Pope Francis appeals for prayers for the Ukraine

[hrmjustin]

ICN. Posted: Sunday, March 2, 2014 11:22 pm

Pope Francis asked for prayers for Ukraine on Sunday, which he said was living through a very sensitive situation. The Holy Father expressed the hope that all parts of the country “will endeavour to overcome misunderstandings and build together the future of the nation.” The Pope also appealed to the international community “to support any initiative for dialogue and harmony.”

He made the call following the recitation of the Angelus in St Peter’s Square. Before the prayer, referring to the day's Mass readings, Pope Francis underlined the need to trust in the Divine Providence of God and also stressed as Christians, we should help our brothers and sisters who are in need.

Looking at society today where people live in precarious conditions such as poverty and the difficulties faced by many as a result of the economic crisis that offends their dignity, the Pope said that in times like these the words of Jesus may seem abstract. But in reality he underlined, these words are more present than ever because they remind us that we cannot serve two masters: God and wealth. As long as everyone tries to accumulate for themselves Pope Francis added, there will never be justice.

The Holy Father went on to say that: “A heart occupied by his own desire is an empty one .. because Jesus has repeatedly warned the rich, a heart possessed by riches leaves little room for faith." The Pope noted that “To make sure that no one lacks bread, water, clothing, housing, work, health, we must all recognize that we are children of the Father who is in heaven, and then brothers and sisters” and we should act accordingly as Christians.

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=24261

[shenmue]

1. Amen

I believe St. Andrew is the patron of Ukraine and/or Russia?

[hrmjustin]

3. Ukraine.

[pkdu]

26. And Scotland! Nt

[skepticscott]

2. Empty platitudes

From the leader of an organization that throughout history has piled up almost uncountable wealth. And that has always tried to use its wealth and influence to make nations do its bidding.

But yeah..he knows a PR op when he sees one.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

4. Why am I not surprised that skepticscott interjects an irrelevant and nasty sneer

Tell me, what can the Pope do to alleviate the situation in Ukraine? Be specific. While you're at it, what are you doing about it? Be specific.

[skepticscott]

5. The pope likely can't do anything to alleviate the situation

Hence my labeling of his statements as empty platitudes, designed to get him attention, but having no other significant effect.

And I don't have the arrogance to assume that I can make the situation in the Ukraine better, either. It's always assumed by the presumptively wise that if people would just "do" something (what that something is, is usually left vague) that we will necessarily and always make things better and not worse. History has shown how wrongheaded that is.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

7. In other words, I called it correctly

You just wanted to make a nasty sneer at him.

After all, you are denouncing a religious leader for calling for prayers from his followers. I know that I am forbidden from calling you a bigot, so I'm not.

[Goblinmonger]

10. Do you think those prayers are ever going to do anything?

Any historical evidence that it will? Most studies indicate either no result of prayers or a negative result.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

11. Do you think that the head of a religion does not believe in the efficacy of prayer?

If so, you are being quite silly.

At worst, prayer can do no harm.

[Goblinmonger]

13. I'm sorry

I didn't mean to ask you what you thought the Pope thought.

Do YOU think the prayers are going to do anything and do you have any instances to back up what I assume is a "yes" answer?

[skepticscott]

40. Tell that to all of the children

who died because their parents prayed for them to get well and did nothing else.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

46. Augustine of Hippo said

"We should pray as if it all depended on God, and we should work as if it all depended on us."

[progressoid]

60. Sounds like Augustine knew that prayers wouldn't do the trick.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

89. No, he's saying that prayer alone will not do the trick

Last edited Thu Mar 6, 2014, 09:59 AM - Edit history (1)

I should remind you of the old joke about Mrs. Murphy and the flood.

A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately. Mrs. Murphy, a faithful Christian, heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to herself, "I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a miracle to save me."

The neighbors came by her house and said, "We're leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!" But Mrs. Murphy declined. "I have faith that God will save me."

As she stood on the porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called , "Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!" But she again said, "No thanks, God will save me."

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into the living room and she had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw her at the window. "We will come up and rescue you!" they shouted. But she refused, waving them off saying, "Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!"

The flood waters rose higher and higher and Mrs. Murphy had to climb up onto the roof.

