California man washed out to sea during baptism (BBC)

[eppur_se_muova]

A California man remains missing a day after he was swept out to sea during an ocean baptism.

Benito Flores, 43, was among several people helping his cousin, Pastor Maurigro Cervantes, baptise a man near the Guadalupe Dunes Preserve north of Santa Barbara.

Two others were swept out by a huge wave but were able to swim to shore.

The US Coast Guard says the search for Mr Flores was called off at midnight on Sunday.

The baptism was just finishing up at 10:00 local time (17:00 GMT) on Sunday when the church members were hit by the wave.
***
more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26823842




All join in now: "Nearer, my God, to thee ..."

[enki23]

1. Do not anger Poseidon. Read your Homer.

[Iggo]

2. I want to laugh...

...but I've been alone in the ocean thinking this was the end, and that ain't no joke.

I feel sick for the guy who was lost.

And hey, Baptizers? Confine your rituals to a safer place. The ocean is not your fucking friend!

[woodsprite]

3. That's what they make baptismal founts and pools for.

My inlaws joined an evangelical church that told them they were never truly baptized because they weren't baptized in a body of water. Soooo, in their 70s, down the slippery slopes of White Clay creek, they were rebaptized. It's a local creek where they have little signs notifying fishermen that they are not to eat the fish that are caught there due to chemical pollution (we live in the land of duPont, Hercules, Ciba Gygi, etc.).

I hope they find Mr. Flores.

[upaloopa]

4. Just down from there the area is called Surf.

It is a train stop and the beach is called Surf Beach. It has that name because of the rough surf.
Hardly anyone would go out very far if they go in the water at all. Twice surfers were killed by great whites at Surf in the last three years.
Don't go in the water!
I live 9 miles from there.

[liberal N proud]

5. I can think of a dozen things to say

None acceptable.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Yeah, I think I'm just going to walk away from this one.

[Nay]

41. Yeah, me too. I just wouldn't have anything nice to say. nt

[BlueStreak]

102. I guess I wasn't raised tight.

What the hell did they think they were doing out there? Everybody knows you have to use genuine church-approved holy water.

[Arugula Latte]

58. Me too.

When it comes down to it, that is a terrifying and sad incident. Poor guy.

[newfie11]

6. I wonder if that had anything to do with the results of the big earthquake in Chili? Nt

[hrmjustin]

7. This is what Baptismal Fonts are for.

So sad!

[cleanhippie]

18. One would think that the god one is committing oneself to would protect them...

[hrmjustin]

19. The fact is the laws of nature apply to believers and non-believers.

[cleanhippie]

20. Except when they dont, like when "miracles" happen, right?

But like I said, its reasonable to think that the god you are committing yourself to through baptism would ensure your safety. Thats not a very good selling point.

[hrmjustin]

21. No it would be reasonable to assume that the current can kill you no matter what you believe.

[cleanhippie]

22. I agree, yet it seems that the risk would be mitigated by the god you are committing to, no?

I guess you just don't see the irony.

[hrmjustin]

23. The risk would be mitigated by using a Baptismal Font.

[cleanhippie]

24. So much for "faith" then.

[hrmjustin]

25. Having faith in God will n8t stop a current from drowning you.

[cleanhippie]

26. Thats pretty obvious now.

That guy who drowned probably wishes he knew that before.

[hrmjustin]

27. Well it is common knowledge that currents can kill.

Sad story all around.

[cleanhippie]

28. Its common knowledge that god protects the faithful.

Or at least it was.

[hrmjustin]

30. It is not that simple.

Depends on your education generally and your knowledge of your faith.

[cleanhippie]

32. Sure it is.

2Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

2Samuel 22:3-4 my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my savior; you save me from violence. 4 I call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised, and I am saved from my enemies.

1John 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.



I guess myself and millions of others simply interpret scripture and the holy word of god differently. YMMV.

