FFRF to Walker: Delete religious tweet

[Goblinmonger]

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker is on the receiving end of a letter of complaint from the Freedom From Religion Foundation in Madison for a religious tweet on his official Facebook and Twitter accounts.

On Sunday, March 16, either Walker or someone empowered to posted the following: "Philippians 4:13" (see screen shots), a bible verse which says, "I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."

FFRF, a state-church watchdog with 20,000 members nationwide and about 1,300 in Wisconsin, reminded Walker in a March 18 letter that it's "improper for a state employee, much less for the chief executive officer of the state, to use the machinery of the state of Wisconsin to promote personal religious views."

The letter cites court cases that prohibit government officials from endorsing religion over nonreligion. If a department head or ordinary employee were to use state resources to promote personal beliefs, they would most certainly be admonished.

- See more at: http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/20275-ffrf-to-walker-delete-religious-tweet#sthash.PAw1eQq8.dpuf

I'm proud to be an FFRF member. I'm glad someone is fighting attempts to creep theocracy forward.

[rug]

1. "the utterance of a theocratic dictator"?

The FFRF press release you posted either misunderstands theocracy or it misunderstands hyperbole.

[trotsky]

2. Yes, I'm sure there are some even on DU who would attack the FFRF rather than...

the right-wing theocrat. "There are more important battles to fight." "This just makes atheists look bad." "This will cost us votes." Etc. We've heard them all. Merely because the FFRF is out there defending the wall of separation. Thank god they are.

[Goblinmonger]

19. Well it only took 18 responses.

Or 1, but that one is not being shown to me due to ignore so I can only imagine.

[hrmjustin]

3. It's election year and this is a why he is doing this.

He has the right to do it but he is doing it for his base.

[trotsky]

4. He has the right to use government resources to promote religion? n/t

[hrmjustin]

5. Is the twitter feed a government resource?

Who is it run by?

[trotsky]

6. Yeah, it's the OFFICIAL account of the governor.

I think it's a safe assumption it gets updated by someone funded by state tax dollars, using state-purchased computers, Internet service, etc. I can't believe this is even a question.

[hrmjustin]

9. It is a question because I don't have the answer.

I do not like him doing it but the question remains who controls it. If the goverment sets it up then I would say he should delete it. If he maintajins it and just calls it official then I say he has the right to keeo it.

[Goblinmonger]

10. So you don't believe the FFRF

when they say in the press release that it is the official Twitter account and governmental resources are used for the account?

[hrmjustin]

11. I did not say I do not believe them.

[skepticscott]

12. Why would you ask the question you did in post 5, then?

Since the answer was given in the article. Either you didn't bother to read the article, and were hoping no one else did, either, or you thought the FFRF was lying. Which was it?

[LiberalAndProud]

7. It's the official gubernatorial account.

State resources.

[struggle4progress]

20. What does that mean? Are they hosted on servers owned by Wisconsin?

Or does it just mean that Twitter and Facebook are willing to allow some "official gubernatorial" accounts on Twitter and Facebook servers?

[LiberalAndProud]

21. Official as in reflecting the views of an elected official in his official capacity.

The question for me is, does quoting a Bible verse promote religion?

"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me."

I'd really rather he self delete.

[Goblinmonger]

8. It's the official account of the governor.

Not his personal account. From what I remember, he has a staffer do it because he had embarrassing grammar errors when he was doing the tweets. But it's done by a government worker for the Gov.

He can't do that. He's advocating religion over non-religion and a specific religion.

[longship]

13. Some would disagree with you on this.

Including me. The religious test clause of Article VI, and the First Amendment establishment clause would seem to be counter to using ones office in government to promote personal religious beliefs.

I find these escapades to be very divisive to those who do not believe like the person who is witnessing for their particular religion. And the Republicans are always doing this. The Democrats have been doing it, too, but I suspect because the GOP has been doing it for so long.

[hrmjustin]

14. It depends on who maintains the twitter account.

[longship]

15. Well, I don't much care what politicos do on their personal accounts.

But their government assets are part mine, too. So I have a say.

[hrmjustin]

16. I agree with you. My question here is technical.

[progressoid]

17. Unfortunately,

the embrace of religion for political gain isn't limited to the right.

