Alcoholics Anonymous, Without the Religion

[cbayer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/us/alcoholics-anonymous-without-the-religion.html?_r=0

FEB. 21, 2014


For some, a typical A.A. meeting is an anguishing choice between sobriety and hypocrisy. Chris Maynard for The New York Times

By SAMUEL G. FREEDMAN

Three floors above a Manhattan street of loading docks and coffee shops, in a functional room of folding chairs and linoleum tile, a man who introduced himself as Vic began to speak. “Today is my 35th anniversary,” he said. The dozen people seated around him applauded, and several even whooped in support.

By most overt measures, this gathering two weeks ago was just another meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, one of its multitude of meetings worldwide. At the session’s end an hour later, however, as the participants clasped hands, instead of reciting the Lord’s Prayer in usual A.A. fashion, they said together, “Live and let live.”

This meeting, as the parting phrase suggests, is one of a growing number within A.A. that appeal to nonreligious people in recovery, who might variously describe themselves as agnostics, atheists, humanists or freethinkers. While such groups were rare even a decade ago, now they number about 150 nationally. A first-ever convention will be held in November in Santa Monica, Calif.

The boom in nonreligious A.A. represents another manifestation of a more visible and confident humanist movement in the United States, one that has featured public figures such as Bill Maher, Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens. Yet this recent trend within A.A. also marks a departure from the organization’s traditional emphasis on religion.

more at link

[rug]

1. Debating the existence of God is not the way to get sober.

[cbayer]

3. The "higher power" concept has been difficult for many for a long time,

and there haven't generally been any good alternatives to the traditional AA model.

I would like to see this change, particularly since so many are "ordered" into meetings in some fashion.

[rug]

9. The thing about AA is the only thing that matters is to stop drinking.

The thing about a higher power is that it's not you.

Lots of people in early sobriety stop going to meetings for a variety of reasons: too smokey, too weak coffee, too preachy, too many assholes. Most keep drinking. None of it matters, including a higher power. A meeting is one hour that you're not drinking. The hours build into days.

Further into recovery, lots of things and irritants, including God, come up. I've been to Big Book meetings where nothing but God and his bullshit were discussed. It's amazing how many people drank because of God.

There are a lot of resources for atheist and agnostic alcoholics in AA.

http://aaagnostica.org/2012/08/12/an-atheists-guide-to-12-step-recovery/

If anyone wants to find a meeting that explicitly deals with this, the local AA Intergroup has meeting lists.

The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking,

http://www.aa.org/twelveandtwelve/en_pdfs/en_tradition3.pdf

[cbayer]

10. Good insights.

Recovery rates are abysmal in general and I have always thought that without engaging in a 12 step program, it's hopeless.

But the best predictor of recovery is length of time in treatment and in residential treatment specifically (at least the last time I looked into this).

I know that many people will find many reasons to disengage or not attend meetings, but I have never known a single person who maintained long term sobriety without being engaged in a 12 step process.

[840high]

27. Good read.

[cbayer]

2. Posted in the wrong place.

[SharonAnn]

4. And yet A. A. worked for me, even with the religion aspect.

I avoided the very few meetings that were all about religion, with A. A. as the excuse and focused on the meetings where "Higher Power" was present but not dwelt on. For me, I cam to understand the A.A. group/model as the "Higher Power". Also, attendees wouldn't let me focus on my concerns about God or religion, the kept me focused on sobriety.

28 years later, I have to say that it worked for me. There's really so little religion in A. A. that I have to believe that someone (like me) who starts to focus on it is just trying to find a way to avoid dealing with their "elephant in the room", their alcoholism.

[cbayer]

6. I think it's worked for a lot of people, even if the religion part was not for them.

I have known a lot of people who were able to embrace a concept of "higher power" that was not religious but had other meaning.

OTOH, I have known those who just couldn't get past that and really resented the religious overtones of AA.

Some areas, generally urban, offer more alternative in approach when it comes to aa/na, but in some areas the religious aspect is pretty strong.

Glad it worked for you!

[hrmjustin]

5. I think it is fine here.

[cbayer]

7. It was the reply - I meant to post it to rug.

[hrmjustin]

8. .

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

11. No this stuff again!

There is no religion in AA. People are encouraged to develop a spiritual way of life which can be accomplished without religion. As for groups ending the meeting as described the 4th Tradition says 'each group should be autonomous.....

[cbayer]

12. It may depend on where you are.

In some areas of the country it is more difficult to find meetings that don't have strong religious overtones.

In other areas, it's not that difficult.