[hrmjustin]

33. If you take every part of the bible literally then it will seem simple but for those of us

that are believers and don't take it all literally it is not all that simple.

[cleanhippie]

36. I understand. Its only as simple as you need it to be.

[hrmjustin]

37. I wish it was simple, but...

[cleanhippie]

42. Again, I understand. As you stated above, "If you take every part of the bible literally..."

If you take every part of the bible literally then it will seem simple but for those of us that are believers and don't take it all literally it is not all that simple.

Like believing that the resurrection is literal, but that cursing a fig tree is not. Or some other miraculous thing you don't believe is literal while another is.

Knowing just when another believer believes something to be literal when another does not is anything but simple, it's downright confusing.

[hrmjustin]

45. Life is confusing.

[cleanhippie]

47. Says you. I strongly disagree.

But keep changing the subject. It helps avoid uncomfortable truths.

[hrmjustin]

49. Oh please!

I am not changing any subject.

[cleanhippie]

50. You're reading it too literally.

[hrmjustin]

51. .

[rug]

68. You've just experienced what he thinks is a "reply" in the Religion Group.

[riqster]

38. The natural world is neither the Evil One nor your Enemy.

If God created it, how could it be?

Read the entire verse: otherwise, the "taking it literally" bit does not wash.

[cleanhippie]

43. Are you saying that evil doesnt exist?

[rug]

69. It's more evident that obnoxious stupidity exists.

[Goblinmonger]

48. God created Satan

Or are we not taking that part literally?

[rug]

70. God created Hitler. Do you have a point?

[LiberalAndProud]

81. Evidently, you are correct in your assessment.

The problem may be with faith that requires discarding, discounting and discrediting the evidence. (Present company not included, obviously.) Also, there is scripture that could be interpreted to reinforce a view contrary to your own.

[font size="1"]39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

40 He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”[/font]

[hrmjustin]

92. To be fair to these people who were in the water I doubt they thought they could

walk on water.

[LiberalAndProud]

93. These people did, however, think that they could ignore the posted signs.

At least we can surmise that from the circumstances surrounding this accident. This at least suggests that they felt they held some sort of immunity from the danger. Or perhaps they were simply resigned to God's whim. Doing stupid things doesn't necessarily require faith, but ... I can't finish that sentence without sounding disrespectful, and I don't mean to be.

As to the scriptural reference, I am not speaking to how these people interpret the scripture, I am speaking to how it might be interpreted, and most certainly is by some.

[hrmjustin]

94. I know what you mean and you make good points.

Looks like they did not pay attention to the danger and thought God would watch them.

[PassingFair]

141. Sacrilege!

[riqster]

34. Indeed, since believers think their deity made the laws of nature.

[hrmjustin]

35. Yes I think God did make the laws of nature.

[riqster]

39. Et moi aussie, mon frere

And thus to be obeyed and respected, not flouted and challenged.

[struggle4progress]

8. Do you just enjoy hearing about drownings, or do you get some special pleasure from the deaths

of strangers whose views you don't particularly share?

[Goblinmonger]

9. If you think there is a problem with this not meeting the SOP of the group

then you should contact a host...oh, wait.

[struggle4progress]

10. I posted the question I wanted to ask

[Brettongarcia]

14. I'm wondering how many religion-related deaths a person can see, before stopping to think

[hrmjustin]

16. This is why Episcopalians use Baptisimal Fonts.

[struggle4progress]

55. On average, about 10 persons accidentally drown every day; and about half of them

are drownings in natural water setting -- that's about 1800 accidental drownings annually in natural bodies of water in the US

I suppose you're free to enjoy the fact that some poor bloke was swept out to sea, but such "pleasures" seem ghoulish and immature to me

[Goblinmonger]

56. So fucking what?

Are you denying that there is irony here? Do you place a time limit on when irony is humorous? I laughed pretty loudly when I heard on the radio that the guy who invented the Segway died when he drove one off a cliff. That's funny. If you don't like dark, black humor like that. Fine. But get off your fucking high horse and stop acting like you hold the god-written tome on what is funny and when.