[struggle4progress]

18. IMO he's simply and shamelessly pandering in hopes of political gain, and I'd much rather

that nobody behaved in such fashion, here in part because government seems to me a secular function

That said, I can't see that FFRF has anything resembling a genuine legal complaint here: any state resources, actually expended in a twitter post, cannot total more than a fraction of a cent, if that; the twitter and facebook posts will be hosted on the twitter and facebook servers, not on Wisconsin state machinery; proving that he actually used state equipment to make the post requires accessing records to show he didn't use his own personal computer or cellphone to make the post; the governor doesn't lose his right to express his personal views, just by virtue of being elected; the governor isn't an hourly employee, punching a time card, so no one can claim he stole 20 seconds of a taxpayer-funded workday; there's no evident coercive element here, so it's difficult to see any definite harm to anyone; and if voters dislike this from him, they are free to vote him out this fall

[LiberalAndProud]

23. Did the group already threaten legal action.

I thought it was a request that he delete the Bible reference. They cited legal precedent, but I doubt they would take it to court.

You and I agree. I much rather our representatives didn't do this kind of stuff. I'd say that even if Walker had tweeted "There is no God."

[struggle4progress]

25. Their letter cites 1989 Allegheny v ACLU and 2000 Santa Fe ISD v Doe

The first barred creche and menorah displays on the Allegheny County Courthouse staircase; the second, prayers at football games by Santa Fe High's elected student council chaplain

I think both cases were properly decided, the practices being enjoined on establishment grounds. Santa Fe ISD may have introduced additional coercive element by improperly attempting to discover the identity or identities of the Doe or Does involved

I should expect the situation to be entirely less clear regarding statements of politicians regarding their own views: I doubt (say) that the Court would prevent a Governor from religious displays in an official residence maintained by the state or on the Governor's desk in a state office, or prevent a Governor from mentioning personal religious beliefs in welcoming remarks at a high school event, though I would personally regard the latter as very bad taste at best

Whether a court were to find establishment clause issues, including possible coercion, involved in a personal message hosted on an "official" state Facebook or Twitter page, might sensitively depend on a number of particular details: if (for example) Goblinmonger is correct in #8 that the message was not posted by the Governor himself but rather by a staffer, that moves the matter closer to an establishment violation; similarly, if (say) the Twitter stream is an important source of information for state employees, the tweet moves closer to an establishment violation. But if it's just the Governor expressing an opinion, it's merely gauche

I happen to agree pretty well with this PFAW page -- but there's sometimes an advantage to not giving the yahoos publicity if the issue is too small to be worth the fight

[LiberalAndProud]

26. What would be the advantage in remaining silent?

Do you think you might feel differently if he had quoted Ephesians 5:23 instead?

[struggle4progress]

30. There are lots of reasons to oppose Walker, and I hope he goes down in flames in November

The important issues have to do with things like protecting the working class in Wisconsin and whether or not there's going to be a social safety net, not with whether he spent twenty seconds tweeting something to prove to somebody or other his religious bonafides

How many people actually follow "the Wisconsin governor's official Twitter site"? If I walk around, nobody's saying, Whoa! I gotta get back online to see what Walker's tweeting! As long as there's no fuggin controversy about it, hardly anybody knows he tweeted it. Cranking up the controversy gives Walker free publicity -- and doesn't accomplish much else

Politics is something like warfare, conducted by other means

So there's Scott Walker, waving a red flag at those of us who'd prefer to see discussions about important governance issues and hoping for a reaction

He's not clueless as a politician, and in his judgment he's found a well-defended narrow pass that can't be taken

Instead of trying to educate the public about the important issues raised by Walker's administration, we could try to storm that pass -- but Walker and friends would merely play it to their low-info supporters as "persecution of Christians" and use it to mobilize their own base

But that narrow pass has no strategic value for us whatsoever: the best way, to keep Walker from pulling such stunts, is simply to vote him out of office; IMO any other means, of dislodging him from that narrow pass, would take years rather than months, and the energy spent, doing that, is energy that could better have been spent defeating him in November

[LiberalAndProud]

31. I agree with everything you said about Walker.

Still, I tend to think leaving troublesome things in dark corners may not be the best course of action. Mobilizing the persecuted Christian base hasn't been a problem for these folks. If there is no controversy, there is always the War on Christmas.

Since we both seem to agree that this would have been better left untweeted from the governor's office, I think it's a good thing that somebody mentioned it to the governor.

[struggle4progress]

34. On examination, it looks very much like a political stream, not like a state government stream

Of course, if he's using state funds for this partisan organizing, it's a really big crime story --- but I doubt he's that dumb

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[Goblinmonger]

36. That's the wrong Twitter feed

You are pulling things from @ScottWalker which is his personal feed. The one the FFRF is discussing is @GovWalker which is his official feed.

