Faith-Healing Parents Jailed After Second Child’s Death

[Warren Stupidity]

Two young children died after parents refused to treat them with medicine

By Eliana Dockterman @edockterman Feb. 19, 2014

A Pennsylvania mother and father who believe in faith-healing were sent to jail Wednesday for causing the death of their young, sick child by refusing to take him to the doctor. It was the second of Herbert and Catherine Schaible’s children to die under their care.

“You’ve killed two of your children…not God, not your church, not religious devotion — you,” Philadelphia Judge Benjamin Lerner told the couple, as he sentenced them to between three and a half and seven years behind bars. The Schaibles pled no contest to third-degree murder in their eight-month-old son Brandon’s death last year from pneumonia.

Read more: Faith-Healing Couple Sent Jailed After Child Dies Without Medical Care | TIME.com http://nation.time.com/2014/02/19/faith-healing-parents-jailed-after-second-childs-death/#ixzz2tnjRQ9Iz

[BlueStreak]

1. Oh well, they have 7 kids they haven't killed yet, and they can always make some more.

[struggle4progress]

6. ... Their remaining children range in age from 4 to 18 and all but the eldest are in foster care ...

Philadelphia faith-healer couple sentenced to prison in son's death
Dave Warner
Reuters
1:49 p.m. CST, February 19, 2014

[hrmjustin]

2. Why were they not put in jail after the first one?

[skepticscott]

5. Are you really that naive?

Can you possibly have read as much on this board as you seem to, and still pretend not to understand?

[rug]

23. What's the reason?

[Brettongarcia]

35. Some might say: legal bias in favor of Religions; almost no matter what evil they do

Pro-religious bias, calling itself "freedom of religion," many would say, allows religions to do many things that would criminally prosecuted, fully, if anyone else did them.

In this case, the couple were FINALLY prosecuted. But only belatedly. And then they were let off on probation?

[struggle4progress]

8. They were given a decade probation after promising the judge to seek medical care for their children

in the future

... Common Pleas Court Judge Carolyn Engle Temin ... said she had "thought long and hard about this sentencing" and had ruled out prison. But she made clear that they must get regular medical exams and care for their seven children, now 1 to 15, until they turn 18 ... Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore said she was less interested in prison time than in the assurance that the children would regularly see a doctor. "It was a fair sentence," Pescatore said afterward. "It will be time-consuming, but the probation officer is really going to have to pay attention to make sure they're following through with this."
Parents get 10 years' probation in child's faith-healing death
By Joseph A. Slobodzian, Inquirer Staff Writer
Posted: February 03, 2011

[hrmjustin]

9. Thanks for the info.

I really did not know why.

[struggle4progress]

11. It might be hard to second-guess. In the 2009 case, they argued that hadn't understood

how sick the child was, the symptoms being similar to common cold, and called to the stand only one witness, a coroner who testified that the actual mortal infection might actually have killed the child within just a few hours. Malicious intent seemed lacking, though the jury found negligence. They made statements to the court indicating their grief and promising it wouldn't happen again. The DA didn't particularly want to see them jailed, but wanted the kids to get medical care

http://seattletimes.com/html/health/2013649895_apusprayerdeathtoddler.html
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2010027246_apusprayerdeathtoddler.html
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2014106580_apusprayerdeathtoddler.html

[hrmjustin]

13. Well I bet that da feels bad now.

[struggle4progress]

16. Hindsight is perfect

The judge who gave them probation declined to jail them in April

... "When asked why you didn't call a doctor or seek a medical professional, you said, 'Because we believe God wants us to ask him for healing,' " Lerner said. "You did that once, and the consequences were tragic." Lerner said the couple "knowingly, intentionally, hypocritically and callously violated" the most important term of their probation. But he did not detain them Monday because their remaining seven children already had been removed from the home by the Department of Human Services. The couple could face five to 10 years in prison for the probation violation. "You are not a danger to the community," Lerner said. "You are a danger to your children" ...