A helicopter spotted her and dropped a rope ladder. "Climb the ladder and we will take you to safety!" But she still refused, "No thank you! God will save me!"

Shortly after, the floodwaters swept Mrs. Murphy away and she drowned.

So she goes to Heaven, stands before God and is pissed! "I put all of my faith in you. Why didn't you come and save me?"

And God looked puzzled, saying, "I sent you a warning. I sent you a car. I sent you a canoe. I sent you a motorboat. I sent you a helicopter. What more do you want?"

[progressoid]

94. Here's how I heard that "joke".

A terrible storm came into a town and local officials sent out an emergency warning that the riverbanks would soon overflow and flood the nearby homes. They ordered everyone in the town to evacuate immediately. Mrs. Murphy, a faithful Christian, heard the warning and decided to stay, saying to herself, "I will trust God and if I am in danger, then God will send a miracle to save me."

The neighbors came by her house and said, "We're leaving and there is room for you in our car, please come with us!" But Mrs. Murphy declined. "I have faith that God will save me."

As she stood on the porch watching the water rise up the steps, a man in a canoe paddled by and called , "Hurry and come into my canoe, the waters are rising quickly!" But she again said, "No thanks, God will save me."

The floodwaters rose higher pouring water into the living room and she had to retreat to the second floor. A police motorboat came by and saw her at the window. "We will come up and rescue you!" they shouted. But she refused, waving them off saying, "Use your time to save someone else! I have faith that God will save me!"

The flood waters rose higher and higher and Mrs. Murphy had to climb up onto the roof.

A helicopter spotted her and dropped a rope ladder. "Climb the ladder and we will take you to safety!" But she still refused, "No thank you! God will save me!"

Shortly after, the floodwaters swept Mrs. Murphy away and she drowned.

The end.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

102. My version of it had a point relevant to the topic

Yours did not.

[Dorian Gray]

87. While I agree that those parents

need to be held accountable (and it is a great evil to allow children to suffer for the belief of the parents), I doubt that many of them are Roman Catholics. There is nothing in our theology that prevents medical intervention.

[skepticscott]

12. I'm accusing a religious leader of hypocrisy for how he speaks of wealth

And pointing out that his calls for prayers don't merit any praise for him, given how effective they ever are.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

24. No, he is not being hypocritical.

You dislike him, simply because he is a believer, as you apparently dislike all believers because they are believers.

Anyway, someone as fundamentally dishonest as you should not be whinging about anyone else's hypocrisy.

[trotsky]

27. Keep those insults coming, FA.

Keep showing us what a true Christian acts like. You rock.

[rug]

28. Oh, you're doing a fine job all by yourself, trotsky.

You just keep sitting there in the bleachers tossing shit bombs whenever the level of disruption falls below the level you seek.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

35. One of the main things a Christian is obliged to do is tell the truth

And calling skepticscott dishonest is not an insult, it is a statement of demonstrated fact. He accused me of being a liar when I said he was an unbeliever. I was responding to his statement in http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218114774#post24

So yeah, we're entirely justified in asking for evidence to back up their claims of the existence of a god.

Note the word "we". Clearly, he is at least giving the strong implication that he does not believe in God, or else that sentence simply does not make sense. At worst, I might be accused of misconstruing what he said, but there is nothing to support his accusation that I lied.

[shenmue]

51. Uh, calling people fucking imbeciles is a great way to win people to your cause

If you just like to be a shit-disturber for its own sake, say so. Don't try and hide behind the idea of being a better person than someone else. Because you're not.

[Goblinmonger]

52. You could learn a little

about the history of FA in this forum before you make you final judgement.

And he didn't say "fucking imbeciles." Just "imbeciles."

[Leontius]

42. Truth is not an insult.

[trotsky]

45. Speaking of examples of good Christians...

[skepticscott]

30. I dislike him because he champions bigotry

He leads a sexist, homophobic, bigoted organization, as all progressives worthy of the name recognize, and he supports those bigoted and disgraceful doctrines wholeheartedly, and welcomes and supports their imposition on everyone as law.

I know you're fine with all that and think he's wonderful, but that's just you.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

36. The actual hypocrite is you, skepticscott

Given your blatant bigotry against religion.