[struggle4progress]

65. So you say you also laugh when people fall off cliffs. There is a word for that:

Schadenfreude is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others ... It is the feeling of joy or pleasure when one sees another fail or suffer misfortune ...

Schadenfreude really exists and has been been observed in ordinary people. On general principle, I think I should perhaps call your attention to the fact that, in severe and chronic cases of schadenfreude, results can be rather unattractive:

Q. What was the routine like at Dachau?
A. Three times a day, we were counted. We had to carry the dead to the square. Each time, we had to stand at attention in all kinds of weather. We stood wearing next to nothing, had weak bladders, while our tormentors had sheepskin coats and felt boots. The bastards really enjoyed watching us suffer. I remember how the guards had a good laugh when one of them "accidentally" let loose with a machine gun, killing about 30 prisoners ...
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/KZDachau/DachauLife4.html

[Goblinmonger]

67. Nope

Your diagnostic skills are not up to your Google skills. Don't quit the day job to go into therapy. Irony is funny. Deal with it.

And fuck you for comparing me to Nazi concentration camp workers. I'd get a tut-tut from cbayer and others for making that comparison.

[struggle4progress]

73. Let's review your stance: "Man drowns! Ha ha ha! because ... baptism!"

Next let's review your explanation: "Man falls off cliff! Ha ha ha! because ... Segway!"

[rug]

75. That's about it. Howvever, I never saw him post a thread about the Segway death.

No mileage to be gained there. That's what makes this gloating particularly revolting.

[Goblinmonger]

76. Do you not understand irony?

Certainly you can muster the ability to Google that, right?

But go ahead and build those straw men.

Let's go step-by-step:
Is it ironic that a man going to get baptized drowns? Specifically, is it situational irony?

[struggle4progress]

83. You are too careless with facts. The man who was washed away was not being baptized:

... Pastor Maurigro Cervantes told KCOY-TV that the victim, identified as Benito Flores, 43, of Santa Maria, was his cousin, who was assisting in the baptism ... The pastor said that he and the man being baptized were also swept away by the waves but managed to make it back to shore ...
Calif. man helping pastor with baptism swept out to sea
Doug Stanglin
USA TODAY
7:05 p.m. EDT March 31, 2014

[Goblinmonger]

86. OK. Amended question.

Is the drowning death of a person attending a baptism situational irony?

[Brettongarcia]

62. The fall of a single sparrow is notable. Especially if it was preventable. So ...

... how could this have been prevented? Less religious zealotry; more education in natural science.

[Goblinmonger]

78. Ooooh, first post I looked at--that's not how you use a semi-colon. n/t

[struggle4progress]

79. Oh, dear! You are that the sort of English teacher? I do hope your students rebel!

... There are no precise rules about punctuation ...

... Diana Athill once called the semicolon “a sort of extra-strong comma”. This reflects its traditional use to mark an oratorical pause longer than a comma’s and shorter than a full stop’s, as in this line from William Golding’s novel Free Fall: “In some ways you were wise; but you were cruel” ...

... Their textbook function — to separate parts of a sentence “that need a more distinct break than a comma can signal, but that are too closely connected to be made into separate sentences” — has come to seem like a dryly beautiful little piece of psychological insight. No other piece of punctuation so compactly captures the way in which our thoughts are both liquid and solid, wave and particle ...

[Goblinmonger]

84. You can't have it both ways.

The meaning of my post, misplaced modifier and all, was clear. You complained about it. Fine. You can't then say you have the "do what you want" type of approach.

[struggle4progress]

91. Now, see, what I was hoping you'd say was:

"As a high school English teacher, I regard it as my sacred duty to use any means available to teach my students to rebel"

[Lordquinton]

97. Kurt Vonnegut said

“Here is a lesson in creative writing. First rule: Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college.”