I am glad to see a growth in meetings that will appeal more directly to the non-religious.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

13. True

but as I tell the guys I work with, 'if you don't want to say the prayer, don't say it'

[cbayer]

14. As noted above (and I am quite sure you know) some people

will find any reason not to go and this sometimes presents an easy way out for them.

Not that they wouldn't find another one if if disappeared, but having a variety of meetings to choose from (no smoking, women only, closed, open, etc) can sometimes facilitate attendance.

Being with a group that you can share the "higher power" concept with without invoking religion may be just another of those options that could be positive.

[msongs]

15. the step study book is all about ONE religion, the big book, not so much. just ignore that

stuff

[EvilAL]

16. Wasn't there a ruling before that

said when people are forced to go to AA by a judge that it was unconstitutional because of the religious aspect?
I know this isn't about being ordered to go to AA, but that popped in my head for some reason..

[cbayer]

17. I think there have been a number of rulings on that.

The FFRF definitely has a problem with it, but if there are more non-religious 12 step programs, this could become a non-issue.

https://ffrf.org/faq/state-church/item/14012-court-ordered-participation-in-aa

[EvilAL]

18. Thanks for the link.. nt

[EvilAL]

19. Then it would be

a 1-step program.
1. Stop drinking!

[cbayer]

20. Were it that simple.

Even with intensive treatment, relapse rates are extremely high and recovery rates extremely low.

The best correlation is with the length of time in residential treatment.

I am assuming you have never been addicted to anything, or you might not think it is so simple.

[EvilAL]

21. I was referring to the program

since almost every step mentions God in it. If they took God out of the 12 steps, there would be only 1 left. Maybe I should have clarified that, just trying to make a funny.
I've been addicted to stuff before, still am if you count nicotine. I never had any help to quit anything. I like my beer, but I have stopped for several reasons over the years. Sometimes a month, sometimes 6, depends on what's going on.

[cbayer]

22. No, they don't, but 6/12 of the original steps do.

Those have been amended to allow for a definition of a "higher power" that does not mean "god", but can mean any number of things. It basically comes down to admitting that one is powerless over the addiction and that they must turn control over to something else.

You are apparently not familiar with the 12 steps because even if you take god out of the original ones, there is still lots of meat.

What you describe about yourself is not addiction, you know. Being able to stop and start is a different issue altogether.

You may be truly addicted to nicotine. I am. I have successfully quit at various points in my life but only with significant assistance, and I relapsed quickly and profoundly each time.

[EvilAL]

23. I've had addictions

is what I said. I don't have them anymore except for nicotine. Beer, not so much, but it sucks to stop.

I've never gone through the 12 step program, I am just going on what came up for the 12 steps. Most of them had God in them, so I made a joke.

[cbayer]

24. Sorry, did not recognize it as a joke.

I guess my experience has been that this is a pretty serious issue for a lot of people, and anything that can be done to help people access treatment and recovery is a good thing.

And then there's the old adage that addicts just need to stop, that they are weak. I don't agree with that and know that many lives have been lost due to addiction.

Including most recently one of my favorite actors and the very young son of one of my best friends.

[EvilAL]

25. Yeah, I was able to stop doing my shit,

but too many people didn't. Fucked them up.. sucks.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. About time. I was wondering how non-religious folks could tolerate the trad AA meetings

I guess they couldn't.

[cbayer]

28. In some areas there have long been alternative meetings that take a decidedly

non-religious approach.

But in some areas, that may be very hard to find.

In general, I think AA can be very welcoming and accommodating. It often depends on the level of sensitivity of the individual participant as to whether the religious overtones are really an issue or just an excuse.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

39. Thanks. It's good to know that this is addressed. nt

[longship]

29. AA is all about being helpless, so you have to give it over to a higher power.

AA is a self-help cult that portrays their members as helpless. Was it South Park or The Simpsons that featured an expose on AA? Anyway, the guy goes to AA and when they tell him he's helpless, he spirals out of control, but finally gets it together when he's talked down by his son. It's a oldie but a goodie.

AA is rubbish. Pure and simple.

[cbayer]

30. Er, I guess that's one point of view.

It's really about being powerless, not helpless.

As many addicts will tell you, they are powerless when it comes to their addictions. By the time they hit bottom, they have tried to do just about everything on their own.

It's really not a cult and while not for everyone, it has been a critical part of the recovery process for many, many people. It has saved lives.

While there are some that share your POV, there are many who do not.

Have you ever been to a meeting? Have you know anyone who has been a part of AA successfully?

What do you think the alternatives are if AA is rubbish?

[longship]

32. No need for AA, so no, not been to a meeting.

My sister is in AA. Always falling off the wagon, if she was ever even on the thing.