Are you going to go whinging to the moderators because I called you a bigot? If so, all I can say is that you practice the logical fallacy of Special Pleading -- it's OK when you do it, it's bad when other people do it.

[skepticscott]

37. I'm not even going to go whining to the moderators

That's your bag, as we've seen.

And you have yet to point to a single post of mine that shows either bigotry or hypocrisy. Calling out bigotry among the religious is not bigotry, except to right wing fundamentalists, and even if it were, I'd still point out sexism and homophobia where it's preached and practiced. And hypocrisy consists in saying one thing and believing or practicing another. You have many examples of me doing that, I suppose?

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

48. I have exactly ONCE complained about a post directed at me.

That was when someone called me a "drooling mouthed, bigoted moron". So take your "That's your bag" and shove it.

I'm sorry your reading ability is so poor. It should be obvious that calling the Pope a hy7pocrite and a bigot is nothing more than hypocritical bigotry on your part. It's somewhat funny -- I could actually make your case better than you can. That's because I am extremely familiar with the history of Christianity in general and the Roman Catholic Church in particular. I have, in fact, posted repeatedly on some of what I see wrong with the Catholic Church, for example, at http://www.democraticunderground.com/1221591 (note: I wrote that during the papacy of Benedict XVI, who was then "the current Pope", with "the previous Pope" being John Paul II).

You, on the other hand, just whinge.

[EvilAL]

97. What is funny is that

even though he can't do anything other than pray for the people, if the situation gets resolved without too much carnage he'll say that the prayers either helped or were the reason it was resolved.

[cbayer]

6. While I don't think prayers will hurt, they need a whole lot more than that.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

8. Calling for prayers is just about all the Pope can do. n/t

[cbayer]

9. I know and glad to know he is shining some light on it.

[Dorian Gray]

88. They do.

It's true. I like to think that calling for prayers is also acknowledging the problems and helping make the world aware of the problems. More international awareness puts Russia under a microscope. That puts pressure on them to act less aggressively (in theory).

His calling attention to the matter can't hurt.

[Goblinmonger]

14. A little juxtaposition for your Monday consideration

The Pope's words:

But in reality he underlined, these words are more present than ever because they remind us that we cannot serve two masters: God and wealth. As long as everyone tries to accumulate for themselves Pope Francis added, there will never be justice.

The Pope chillin' in his crib with his friends:



So if it were Mitt Romney making the quotation above would we all be gushing over him and his concern for the poor?

[hrmjustin]

15. You understand that it is a church building?

[Goblinmonger]

16. You're right. His place is pretty austere

[hrmjustin]

17. No he does not live there either.

[Goblinmonger]

18. Please, then

show me a picture of the squalor he lives in. And show me how where he lives doesn't feed exactly in to what he said in the OP.

And for the record, he does live in Vatican City where both of those pictures were taken. That's the wealth the RCC has amassed.

[hrmjustin]

19. This is the building and I believe this is his rooms now.

[rug]

20. Wretched excess!

There's probably four-ply toilet paper in his bathroom.

[hrmjustin]

21. Oh no! He has shiny floors!

[rug]

22. !

[goldent]

29. Indoor plumbing even?

The nerve!

[okasha]

32. And a bed!

He should be sleeping on the floor on a tattered and motheaten old quilt, just like his critics in this group do.

[Goblinmonger]

23. OK, fine.

Apparently we are pretending that the RCC is not sitting on a shit load of wealth and that the pope, while talking about the evils of accumulating wealth, doesn't live in lavish wealth himself.

Carry on, then.

[hrmjustin]

25. Um I never said that the RCC has no wealth.

[skepticscott]

31. Which is why I accused him

of hypocrisy. Some posters here are too clueless and brainwashed to comprehend why he's guilty.

[Cleita]

101. As the member of the Jesuits he took a vow of poverty. That means he

can own very little, basically just what he needs. The wealth of the Church as an institution is not his or any Popes for that matter although they can have individual wealth. This one cannot because of his vow of poverty. Yet, I see this lie perpetuated here over and over.

[okasha]

33. Oh, please.

He has a small bedroom and a slightly larger study. That looks like "lavish wealth" to you?

Carry on, yourself. Keep all that righteous indignation going strong.