[Bluenorthwest]

40. This story is of interest to me because as a kid I attened a large CA church which

gained much attention from doing baptism in the breakers. In the sea. Dozens of people I know were baptised in that fashion. Of course, they used a sufer selected safe cove like beach. The beach in the story is notoriously rip tideish and one has to wonder why they picked that one or if they researched at all. But this is a very useful story to me for many reasons.

[eppur_se_muova]

15. Darwin in action isn't pretty ...

sometimes you can only shake your head, and laugh, however grimly.

(1) Could've been baptized in a kiddie pool, but NOOOOOOOO ... had to be in the freakin' ocean (which never happened in the Bible, AFAIK) ...

(2) If you don't go through the ritual immersion in water you're a worthless person and God hates you, so it's worth risking your life.

I just can't follow the "logic" that led to this absolutely, utterly preventable, *self-inflicted* tragedy.

[pokerfan]

11. The dangers of adult baptism...

Cages of the leaders of the Münster Rebellion at the steeple of St. Lambert's Church

[riqster]

31. Old Presbo joke on that topic:

An old Scottish man was asked if he, as a Presbyterian man, believed in infant baptism. His reply:

"Sure, and how could I not? I've seen it done, seen it with me own two eyes, hundreds of times!"

[Brettongarcia]

13. Of course his religion was not at fault?

Undoubtedly he had mental illness.

Anything but religion. Couldn't be that.

[hrmjustin]

17. No one said that. of course his religious practice caused this.

[goldent]

46. I suspect he did not understand the danger he put himself in

Unfortunately, this is not a rare event. And when I lived near the shore, it would happen in spite of warnings. Nothing to do with mental illness.

[pinto]

29. The area is noted for dangerous rip currents. (nt)

[Brettongarcia]

44. So what "CAUSED" all the religious-related deaths we are discussing here? Consider CAUSALITY

We all need to look into the nature of CAUSALITY. In this case, what caused the death was this: the man ignored nature, and posted warnings about it. In the name of his religion. So finally Religion is a major causal factor.

This is what's wrong with all the many recent, gleeful attempts by religious apologists on DU, to suggest there were other causes of these deaths; "mental illness" and so forth. These attempts seem unaware of the full, complex nature of Causality; A major subject in Science.

Regarding "Causality"? Briefly: many things have MANY "causes," or causal factors.

So for example? Take a person who in the winter, is walking in shoes with holes on them, across a frozen lake. Who develops frostbite. So what exactly, is the "cause" of the frostbite? Actually the cause is more complex than some might think. There are many elements here. It is not just 1) the person who decided to walk on a frozen lake in bad shoes. For example 2) there is the ice on the lake. And then 3) there is the fact that it is winter, and it is cold; that made the ice. Then the 4) shoes, which had holes in them. Then 5) the fact there was a lake there perhaps. Or 6) maybe "God," who make the lake and the ice. And so forth.

As Philosophers have known since the days of Aristotle, then especially Francis Bacon, there are inevitably many contributing factors that "cause" something.

So the confusion that many apologists for religious deaths are committing here on DU? Is their inadequate notion of "CAUSALITY." Here DU apologists have fixed on this or that one of the many agencies that contribute to the fatal result. Finally though, most of us normally try to find the key one or two causal elements that we can as human beings control: our human agency or will; what we chose to do. While in this case, we might fix on the ignorance of the man about frostbite; then choice of the man to walk on ice in thin shoes.

Or in the case of the drowned man? We should focus on the man's choice - to follow his misguided sense of religion. With its ignorance of Nature. To do something religiously motivated. That could get him killed.

In the cases of people with "religious delusions"? It is not just "mental illness." The relevant scholarship cited here, often mentions religion as even THE major, significant, decisive causal factor.

[goldent]

52. He "ignored nature, and posted warnings about it. In the name of his religion" ?

I didn't see that in the article - is there another article with more detail?