Is that really that hard for someone who does as much online searching as you. In case you are still confused, pay close attention to the bios for each feed. It's pretty clear that the @GovWalker is the official one and the one that FFRF is dealing with.

[struggle4progress]

38. Fair enough. Exactly what state resources go into @GovWalker?

[trotsky]

47. It is interesting that you've conceded that the FFRF is correct,

but that you don't think "enough" tax dollars are spent on this twitter feed to make it a serious violation of church-state separation. What's your dollar amount cutoff, s4p? When do you think it's worth it to defend the wall?

[struggle4progress]

49. It's a Twitter stream. Are ANY state resources involved?

[trotsky]

50. Who updates the feed?

Do they take a government salary?

Are they paid for the time they update the feed?

This is not complicated. But EVEN IF public funding wasn't directly used, there are still problems. As there have been with privately donated 10 Commandments plaques that get posted on a government building. Prayers announced over school PA systems at football games are unconstitutional. Even if the person saying them isn't a government employee. SHOCKING, isn't it?

I feel stupid for trying to explain this to you though, since you've got your distraction o' the day and somehow have decided to defend Scott Walker instead of a Constitutional principle.

[hrmjustin]

51. Who set up this account? Walker or the state?

[trotsky]

52. It says it's the OFFICIAL Twitter account of the governor of Wisconsin.

It links to the website http://walker.wi.gov, which is the page for the Office of the Governor of Wisconsin.

What do you think?

It's sad that on a progressive website, people are falling over themselves trying to make an excuse for this. If it were a Democrat that did it, I could begin to understand why the criticism would be unwelcome. But it's a Republican, and one of the worst ones out there right now. For crying out loud.

[hrmjustin]

53. my question is weather it is goverment because then their could be a lawsuit.

If he said it up then he can do it.

This has noting to do with party or progressive.

[trotsky]

54. It has already been pointed out on this thread...

that Scott Walker has a separate personal Twitter account. This one is the OFFICIAL account for him as Governor of Wisconsin. EVEN IF there were zero government tax dollars going to maintain it, it conveys government endorsement of a particular religion. And that, the courts have said, is wrong.

[hrmjustin]

55. If it was his personsl one I would say he has his rights to do it.

Since this is a goverment one as you said it should be deleted.

[struggle4progress]

56. That's an excellent question, so I'll bite: who DOES update the feed?

[trotsky]

59. Since it is the OFFICIAL feed of the Governor of Wisconsin,

with links to the actual government webpages, it would appear to be a government employee. Do you have any evidence otherwise?

[struggle4progress]

61. I have no idea what "Official Twitter Account of the 45th Governor of the State of Wisconsin" means

It might just mean nothing more than that Scott Walker calls this particular Twitter stream that

[struggle4progress]

62. Seems to me just about anyone can link to a government webpage

So that fact alone signifies nothing that I can see

[struggle4progress]

63. Our best guess, about who actually posted the tweet in question, should be Walker himself

The date/time seems to be around 10A on Sunday 16 March

[trotsky]

64. Well, nice try once again, but I'm done with your distraction.

You can defend Walker and his promotion of religion using state resources all you want. Good luck!

[LiberalAndProud]

40. I understand that in greater scope of the universe, we are picking nits.

There would have been no controversy on his personal account. There has been a request for a self delete on his official account. I wonder if the request had been made from a Jewish congregation rather than the FFRF, if the attitude would be quite so dismissive. Possibly so, because it's not the most calamitous issue we face regarding the Walker administration.

[struggle4progress]

42. OK. Walker has at least two Twitter feeds. One is related to partisan politics; for the other,

he calls himself Governor Walker

What, precisely, is the difference between how these two feeds have been set up, and exactly what state resources are involved?

If any state resources are involved in the first, there's probably crime involved, so it's likely no state resources are involved in the partisan feed

If no state resources are involved in one feed, it's possible no state resources are involved in the second

Unless state resources are somehow involved, complaints about violation of the establishment clause are vacuous

I suspect it's a political loser to make much noise about these 16 characters, but what's the strongest case that can be made here?

[LiberalAndProud]

44. I think the strongest case that can be made is this request for delete.

I'd be hard pressed to assert that the establishment clause has been breached, even if a staffer posted the reference from a state owned tablet. If it's egregious behavior to remind our elected officials that some of their constituents are not Christian, so be it. I'll support that egregious behavior.