[Goblinmonger]

34. So we are ignoring Vatican City?

At a time when Pope Francis is talking about not being able to follow both God and money and says that the accumulation of wealt is a bad thing, we are going to just give him a pass on the insane amount of wealth the RCC has accumulated.

You must be dizzy from how much you have to spin this one to make it look like he's not a hypocrite here.

[okasha]

43. So you think all of Vatican City

constitutes Francis' personal wealth?

Aaaaalllllllrighty, then. Tell us again about your Catholic high school--and how much of it you slept through.

[Goblinmonger]

44. When did I say that?

I thought it was pretty clear that I was saying it was hypocritical of a guy that is the head of a wealth accumulating organization to say that wealth accumulation is a bad thing.

But your strawman makes me look silly so I'm sure you'll stick with that.

[okasha]

80. See your posts 14 and 16.

You make you look silly. If you weren't so intent on toeing the party line, you might trip yourself up less often.

[Goblinmonger]

90. You claimed I said the Vatican City was the Pope's personal property

My post 14 says the following:

The Pope chillin' in his crib with his friends:

Don't say it's his personal property in that post. Are you claiming he doesn't live in and have control over Vatican City which contains the church in the picture?

My post 16 says the following:

You're right. His place is pretty austere

Again, don't say it is his personal property. It's "his place." That's pretty accurate. Do you think he needs to phone ahead and make reservations to look out that window or do you think he can just go there? He's the fucking Pope. That's his place.

So I await your apology for your lies about me saying the Vatican City was the Pope's personal property. I would also like an acknowledgment that when he spoke as the head of a church telling people that accumulation of wealth was the root of many problems that he was being a hypocrite because his organization has accumulated a shitload of wealth. I'm sure I will get neither.

[okasha]

98. What do you think "his" and "has" mean,

other than ownership?

Your whole complaint on the wealth of the Church implies that the Pope could dispose of it at will. That constitutes power equivalent to ownership--and it's a power he doesn't have.

"Lies about you?" Oh, you poor thing. You're sounding more and more like one of your colleagues.

[Goblinmonger]

99. Is it not his place?

Does he not live there? Is he not the CEO on 'roids of that organization?

He could start the process to sell off their evil accumulation of wealth and use the money to help the poor and oppressed. Yes, he could do that. He does have that power.

[Act_of_Reparation]

49. No, it constitutes but a fraction of the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church...

...of which Papa Frank is the uncontested, second-to-none, infallible, supreme fucking leader.

Please proceed.

[yeoman6987]

86. Best Pope ever

Good for the Pope bringing attention to Ukraine especially on Ash Wednesday. An inspiration to all.

[Goblinmonger]

91. How is he different from the last pope.

I mean, yeah, he has better PR and seems like he's less of an asshole in public, but how is his stance on anything different from the last guy. Or last guys. It's not. But, hey, keep hope alive.

[yeoman6987]

92. seems like he's less of an asshole in public,

That alone is refreshing. I was a bit over the top with my previous post. Just being funny. However, I do think this Pope at least is trying to bring people together. Heck just yesterday he said that Civil Unions would not be a problem. I mean he is changing even faster than President Obama.....not really, but after civil unions comes marriage. The only shame in all of this is that he is around 78. I wish he was 20 years younger because I think we would see a very different Catholic Church. I am Catholic and so far I really like what he is saying and yes results are needed as well.

[Goblinmonger]

93. I'll give you that.

I wish he didn't hate Liberation Theology and didn't fight it so hard in Argentina. Personally, I think the civil unions thing is good but feels like smoke and mirrors because in the same statement he reaffirmed that marriage is between a man and woman which indicate, to me anyway, that he isn't planning on changing the church stance at all. It's still a sin and it won't be a sacrament same-sex couples will ever get. He just said it was OK for governments to consider it.

The most interesting part in that interview was the birth control issue. That seemed the closest to being a statement that the church may actually budge a little bit on it. I doubt that it will be a "hey, go nuts and use birth control all you want" but this issue, unlike gay marriage, seems like an issue that would change over time.