There is a principle called "Occam's razor" that applies here. There is also a principle from probability theory called "prior probability"

With these in mind, it seems to me the most likely possibility is that he was unaware of the danger, or thought it wading out a short distance for a baptism wouldn't be dangerous. That is consistent with most deaths like this. You might have this accident confused with things like snake handlers.

[Brettongarcia]

60. But? Lots of people there; none knew danger? A local poster here notes nearby warnings

In any case, baptism is religiously-motivated. And desire for baptism is clearly a major causal factor in this death.

So ... Religion is a primary causal factor in this death.

[pinto]

59. The guy drowned in a rip current. It's not that uncommon here.

I don't see why this needs to be conflated with other issues outside of the obvious tragic loss of a life. Folks participating in these ocean events ought to know some basics, though. Don't try and swim against a rip current, i.e. directly back to shore. Swim horizontal to the shore. It's your best shot at getting a footing once you get beyond the rip.

[Brettongarcia]

61. So what motivated these people to ignore all that, here? Religious zealotry

Many of the articles we've been citing here, clearly list religious ideas as the major factor in disasters like this.

This person wasn't there to surf or swim; those were not the motivators in this case. In this case, it was Religion.

[pinto]

63. Yes, it was a religious ritual held in a volatile section of surf. Who do you blame?

The guy who drowned, religious zealotry, rip currents, god, nature or just a poor luck of the draw?

[Brettongarcia]

64. The Cause? Too much religion. And related to that often: not enough knowledge of natural science

We blame human error, since that is the factor most in our own control. In this case, that error was religiously-motivated.

We probably should blame the error; not the human person of course. Who might have been taught better.

If not for misguided religious leaders. Who brought him to the dangerous water.

[pinto]

66. The cause - rip current. Lots of folks are unaware of the dangers of rip currents.

They are often unpredictable, often very local events. It's not a religious issue, in my opinion. It's a basic public awareness issue. Rip currents happen. Some beaches here have warning signs, some don't. Some coastal towns have better public awareness campaigns about the rip current danger. Some don't.

Has nothing to do with "too much religion". I get your point to an extent, the guy was being baptized in the surf. Yet I've seen you have a bigger point of view here in this forum. It's welcomed.

[Cleita]

53. This. It is true and it begs more questions than answers.

You and I know that public service announcements are made over various media venues as to the surf conditions every day here. Whom do you think is culpable for this tragedy? Is it the county for not having adequate law enforcement, life guards for instance, to keep people out of the surf during rip tide conditions like they do further south like in Santa Monica? Or is it the fault of the church for not educating themselves on surf conditions. Why not choose calmer waters like those at Lake Lopez? This is a sad tragedy any way you look at it.

[goldent]

54. It is a tragedy

and I think there is a limited amount that can be done. No matter what, people will get into the water, thinking they can deal with it. And to be honest, most can or we would have these tragedies much more often. People also think they can safely operate their mobile phones while driving, or drive after having a few drinks, in spite of warnings, laws, etc.

I think this kind of thing has been going on for millennia. Probably could find instances of it in the bible if I knew it better

[Goblinmonger]

57. As an English teacher, stop throwing around the word "tragedy"

This isn't a tragedy. It's sad. Actually, it's also kind of funny because of the irony. But we have no way to know if it meets the requirements for a tragedy.

[rug]

71. Tell his family it's not a tragedy.

Tell your (unindoctrinated, I'm sure) students this story when you teach irony. Adolescents may find it kind of funny.

[struggle4progress]

74. Your sentence

As an English teacher, stop throwing around the word "tragedy"

would have earned generous red-pencil marks from any English teacher I ever had

[Goblinmonger]

77. Is that the game we're playing now?

Everything I post on an online discussion forum needs to be perfect? Do I get to be your grammar nanny, too?

No comment about the point I was trying to make or just a deflection to something unrelated? I know that's your forte, but it gets a little tiring.

