German Bishops Say Catholics Reject Rules On Divorce, Birth Control, Premarital And Gay Sex

[Warren Stupidity]

PARIS, Feb 3 (Reuters) - Germany's Catholic bishops, responding to a worldwide Vatican survey, said on Monday that many Church teachings on sexual morality were either unknown to the faithful there or rejected as unrealistic and heartless.

They said the survey, drawn up for a synod on possible reforms in October, showed most German Catholics disputed Church bans on birth control and premarital or gay sex and criticized rules barring the divorced from remarriage in church.

The results will not be news to many Catholics, especially in affluent Western countries, but the blunt official admission of this wide gap between policy and practice is uncommon and bound to raise pressure on Pope Francis to introduce reforms.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/03/german-bishops-sex-rules-_n_4718711.html

As has been the case for decades. New pope, same situation.

[Warpy]

1. The faithful know that a bunch of celibate old men

have absolutely no business commenting on sexual matters, let alone issuing rules for conduct.

They're the same here in the US. A majority of Catholics use contraception and are pro choice.

The Church needs to concentrate on the third world if they want anyone to believe their unrealistic claptrap on anything happening below the waist.

[skepticscott]

2. Yes, but as far as they are concerned

it is "god" who has issued the rules, which are unchangeable as a result. The celibate old men are just the messengers.

Deep down though, most of the laity know that these rules don't come from "god" (or from any authority they respect), so they feel no obligation to obey them. Why they hang around such a backward, medieval, bigoted organization at all is a mystery.

[rug]

3. What a marvelous amalgam of ignorance and clairvoyance is this post.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. self referential irony?

[rug]

5. Use clairvoyance for the answer.

[libodem]

6. LOLOLOL

I see what you did there. I couldn't help but chuckle.

[Brettongarcia]

7. Note that the Pope had invited this feedback; and called a Synod, to discuss these "Family" issues

Francis MAY be hoping that once it is known how unpopular the old ideas are, pressure for liberal change builds. So that in October, more open-minded positions on "family"/sexuality issues might be formally espoused.

Much of the rest of the Vatican might resist him; especially conservative American popes like Charles Chaput of Philly. Who has already reiterated his strongly anti-abortion position, in a recent "Web Exclusive" in the conservative, partially online journal First Things.

But it may be Chaput and the old Catholicism are in trouble.

I'm one of the commentator/critics of Chaput's advocacy of the conservative anti-abortion position, by the way.

http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/01/march-for-life-homily

[Warren Stupidity]

8. My guess is that the liklihood of substantive change is near zero.

This data has been widely known for decades. The RCC has known of the disconnect between the OldMenInRome and the people who call themselves catholic for a very long time, and they really don't care. If Francis actually does care I doubt he has the support to do anything about it.

[skepticscott]

9. The Catholic Church will not change as a monolithic entity.

It may split, if enough current members could ever muster the courage (which they could do tomorrow, in fact). But a core will always remain as the church is right now. The only questions are, how many people will it keep, and will they be able to convince the outside world that they, and not the departed, still constitute the One True Church.

[Act_of_Reparation]

10. Francis couldn't do that even if he wanted to...

...and it my distinct impression he does not.

Nevertheless, the Pope is limited in what changes he can to doctrine. He's as much bound to established doctrine as the president is to the constitution; he can't just change shit because a lot of Catholics want him to. I can't conceive of a way he would be able to get any doctrinal reform of that magnitude through the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

[Brettongarcia]

12. Francis called many priests "little monsters." And chastised them for the pride of being priests.

Then he criticized the fixation on gays and abortion, as "obsessions."

Of course Francis cannot change anything too obviously, too quickly. But he can start tweaking the semantics of old doctrines. To engineer in loopholes. That remember, is the classic high theological style. Linguistic/semantic ambiguity. And permeability.

What can he do to improve the church? He can tweak the language of traditional dogmas.

Semantic equivocality is everywhere in theology and in the Bible. Jesus for example, told us "blessed are the poor." Does that mean 1) the poor will be helped, by giving them material support? Or does it mean the exact opposite of that: does it mean 2) it is good to STAY poor, and not distracted by material possessions.

Semantic sleight-of-hand. Now you see it, now you don't. That's the ticket. All popes played word games with doctrines, in the past. Trying to put a positive spin on this, the Bible is called "poetic."

Benedict tweaked it all, in the wrong way. But it can be reversed.

By the way? Benedict XVI, was Joe Ratzinger; before being pope, head of the Congregation. But under pressure, even after becoming pope, he resigned.

Benedict had huge liabilities. He was from the southern, most Nazi part of Germany; Munich. He served at the age of 16 in a Panzer division in WWII. Like many Germans, he would have likely felt compelled to join Hitler Youth, or the Nazi party. Some of this is acknowledged not just in Wiki, but in his own biography written while still "Cardinal Joe Ratzinger." Just a year ago, with scandals all over the Vatican, he was forced to finally, resign. (Remotely, as a sort of anti-pope?).

Francis looks MUCH better; and seems to have been exposed to rather Marxist, "liberation theology." He also belongs to the Jesuits; the most intellectual and rational of all the various orders.

Of course the Church is a cumbersome and dangerous bureaucracy. So some caution is in order. But the situation is not hopeless. I'm currently indirectly dialoguing with several Bishops, Archbishops, etc..

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

13. In fairness to Pope Benedict, I must comment on

Benedict had huge liabilities. He was from the southern, most Nazi part of Germany; Munich. He served at the age of 16 in a Panzer division in WWII. Like many Germans, he would have likely felt compelled to join Hitler Youth, or the Nazi party.

His parents, by all accounts, were not Nazi supporters. Ratzinger joined the Hitlerjugend because the Nazis could and did imprison the parents of boys who did not join. At 16, he was drafted into the Luftwaffenhelfer -- an auxiliary to the air force, where he was a telephone operator in an anti-aircraft unit (AA was, for some reason, under the air force, not the army). He was released, then drafted into the Reich Labor Service (Reichsarbeitsdienst) where he dug anti-tank traps in Hungary. After six months, he was sent into the army, where he was assigned to an infantry unit in Munich which never saw combat. In the confusion in 1945, he deserted and went home. When the Americans got to his house, they arrested him and sent him to a POW camp for about three weeks, after which he went home again.

[edhopper]

11. Looks like it's time for

Vatican III.

Holding my breath.