Judge rebukes Rhawnhurst couple over death of another child
BY JASON NARK
Daily News Staff Writer
Posted: April 24, 2013

[Warren Stupidity]

18. "But he did not detain them Monday"

Outside of "god told me to do it" what other child murders are given this sort of deference?

[struggle4progress]

19. I don't have any statistics for probation violation cases in Pennsylvania

If you can locate, or develop, such statistics, the resulting discussion might be interesting, of course

[enlightenment]

27. Parents who leave their

small children in a hot car.

[struggle4progress]

31. Here's a very common sort of case where no charges are filed:

No charges to be filed after accidental shooting claims life of Wewoka boy
Posted on: 5:43 pm, February 10, 2014, by Chellie Mills
updated on: 07:05pm, February 10, 2014
... The sheriff’s office tells us they have ruled this an accidental shooting and no charges will be filed in the case.
http://kfor.com/2014/02/10/no-charges-to-be-filed-after-accidental-shooting-claims-life-of-wewoka-boy/

Investigators: Toddler found gun in bedroom drawer before shooting sister
Posted: Thursday, February 6, 2014 4:00 PM EST Updated: Friday, February 7, 2014 5:04 PM EST
... Investigators say .. they don't believe charges will be filed against the parents because they do not pose a threat to society ...
http://www.wbtv.com/story/24655769/officials-17-month-old-shot-by-3-year-old-sibling-in-shelby

No charges after family member’s gun fatally shoots 2-month-old on Christmas Eve
By David Edwards
Thursday, December 26, 2013 10:23 EST
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/26/no-charges-after-family-members-gun-fatally-shoots-2-month-old-on-christmas-eve/

Questions surround Indy child's fatal shooting
By Jill Disis 10:07 a.m. EST December 9, 2013
... a family is grieving after a 3-year-old boy pulled a loaded gun off a kitchen counter and shot himself in the head ... Chris Wilburn, a spokesman for the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, said a preliminary investigation indicated the child's death was accidental and no one has been charged in his death ...
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2013/12/08/3-year-old-killed-himself-gun-on-kitchen-counter-police-say/3908497/

No Charges Will Be Filed In Accidental Shooting Death of 13-Year-Old Brooklynn Mohler
By Dominic Kelly, Fri, November 15, 2013
A 13-year-old girl in Nevada is dead after her friend accidentally shot her while holding a family member's gun. Now, the District Attorney is saying that no one will be charged in what police call a “tragic accident” ...
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/guns/no-charges-will-be-filed-accidental-shooting-death-13-year-old-brooklynn-mohler

Accidental shooting: No charges filed in Crozet girl's death
By Lisa Provence
Published online 11:36am Thursday Jun 20th, 2013
and in print issue #1225 dated Thursday Jun 20th, 2013
Maggie Hollifield's obituary describes a camp-loving 10-year-old who died from a "tragic accident" in her Crozet home. Albemarle Commonwealth's Attorney Denise Lunsford agrees and will not seek indictments against the girl's 13-year-old brother nor her parents for the fatal May 21 shooting ...
https://www.readthehook.com/109743/tragic-accident-no-charges-be-filed-crozet-girls-death?quicktabs_1=1

Kentucky boy, 5, accidentally shoots to death 2-year-old sister
May 01, 2013|By Michael Muskal
... Cumberland County Coroner Gary L. White said an autopsy of Caroline Starks showed the toddler had died from a single shot from the .22-caliber rifle. The death has been ruled accidental and no charges will be filed ...
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/01/nation/la-na-nn-kentucky-boy-accidental-fatal-shooting-sister-20130501

[Warren Stupidity]

32. so you see no difference between accidentally shooting somebody and intentionally depriving a person

You care for of critical medical care? After already killing another of your wards?