I was raised in a very observant, strict Catholic house. Went to high school at a Catholic Seminary and considered the priesthood very seriously during high school. Have many close friends that are priest both for a diocese and for orders. My religious views have come very far since then, but I still look very fondly at that time of my life and would not change a thing.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Hope that doesn't make it worse.

http://www.project-reason.org/archive/item/prayers_dont_help_heart_surgery_patients_some_fare_worse_when_prayed_for/

Just in case, let's not tell the Ukraine, ok?

[cbayer]

39. There is contradictory data about this whole prayer/surgical patient thing, and

I think there are just too many variables for it to be taken as conclusive.

At best, I think it doesn't hurt but probably doesn't help.

Anyway, your post is funny, I will give you that.

[hrmjustin]

47. Ukraine would love to know.

[Act_of_Reparation]

50. Would they?

How is it you know this?

[hrmjustin]

54. The church is a big part of that nations life.

[Act_of_Reparation]

57. No, it isn't

Only 5.9% of Ukrainians are Catholic. More than 60% are non-religious or don't care enough to belong to a church.

[hrmjustin]

58. Wow that is news to me.

[cbayer]

59. That may be in large part to an extensive recent history of serious persecution for being religious.

Hard to know where people actually stand under those conditions.

[Act_of_Reparation]

61. I don't understand where you're trying to go with this

Let's assume these numbers -- taken 18 years after Glasnost and Perestroika -- are not wholly representative of the Ukrainian people. Should we assume they want the prayers of a religious institution which has remained largely irrelevant for the entirety of their nation's history? That they want prayers at all?

For the record, I understand the well-meaning intent behind offering people prayers, but if Russian troops ever invade Detroit, everyone can keep their prayers. Send lawyers, guns, and money.

[cbayer]

62. All I am saying is that it went from a very religious country to a very non-religious

country, primarily due to government imposed sanctions and persecution.

That would make it difficult to ascertain how accurate recent numbers might be concerning religiosity.

The numbers you quote may be entirely accurate or may still reflect events from the relatively recent past.

They are also 8 years old and it would be interesting to see if there has been a change or if there are any trends.

There is also a 2003 study by the same group that found that 75% of Ukrainians believe in god, so that 62.5% who report being nonreligious or not belonging to a specific church may be mostly in the second category.

They may not want or benefit from prayers, but they certainly could benefit from more people paying attention, which this might encourage.

[Act_of_Reparation]

67. I would argue that is something of an oversimplification

Yes, Soviet-era policies towards religion were repressive, but it is my understanding Ukraine got off relatively easy, especially in the latter half of the 20th century. The Russian Orthodox church, to which Ukraine has historically belonged, was the most tolerated religion in the USSR, and Ukraine saw fewer churches closed than any other region. While I wouldn't argue Ukrainian believers had it easy, I would argue they had it easier than other religious groups which have rebounded since the end of the Cold War.

And there are other factors I think would lead to an overall downturn in Ukrainian religiosity; first and foremost the politicization of the Russian Orthodox church in that country. The two most populous sects, those following either the Russian of Kievan Patriarchs, are split across party lines. In a country where faith in the resident political parties is measurably low, it would be easy to understand if a sizable portion of the population would be ill-inclined to hear political endorsements from the pulpit.

There's also the matter of at least half of the country wanting to move in a more Eurocentric direction. If Ukrainians look up to or are otherwise trying to emulate their western European neighbors, then their lack of religiosity would likewise make a great deal of sense.

Then, there's the simple cynicism that invariably accompanies a corrupt society. With both branches of the Orthodoxy being in bed with the politicians, it is easy to see the religion as being part of the problem.

I don't think there's enough evidence to say one way or the other how Ukraine wound up where it is, religiously.

At any rate, the point I was trying to make to hrmjustin isn't that prayer would necessarily go unappreciated, or is universally worthless (I am willing to concede that in an indirect, raising awareness kind of sense, it may or may not be somewhat beneficial), but that not everyone wants to hear that kind of thing, least of all when the chips are down. One should never assume the old "I'll pray for you" line will be well-received, and, just as a matter of courtesy, one should be mindful of that.

[Warren Stupidity]

66. supprression of christianity stopped almost entirely at the start of WWII.