[struggle4progress]

82. Perhaps if you find it appropriate to complain about someone else's writing, as in your #57,

then it is appropriate for others to complain about your writing, as in my #74

[Goblinmonger]

85. That wasn't writing.

That was word choice/definitions. There's a difference. Google it if you don't understand it; I don't get paid to teach you. (And that is how you use a semi-colon.)

[okasha]

95. As an English teacher,

surely you are aware that tragedy frequently includes ironic elements. Oedipus leaving home to svoid Apollo's prophecy, only to fulfill it almost immediately; Macbeth's misinterpretation of the witches' predictions. Claudius' poisoned cup that kills Gertrude instead of Hamlet.

I can't speak for you, of course, but I don't find any of those passages particularly funny.

[Goblinmonger]

96. If you didn't cringe/laugh at least once in Oedipus,

I feel sorry for you. He says some pretty hilarious things about finding the killer of the king.

Your Macbeth instance isn't irony.

Claudius' cup is, perhaps, ironic and has some humor to it.

[mr blur]

104. "Macbeth's misinterpretation of the witches' predictions" isn't irony. Try to keep up.

[okasha]

105. Of course it is.

Funny, there's an echo in here.

[Goblinmonger]

117. If you're going to try play with the big boys

it's not the interpretation of them that is ironic. They are ironic paradoxes.

And I'm just jesting with you with the "big boys." Both blur and I have/do teach English.

[struggle4progress]

72. The Rancho Guadalupe Dunes Preserve website warns:

... The main hike that people do is to walk south along the ocean to Mussel Point/Rock. Please note that the surf can be very dangerous at this location. It is approximately 2.5 miles from the parking area to Mussel Point ...

However, according to reports

... the man went missing .. a couple of hundred yards north of the parking lot ...

I haven't been able to find warnings for the area where he disappeared, which is between the parking lot and the mouth of the Santa Maria about 600 yards north of that, The park does not seem to prohibit entry into the ocean:

... Rancho Guadalupe Dunes Preserve is a great place to surf, fish, hike ...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

80. What if you got baptised and your life still sucked??

That's for another thread.

[struggle4progress]

87. In the standard view, baptism has never been a magical rite promising material benefits

or material protection: it is a variant of the mikveh, as practiced by a first century Jewish cult

For John came to baptise men in the wilderness, proclaiming baptism as the sign of a changed heart and of the cancellation of debts. And all of Judea and Jerusalem went to the desert and received his baptism in the river Jordan, confessing their debts

What physical act could a person perform in order to symbolize a radical change of heart, a total commitment? Is there a sign so dramatic, dynamic, and all-encompassing that it could represent the radical change undergone by the convert to Judaism? Jewish tradition prescribes a profound symbol. It instructs the conversion candidate to place himself or herself in a radically different physical environment -- in water rather than air ...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

88. But I thought believing that Jesus would fix everything would work!

At least that's what they told me at church. Or that things would get better.

[struggle4progress]

89. I'm sorry if anyone told you such poppycock or if you believed that

[Manifestor_of_Light]

90. That's what the preachers say.

They say your life will be much better when you accept Jesus as your savior, blah de blah.....

Some of them are subtle, some of them are obvious.

They talk like believing in Jesus is the answer to all your problems. He'll help you make your life better.

This was a major protestant denomination. Two of them in fact--two megachurches that were part of established denoms.

[Brettongarcia]

98. I attended DOZENS of churches as a child;my family moved around a lot. I debated religious leaders

I can't remember a single one of them that did not promise a better life after joining them. Even "all" and "whatever" we "asked" (John 14.12 ff).

Now and then some would only partially disavow the huge promises. But how could they entirely denounce them? Who would sign up to be a Christian, if they were never promised ANY benefits?

Then too of course, the Bible makes one huge promise after another.

To pretend they did not is not entirely honest.

Suggesting that modern Christians are not quite ... honest.