[struggle4progress]

37. The parents' earlier conviction was for involuntary manslaughter:

Involuntary manslaughter .. does not require .. intent ... Rather .., the charge of involuntary manslaughter penalizes unintentional killings ... To prove involuntary manslaughter, a prosecutor must show that the defendant caused the victim's death by reckless or grossly negligent conduct ...
Pennsylvania Involuntary Manslaughter Laws

Thus the parents' earlier conviction required a jury finding of reckless or gross negligence

About 20 children are accidentally shot on an average day in the US. Here's a story from yesterday

6-year-old shoots self in the foot with uncle's gun
Posted: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:15 PM EST
Updated: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 2:51 PM EST
By WBRC Staff
BIRMINGHAM, AL (WBRC) - ... The .. uncle ... didn't know his nephew had found the gun ... While they were driving to get something to eat, the boy accidentally shot himself in the foot. Charges are not expected to be filed in the case ...
http://www.myfoxal.com/story/24766239/6-year-old-shoots-self-in-the-foot-with-uncles-gun

Many such stories seem to me to show elements of negligence

[trotsky]

3. Some folks (thankfully they are few) say we can't tell someone their beliefs are wrong...

unless we can PROVE they are wrong. Very glad we do not adhere to such a ridiculous standard and that therefore parents like this can be punished.

[skepticscott]

4. And no doubt someone is conducting a Google search right now

with the rather despicable object of trying to show that religion and religious beliefs had nothing whatsoever to do with this.

[trotsky]

7. Ugh, thanks for reminding me of that despicable behavior. n/t

[rug]

24. Information is despicable?

All righty then.

[Act_of_Reparation]

34. If ever anyone required proof of the poisonous nature of religion...

...one need look no further than this forum, where ostensibly good people go out of their way to make excuses for child murder.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. I think two dead kids is pretty conclusive proof.

[trotsky]

14. I do too.

But to them, it's only proof that their god had other plans.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Then they should probably kill their god in self defense.

[rug]

25. Proof of what, the deficiencies of Pennsylvania's criminal justice system?

[struggle4progress]

12. People can believe whatever they want. But their acts and omissions may still be subject

to some limitations

[Warren Stupidity]

17. How about the people and institutions that propagate these beliefs?

Are they accountable?

[struggle4progress]

20. Perhaps you would like to propose statutory language that could be discussed

I expect the problem you will encounter is how to protect recognized free speech rights

Someone, who explicitly advocates for commission of a specific crime at a definite time and place, might sometimes be held accountable, if that crime then occurs

Without instant nexus, however, the situation will be much trickier

[Warren Stupidity]

21. I agree there is a 1st amendment issue.

I'm not asking if the government should prohibit religious idiocy, I'm asking a more general question on accountability. Should religious institutions that advocate crap like this be held accountable?

[struggle4progress]

22. What exactly do you mean, if you don't mean by statute?

Would you suggest vigilante action?

Are you hoping everyone will spend their days denouncing them on the internet?

Maybe the West Virginia Cannabis Sacrament Church ("Whoa, dude! This box is full of rattlesnakes! Where did you put the Twinkies?") should denounce them as heretics?

[Warren Stupidity]

26. I hold lots of people and organizations accountable for their actions.

Don't you?

[struggle4progress]

28. What exactly do you mean?

[Warren Stupidity]

29. Seems perfectly clear to me. You seem to have limited accountability to state action.

For example I hold George Zimmerman accountable for the death of Trayvon Martin. The state will not being doing a damn thing about it.

Now, do you think that the religious organizations that convince people to do wantonly lunatic bullshit like this should be held accountable for their actions, or not?

[struggle4progress]

30. You hold him accountable exactly how?

You threaten him with legal action, say?

Or do you merely mean that you post certain opinions on the internet?

I doubt GZ is much concerned by the latter, though he may rather enjoy the idea that some people talk about him

[Warren Stupidity]

33. you cant do it, can you?

[struggle4progress]

36. I won't pretend that posting on the internet counts as "holding someone accountable"