That was more than 70 years ago. So your claim here is that the 20 or so years of suppression starting 90 years ago accounts for the vast lack of religiosity of the region. Interesting claim.

[rug]

64. Where did you get that?

Religions: Ukrainian Orthodox - Kyiv Patriarchate 50.4%, Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 26.1%, Ukrainian Greek Catholic 8%, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox 7.2%, Roman Catholic 2.2%, Protestant 2.2%, Jewish 0.6%, other 3.2% (2006 est.)

Definition: This entry is an ordered listing of religions by adherents starting with the largest group and sometimes includes the percent of total population.

Source: CIA World Factbook - Unless otherwise noted, information in this page is accurate as of December 6, 2013

http://www.indexmundi.com/ukraine/religions.html

[mr blur]

53. Well, that will make some people feel much better about doing nothing.

I'm sure nothing influences Putin more than a load of people talking to themselves. Still, if it makes you feel you're helping...

[hrmjustin]

55. We don't know that he is doing nothing.

The pope could be trying diplomacy.

[cbayer]

56. The pope shining light on the situation is doing something.

Whether prayer actually has an effect or not is questionable, but asking people to pay attention and to learn more about the situation is certainly a positive thing, don't you think?

What are any of us doing? Most people are just ignoring the whole thing. At least those that pray are giving it some thought.

[trotsky]

63. "asking people to pay attention and to learn more about the situation is certainly a positive thing"

It certainly is. So let's ask them to pay attention and learn more about the situation, instead of asking them to pray for Ukraine. Prayer doesn't necessarily require the supplicant to learn a damn thing about the situation.

[hrmjustin]

65. Just because you don't think prayer does noyhing doesn mean it does nothing.

[trotsky]

70. And just because you think it does something doesn't mean it does, either. n/t

[hrmjustin]

71. Fair point but I think it is doing something.

Last edited Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:14 AM - Edit history (1)

[trotsky]

72. I personally think the diplomacy effort by Secretary Kerry...

is doing, and will do, far more.

[hrmjustin]

73. Yes but most of us are not in the position to do that level of work.

So the rest of us can do other positive things such as prayer.

[trotsky]

74. Whether they are "positive" is unproven.

The only evidence we have suggests that intercessory prayer is neutral at best, and detrimental at worst (if the people who are being prayed for know it).

[hrmjustin]

75. I don't believe it is harmful. And please quoting that study because I don't care what it says.

[trotsky]

76. Yes, I am aware that facts are irrelevant to religious belief.

Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, and their ilk prove that on a daily basis.

Just as you and your beliefs are unaffected by evidence, so are theirs.

[hrmjustin]

77. That study is no fact and don't put me in the same sentence with them please.

[trotsky]

78. Then don't dismiss evidence so willfully as they do.

"If science proves some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change." -The Dalai Lama

Despite my reservations about the Dalai Lama, I think many religious believers would really benefit from heeding that quote and the advice therein. By reserving the right to deny any evidence that contradicts your beliefs, you empower other believers to dismiss evidence they don't like either.

[hrmjustin]

79. I and other believers will not stop praying for people because if one study.

Sorry won't happen.

[trotsky]

81. Nor will Fred Phelps stop hating gays...

despite the studies showing homosexuality's link to genetics.

I pray one day you understand how those things are connected.

[hrmjustin]

82. My praying for others is connected to phelps bigotry.

[trotsky]

83. If you reserve the right to reject any evidence that contradicts your beliefs,

then why can't he do the same?

[hrmjustin]

84. And Jesus wept!

[rug]

68. Learning about the situation itself does nothing.

Nor does it express concern for the human beings in that situation.

[okasha]

85. In politics, this is called jawboning.

He's using the power of his office to call attention to the precarious position of Ukraine and its people. There's likely diplomacy going on behind the scenes. No one except Putin wants a reprise of Hungary abd Czechoslovakia.

[cbayer]

95. But the pope did it, so it must be bad.

[trotsky]

96. Oh, of course, that's EXACTLY what others are saying.

Way to keep that level of discourse high, cbayer.

[okasha]

100. And if the tanks do roll in,

it will be totally his fault because he didn't sell off the Apollo Belvedere to some gazillionaire to park by his swimming pool.

[hrmjustin]

69. Wow the pope got people talking.