So if they are joining to learn moral or spiritual things? Seems it just didn't work. They didn't learn Honesty, for example.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

99. They tell you how wonderful everything will be if you just accept Jesus.

They tell you you'll be able to bear any burden. Those people who killed themselves because they couldn't stand whatever pain they were in, well, they weren't true Christians. They didn't have enough faith.

I got sick of people who wouldn't help me find a job, either. I didn't want charity. I needed a job.

I also finally found the courage to leave, and stand up and walk out on preachers who told us all in the pews we were worthless sinners because we were breathing. All based on an ancient fairy tale.
These preachers didn't know us personally.

I'm convinced you have to be some kind of masochist or have low self-esteem to be a Christian since original sin and substitutionary atonement is the starting premise of Christianity.

God is a crooked prosecutor who charges you with a crime you didn't commit.

I have yet to get honest answers from Christians on this board. Answers to questions like:What do you believe, specifically? Do you believe in the Great Commission?

They've told me:Oh you can believe all sorts of stuff and be a Christian, which I find to be repulsive, as well as false, since they recite creeds and place great emphasis on believing certain things.

They are intellectually dishonest. It's a con job. "Your life will get better, but if it doesn't....then you didn't read your Bible hard enough or pray enough." That is completely insulting to my intelligence.

[trotsky]

100. Well, according to most DU believers, churches like that don't exist.

It is their personal experience with their church which sets the standard. (BTW, this allows them to also call beliefs other than theirs "poppycock," which would of course incur great wrath should an atheist use it to dismiss the beliefs of DUers. Double standards are fun!)

[el_bryanto]

103. Nice that you feel comfortable describing what most DU believers argue

I am guessing that if I stated what most DU Atheists argue and it didn't coincide with your personal beliefs you'd suggest that I was disingenuous?

Or query me as to how felt comfortable talking for DU Atheists?

I do agree though double standards are fun.

Bryant

[trotsky]

114. I feel quite comfortable describing what most believers have told me.

Or at least the most vocal ones, who act as if they speak for many.

Perhaps you could help by correcting them when they presume to speak for you?

Of course if you want to make this about how you are victimized when you put false quotes in quote marks, attribute them to atheists in the forum, and get all righteously indignant when you are called on that, we can certainly discuss that too. Although you should probably start a new thread for that.

[hrmjustin]

108. I didn't know you speak for most DU Believers.

[trotsky]

110. I can only go by what I've been told.

By people who claim to know better than me.

[hrmjustin]

111. Really, ok.

I think DU believers are very honest about believers that are more conservative.

[trotsky]

112. That has not been my experience.

And my experience is just as valid as yours.

[hrmjustin]

113. I never said you experience wasn't valid but I don't agree with you.

[rug]

115. Imagined experiences are delusions or lies.

[hrmjustin]

106. Life is more complicated.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

107. Yeah, and they lied to me.

[hrmjustin]

109. I am so sorry they did.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

116. Well, all the churches I've ever been to tell me how my life will be so much better if I accept

Jesus.

Nothing changed. Absolutely nothing. And the people certainly didn't help me find a job in 2 megachurches of 2 major denominations.

So they all lied to me.

And if you're telling me churches don't do that, I've been to a lot of different denominations, and they all lied to me.

People are always looking for something to believe in. When they find out the leaders are fallible, they might walk out the door.

Surely this is common knowledge, that churches tell you many Bible quotes telling you you can be strong, overcome any bad thing that happens to you.

[hrmjustin]

118. Churches promise different things.

I am sorry you had bad experiences at churches.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

119. What do they promise you? Please tell me, specifically.

In exact quotes.

I heard things like hymns about victory.

"I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me."

You're going to heaven if you believe, unlike those people who "don't accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

And a whole lot more I don't want to remember because it's painful.

[hrmjustin]

120. My clergy have made no promises.

They just preach the gospel and try to relate it to our lives today and run the parish.