I'm not extremely pleased with the legal posturing taken in the letter, but I get why the group may have chosen that tactic.

[struggle4progress]

45. I don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging state officials to remember

that they serve the whole state and that there are many citizens who don't share their religious views

[LiberalAndProud]

46. :) Then we agree. That's a good thing.

Thanks for this exchange, s4p. I truly appreciate.

[Goblinmonger]

32. Nearly 80K follow his official Twitter feed.

Yeah, it would be great to vote him out of office. That's not as easy as you might think.

And, more importantly, that isn't why the FFRF exists. It exists to protect the 1st Amendment. That's why I give them money each year--not to defeat Walker in the next election. They are doing the job they have made it clear they want to do and they are funded to do.

And I find it somewhat offensive that we shouldn't fight 1st Amendment battles because the assholes that are being called out might use it as a "persecution of Christians" battle cry. If what he did is wrong, then he should be opposed by those groups that exist to oppose that kind of action.

[struggle4progress]

33. I certainly agree that violations of the establishment clause should be fought

Our notions about what constitutes such violation, about the true nature of political fights, differs

[struggle4progress]

35. See my #34. It looks like this whole thread is a huge waste of time, and FFRF is blowing smoke

out of its ass again, costing us all credibility

[Goblinmonger]

37. See my #36. It looks like you don't know what the fuck you are talking about

and are posting the wrong feed. Any credibility lost from #34 is yours and yours alone.

[struggle4progress]

39. Could be. Exactly what state resources go into @GovWalker?

[Goblinmonger]

41. It's his official page.

It's the electronic version of sending it on State letterhead. All the FFRF wants is for him to delete the tweet. That's it.

How hard would it be for you to say "Yeah, good point FFRF. That was pretty shitty of the Governor. Thanks for catching it and calling him on it"? Instead you act like they are filing a lawsuit in federal court over this rather than them just sending him a letter and putting a press release out.

[struggle4progress]

43. Exactly what state resources go into @GovWalker?

[goldent]

22. The FFRF should be celebrating

if they have the PR resources to go after problems of this magnitude.

[Goblinmonger]

24. Sending a letter to the Governor

(the state capital is about 2 blocks from their offices) and issuing a press release takes a lot of PR resources?

So at what point do we fight creeping theocracy? At what point do we tell one of the darlings of the Tea Party (his name keeps getting tossed around as a VP and Pres candidate by the Tea Party) that this religious bullshit is out of order? Personally, I think it is good to start right when he does bullshit like this rather than later so that he can't point to this one and say "See, it was OK then" just like many do now with the "under God" in the pledge when 1st Amendment issues come up.

[goldent]

28. yeah, I think it was a fair amount of resources to do this

and my main point is they chose this presumably "egregious act" over all of the little ones. I guess I don't see creeping theocracy in the way you do - I think there was more religion in government in past years.

[trotsky]

48. Yep, I guess since it's always been there, it's not worth fighting.

Just sit back and accept it. I mean, it's only the Constitution. Just a piece of paper, really. FFRF is clearly the bad guy here.

[goldent]

57. I don't think the FFRF are the baddies

I just think they sometimes go off tilting at windmills.

[trotsky]

60. I think separation of church and state is worth fighting for.

And the little violations are used to justify the larger ones.

I understand you disagree.

[hrmjustin]

58. No one is saying their bad.

[rug]

27. They will fight theocracy down to their last press release.

[hrmjustin]

29. .

[Goblinmonger]

65. So what if he had tweeted "Leviticus 18:22"?

How about "1 Corinthians 11: 9"?

Either of those actually get a rise from some of you that are defending Walker?

The contortions on this page to support this Governor in his use of the official Twitter feed of the Governor to post New Testament Bible verses is just ridiculous.

[struggle4progress]

66. Wed, Thu, and Fri updates for those following this case

... Calls to Walker’s press office for comment were not returned.
The Bible Verse That Could Land Scott Walker in a Major Battle With Atheists
Mar. 19, 2014 3:13pm Billy Hallowell

... As of Thursday, the tweet remained posted. Walker’s office did not respond to a request for comment ...
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker slammed for tweeting Bible verse from official account
BY Leslie Larson
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Thursday, March 20, 2014, 9:08 AM

... As of Friday morning, the tweet was still on Walker's Twitter page.
Atheist group asks Wis. Gov. Scott Walker to remove religious tweet
By Danielle Haynes | March. 21, 2014 at 8:22 AM