all of Pinkers' data going back thousands of years can show anything at all WRT religion, as some of his data is older than the earliest known human religious records.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
10. You can not in any way compare data that covers thousands of years
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:08 PM
Jan 2014

with data that covers 6.

You could compare it with overall rates of violence over the last 6 years. You might even be able to stretch it to 10.

But not thousands.

The spin the author of this article has put on this is completely without merit.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
18. Show me his data over the last, say, 3 decades, even.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:41 PM
Jan 2014

Again, do you have any data to support the author's contention that rates of violence have diminished in recent history?

And in particular during the time the PEW study covers?

Let's do this as a theoretical example (I'm not claiming these things as facts, by the way):

Over the last several thousand years, people have been living longer and longer.

Over the last 6 years, black women have been dying of AIDS in increasingly higher numbers.

Then I write a headline that says this:

Humanity is increasingly living longer lives, with one exemption - black women.

This is patently untrue. Do you see how ridiculous it is?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
20. Well, it would be untrue, because clearly they wouldn't be the only group.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:52 PM
Jan 2014

The author's claim may or may not be true.

Pinker's work has held up well under scrutiny thus far.

http://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/intl_studies_review.pdf

TONS of references at the back for you, if you can't get his book at a local library or something.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
23. I'm not questioning Pinker, by the way.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 07:01 PM
Jan 2014

I like what I am reading by him. I think it is thoughtful, well researched and his points have some validity.

It's Werleman I have an issue with.

He tends to be provocative and there have been some other contentious articles by him posted here in the past.

But, imo, this is just bad journalism.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
24. Right, 'the author' I referred to is Werleman.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 07:04 PM
Jan 2014

(I think you understood that, but just in case, that was in reference to him, not Pinker)

Pinker occasionally comments on his Harvard page, about these sorts of things. It's possible he may have already addressed this claim here:

http://edge.org/conversation/the-false-allure-of-group-selection#sp2

And bonus, a pile of sources.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
7. I heard this morning that some really bad things happened last night at the border and that the US
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:00 PM
Jan 2014

press is not carrying it.

Did you hear anything about that?

okasha

(11,573 posts)
11. Not yet.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:18 PM
Jan 2014

I'll check out the paper from "across" later this evening, or one of my students may have information.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
9. That border violence doesn't skew planetary-wide data on Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:03 PM
Jan 2014

Not a valid objection.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
12. I ask again, where is the data that supports a decrease in
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:21 PM
Jan 2014

homo sapien violence over the last 6 years.

His is not a valid point.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
16. Until you've reviewed Pinker's source data, I don't know what grounds you speak on that from.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:38 PM
Jan 2014

I've read quite a bit of it, and I see exactly where he's coming from.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
19. Has Pinker made the case that violence has decreased over the last decade?
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:50 PM
Jan 2014

If he has, I haven't seen it.

All I can see is a much longer view. When he speaks about violence over the last decade, he compares it to violence in 1946. And even then he acknowledges that there has been a decrease in global wars that has been accompanied by an increase in civil wars. The only point he can make is that in general less people die in a civil war.

I would bet that Pinker would have real problems with how this article is framing his findings.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
21. He has, actually.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:57 PM
Jan 2014

And in the book, he included data to support it. (WRT violence/death related to war.) Yes, at the decadal scale, just this last decade.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
25. I don't disagree that there is a trend over time.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 07:12 PM
Jan 2014

But you can't draw conclusions when you are comparing apples and oranges, and that is what Werleman has done here.

It would be fascinating to see what Pinker would have to say about this.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
26. Werleman may have made an official over-reach in comparing
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 07:30 PM
Jan 2014

the PEW data to Pinker's, where the PEW data isn't 10+ years in duration.

Still, the conclusion he drew isn't... shockingly bad anyway. it seems to be more or less in-line, he just hasn't sourced it with enough data to substantiate the point. 6 years wouldn't include the violence of the worst of the Iraq war, for instance. Let alone the start of it.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
27. I think we (once again!) are in general agreement here.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 07:47 PM
Jan 2014

The PEW data is troubling if not outright alarming. Religious violence is a serious problem and needs to be recognized and addressed.

That's why when people object to the State Department having upped it's religious liaison staff, I can only scratch my head.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
28. There are some highly politicized sources to review but
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 07:56 PM
Jan 2014

The Lancet and some others had opinions on the true body count of the Iraq war. Which was really a war, and then a bunch of little civil wars.

To whom do we tally the ancillary civil wars' deaths to? When the two Islamic sects were unfettered to settle their 30+ year differences, that's when the real killing kicked in. Do we attribute that to the US, or as inter-faith religious warfare? And then between both those groups and the Kurds, do we call the nationalistic effort to create Kurdistan out of northern Iraq religious warfare, or secular nation building?

I don't even know the right answer to that question. That's a big, messy, difficult question.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
29. And it would take a single nuclear weapon to completely change the
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 08:12 PM
Jan 2014

statistics.

It has become increasingly difficult to separate out what might be a religious or a non-religious are or act of violence, I agree.

Even the PEW data needs to be looked at critically. Where does poverty (correlated with religiosity), unclear geographic boundary lines, and so many other things come into play.

In the end, I think it's important to look at the roots, but recognize the complexities.

And it is indeed big, messy and difficult.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
30. Checked out some reviews on Amazon.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 08:35 PM
Jan 2014

Apparently all Plinker"s post medieval data are European. That creates a huge honking problem with the article right there. No overlap with the Pew data for the modern ME.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
31. Good information.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 08:40 PM
Jan 2014

I don't really have an issue with Plinker. From what I've read, he's done some interesting work.

But trying to use his work in this context is just ridiculous.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
35. Pinker seems to be fine
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 11:49 PM
Jan 2014

for what he covers. Pew is pretty reliable for what it covers. It's just that they don't cover the same thing, so it's not valid to use one to exrrapolate from the other

Not a public peep yet on the border violence. Will check again tomorrow.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
14. Sounds to me as if the data
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:26 PM
Jan 2014

--or possibly the reporting--are already hopelessly skewed. Where does his information about "thousands of years"of violent behavior come from?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
17. Lots of historical and anthropological data.
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:41 PM
Jan 2014

Studies of archaeological remnants of ancient humans, as well as modern isolate cultural societies that match some of that ancient data in social order.

His book, 'The Better Angels of our Nature' lays out a lot of sources.

Like the Freakonomics guys, Pinker says a lot of things that surprise or even outrage on the surface, but if you dig into the data behind it... Interesting things happen.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/02/26/are-people-getting-dumber/zoom-out-and-youll-see-people-are-improving

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
22. In fairness, it is difficult to package Pinker's supporting data with a bow and present it
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 06:59 PM
Jan 2014

in an easily digestible manner, beyond what he himself is capable of. 'Go read his book' isn't the best debate tactic, but this is a weighty issue, with very boring and voluminous data to consider, so it doesn't lend itself well to simple casual discussion, when stark disbelief is on the table.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
34. No it is just plain ridiculous. The data about long term violence is widely available
Mon Jan 20, 2014, 09:53 PM
Jan 2014

And now pretty much commonly accepted. The argument being made against it is motivated by the next part of the op's thesis "except religious" and is dishonest, see for example up above where an attempt is made to argue that regardless of the actual data on long term violence the possibility of a nuclear war negates it.

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