They don't claim anything about who goes where after death.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

121. They haven't told you you're saved?

[hrmjustin]

122. Lol they would not say anything of the sort.

Iif they started talking like that they would be gine in a few days.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

123. I thought the purpose of Christianity was to "save" people through substitutionary atonement.

Which starts with original sin.

When you are baptised in your church, does that mean anything?

[hrmjustin]

124. Of course Baptism means something It is the right of initiation.

All original sin really means is that we are imperfect and we are all sinners.

Iff someone asks me if I am saved I say that I was saved 2000years ago on a hill outside of Jerusalem.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

125. what do you think saved means?

[hrmjustin]

126. Saved in terms of what Christians think is salvation.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

127. what is the definition of salvation?

[hrmjustin]

128. Salvation in Christian terms means you get to heaven.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

129. And therefore everybody else goes to hell??

[hrmjustin]

130. Some believe that but I do not.

I don't believe in hell.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

131. Some? Who is some?

What is the official doctrine of your denomination that you are supposed to believe??

Or is that a matter up to the individual conscience, or is it in a creed you recite?

[hrmjustin]

132. We recite a creed but the church does not require us to except every single part of the creed.

I am Episcopalian. We are not a fundamentalist church.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

133. That's interesting.

I know Episcopalians are not fundamentalists. I am wondering, because I have never heard a minister in any Christian denomination say "Oh you don't have to believe everything you say."

Does it actually say that in the denomination's articles of faith? Or how did you know that?

I was raised Presbyterian and they are not fundies either.

[hrmjustin]

134. Anglicanism is founded on scripture, tradition, and human reason.

There are no official rules you have to follow.

Clergy will tell you to follow your heart. We are an inclusive church in the US.

My clergy have always told me that what I believe is my choice.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

135. There are no official rules? You can believe anything?

That's not what I found at the official website of your denomination, www.episcopalchurch.org

I found under What We Believe: Baptismal Covenant, The Bible, Book of Common Prayer, The Catechism, Christ-Focused, Revised Common Lectionary, The Creeds(Apostles' and Nicene), History of the Episcopal Church, Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, The Sacraments, Music, the Five Marks of Mission, Sermons and Spiritual Growth.


This does not look to me like an organization with no rules about what you have to believe. It appears to have a lot of rules about a member's beliefs and actions.

So has your pastor told you you don't have to believe in a)God; b)The Holy Trinity and its doctrines c)All those other questions you are supposed to answer at baptism, reciting the creeds, and in the Book of Common Prayer?

I don't think he or she has told you that.

Sorry, I am not buying your answer.

[hrmjustin]

136. Ok well you go to an Episcopal Church and see for yourself if you don't buy my answer.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

137. No, I don't buy your answer.

I've been to several Episcopalian churches, both the high church smells and bells kind and the less formal as well.

I used to sing in a choir at a church where the minister sang in plainchant and we responded in Anglican chant (four-part). It was very high church.

So why are you so at odds with the beliefs of this church you go to?

That's the only conclusion I can come to.

[hrmjustin]

138. No.

I believe in the creed. I just don't believe in hell and no one I know has been told what they have to believe by the clergy in my denomination.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

139. They spell out what they believe on their website in great detail.

OK. The Apostles' Creed says "He descended to the dead" instead of hell.

You are the first of the several Christians on DU I have asked, that has admitted that they believe in something, rather than, "Oh you can believe anything you want to" which I consider to be dodging the question, when their denominations say many things that are far different from "you can believe anything you want to."

[hrmjustin]

140. You can believe what you want. there is no theological police in my church.

You wouldn't go to the church if you didn't believe in some of it.

[BlueStreak]

101. Are these guys trying to win the Religious Darwins? Forgetaboutit

Brother Coots has that one locks up.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/snake-salvation-church-to-continue-snake-handling-after-pastor-coots-death-from-bite-son-takes-over-115068/