I think AA has no idea how to help people. It's all made up stuff. Those 12 steps. Giving it to a higher authority -- who in the Sam hell are they kidding? Everybody knows what they mean. You're helpless, powerless (whatever). No wonder their success rates are low.

If I were in that trouble, I would go to friends and family and to hell with AA.

[cbayer]

34. Recovery rates are very low and relapse rates are very high when it comes

to drug and alcohol dependency.

I think you should check out a meeting and talk to some people whose lives have been saved before you are so judgmental.

And I would challenge you to find anything that has a better success rate. Anything.

Friends and family can't help. It just doesn't work like that.

You know a lot about a lot of things, my friend, but in this area, I really don't think you have much idea what you are talking about.

[longship]

35. I will pass on that.

I don't go to church either. And for the same reason.

Real self help is showing the way and supporting, neither of which AA does. Instead, you are told you are helpless. Now how is that a good idea?

AA cannot be very honest in reporting their numbers... It's anonymous, you know. So anybody saying that they are successful has no data to back them up.

I know I am being a big cynic here, but I have a particular revulsion to unsupported hypotheses. And AA is just such a thing. No data? No support that what they're doing generally works. Plus, there's the religious thing. A higher power? What higher power? That pretty much does it for me. And anecdotal evidence is not acceptable, which due to the anonymous part means they don't collect data.

Sorry, my good friend. I am not with you on this one.



Going down to -10F this next week. Brrrrrrrrrrrr!
Take a dip in the warm surf for me, eh?

[cbayer]

36. Longship, you are making statements that are just not based in what really happens.

You are basing your opinions of AA on some myths and misperceptions, and that is not like you.

AA provides more support and guidance than pretty much any other approach to this horrible illness that has ever been tried.

I know that AA can't provide numbers, and even if they could those numbers would be bad. But I spent years and years working with people with severe addictive disorders, including dual diagnosis patients and have a certain level of expertise in this area.

The danger in what you are saying is that you might discourage someone from doing exactly what they need to do at a time when they desperately need to do it.

The religious thing is problematic, I agree, but that is why I find the information in this article very positive..

[longship]

37. I'll stand down on this, cbayer.

But I have a dislike for anecdotal evidence, which is all AA has.

I'll take your word on this as I don't think you would misrepresent it.

Thanks for setting me straight.

[cbayer]

38. I share your dislike for anecdotal evidence, but there is data about programs

that do and do not include 12 step programs. I would say that you would be hard pressed to find a substance abuse specialist that would say that a program that did not include AA/NA had any chance of success.

At any rate, I hope that if you find yourself in a situation where you need to help someone, you will leave all the options open.

One thing AA provides is 24 hour hotlines and people who are always available to intervene and assist.

If someone's life is in danger (and suicide rates among addicts are alarmingly high), I hope that you will not dismiss them.


Best of nights, longship. Stay warm and dry and well fed.

[madrchsod]

31. trading one crutch for another ....

most of the people i`vie encountered over the years traded alcohol for god.they were still addicted. the psychical damage
is gone but the mental goes on.

[cbayer]

33. Are you seriously comparing the personal devastation wreaked by drug and alcohol addiction

to becoming religious?

How many people do you know that have lost their jobs, their homes, their jobs, their life savings, their families or their lives to religion.

That's really outrageous.

[LostOne4Ever]

40. Its my understanding that 12 step program results are not very conclusive

And that many other types of rehabs may provide better results but are much harder to find.

That said, I find myself rather skeptical of them not so much because of their religious aspects; but rather upon the lack of scientific evidence and the theme of one being helpless/powerless. The problem, though, seems to be that alternatives to these programs are few and far between and governmental endorsements for 12 step programs make it seem as if these programs are proven and leads to an increased growth in these programs at the expense of other programs that may provide better results.

I wish there was more scientific data on this. Alcoholism does run in my family (my grandmother had it bad and it killed my 2nd cousin) but I have been able to avoid it ever affecting me (if I am susceptible) by abstaining from alcohol. At most I have 1 (and only 1) frozen strawberry Margarita once every 2-3 months. Never been drunk or had so much as a buzz in my life.

[cbayer]

41. Residential treatment (which almost always includes AA/NA) is

the best predictor of recovery, but recovery rates are bad across the board.

It's a really tough illness to treat.

There really isn't any alternative that has been shown to be more effective that I have ever seen and AA/NA has clearly saved a lot of lives. And I have never seen any evidence of harm.

Having a non-religious 12 step alternative is a very good thing, imo. Whatever works should be available.

There is definitely a genetic component with addictive disorders and you most likely have done yourself a great service by avoiding that risk completely.