Passover, the Jewish Holiday for Gentiles

[xchrom]

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/04/passover-the-jewish-holiday-for-gentiles/360608/

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A Passover seder at the White House in 2009 (Pete Souza/Reuters)

Passover is a festival of questions, many of which can be summed up by the single query: “Why is this night different from all other nights?” Here’s one answer: It’s the Jewish festival that non-Jews love to observe.

The seder, the ceremonial feast held on the first two nights of Passover, is one of the most intricate rituals in the Jewish calendar, kicking off an eight-day stretch of complicated and demanding dietary restrictions. The initial meal, which ranges from eating bitter herbs to reciting Talmudic passages in a foreign language, usually lasts for several hours—and dinner isn’t served until more than halfway through.

The festival commemorates the exodus from Egypt, a key step in the formation of the Jewish people. The seder is not just a retelling of the story, like the weekly Torah readings in synagogue; it’s an invitation for Jews to relive the liberation from slavery as if they had actually been there in Egypt, to teach the narrative to the next generation, and to claim the history of their people as part of their own individual identities. In other words, Passover does not seem like the most obvious festival for outsider participation.

And yet every spring, non-kosher restaurants, churches and student organizations around the U.S.—not to mention Jewish homes—invite non-Jews to relive the Israelites’ exodus from bondage. Even the White House has held a seder since 2008. What is it about Passover that speaks to non-Jews and entices them to participate in what is, at least in its traditional format, a multi-hour Hebrew service over a meal with no bread? Surely an option like the recent festival of Purim—where the law stipulates dressing in costume, swapping food baskets and drinking to oblivion—would be a more appealing choice?

[edhopper]

1. Umm?

The seder is not just a retelling of the story, like the weekly Torah readings in synagogue; it’s an invitation for Jews to relive the liberation from slavery as if they had actually been there in Egypt, to teach the narrative to the next generation, and to claim the history of their people as part of their own individual identities.

Except that never happened, which calls into question what that means if a "key step to the formation of the Jewish people" is nothing but a fable. What exactly are they celebrating? A culture based on myth and fiction?

[hrmjustin]

2. So should they stop because you say it is not real?

[edhopper]

5. Acknowledging that it is a tradition

based on myth would be a good start. Like Easter Eggs or the Christmas Tree.
Believing it is a true story and validation that God has chosen you over all other people is not beneficial.

[hrmjustin]

7. With all do respect I think they can go believing it without your permission.

[edhopper]

12. Of course they can,

people will go on believing all kinds of foolishness.

And I can go on pointing out how untenable those beliefs are.

[hrmjustin]

13. Your opinion that it is foolisness.

[edhopper]

15. Yes

my opinion. Their opinion that is a true story of Moses and God.
Your point?

[hrmjustin]

16. That it is your opinion.

[edhopper]

17. Which?

That it is foolish or that the exodus story never happened.
The first is a personal characterization and obviously an opinion, the second is not an opinion but a statement of what all the actual evidence shows.

[hrmjustin]

18. There will never be 100 percent proof either way on the exodus.

[edhopper]

20. 100% isn't the benchmark

All evidence so far showing it did not happen, with only a few bits here and there that have to be twisted like a pretzel to support it, should lead one to accept it did not happen. History is not belief, it is events that occurred, and with only a tale in a book of myths to show for, we should pretty much discount this as we would the mythical tales of Greece or the Norse. or America. Or should we give credence to Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan in your book.

99.9% proof doesn't make it a toss up.

And BTW isn't your believe that God exist just your opinion and nothing more.

[hrmjustin]

21. My belief is God is true and you don't have 99 percent proof it didn't happen.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. Watch mythbusters.

100 percent proof either way is just a complete cop-out.

99.99 - clearly didn't happen. 00.01 - might have happened. And I am being generous to the "might have", and ignoring all of the total bullshit parts, just the part where the jewish people were being enslaved in Egypt, that part, just that part, is massively improbable.

On the other hand some of the jews were held captive in Babylon for a large portion of the 6th Century BCE.

[hrmjustin]

24. I understand there is no other historical record of them in Egypt as slaves at that time.

I get that. It does not mean it did not happen.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. yeah, pretty much it does. And the problem is archeological evidence

not just historical evidence. An entire population enslaved in Egypt, a region where due to its climate it is an archeologically rich area, leaves a record. There is none. Nothing. For at least 100 years all sorts of people, experts and amateurs have looked for something, anything. There is nothing. That and even stuff that should be at least remotely accurate, names of cities for example, aren't.

00.01%, and that is being hugely generous.

[hrmjustin]

27. Pehaps it just hasn't been found yet.

[edhopper]

29. Do you even realize how

nonsensical that reply is?

ALL the evidence we do have, ALL of it, points to the story being a fabrication.

[hrmjustin]

30. Says you.

[edhopper]

32. Says

Archeology.

Do you have even the tiniest shred of evidence to support this fable?

The earth is 4-5 billion years old. Who says, maybe they haven't found the evidence for 6000.

Man evolved through natural selection. Says who, maybe they haven't found the evidence for creationism yet.

If you are saying you believe the story of Moses, perhaps you should rethink your position.

If you choose to continue to claim that something that is pure fantasy actually happened, i have nothing left to say.

[hrmjustin]

33. We will have to agree to disagree.

[edhopper]

35. No

I don't.

I have to accept that you wish to believe in something that is a fiction.

Your right to do so. But this isn't a disagreement. This is fact vs fantasy.

[hrmjustin]

36. Your entitled to your opinion.

[edhopper]

38. Your are entitled to your own opinion

you are not entitled to your own facts.

[hrmjustin]

41. That is true for us all.

[edhopper]

42. I await for you to point out

were the facts I presented are wrong.

Can you offer anything but unsubstantiated belief to the discussion?

[hrmjustin]

43. You have offered no proof to me.

I admit openly I can't prove it either way.

If you are tired of talking to me then DON'T.

[edhopper]

45. I have shown you that all the historical evidence

counters that it occurred.

I am sorry I can't have god come down and tell you so, apparently the only proof you accept.

I am sorry you are tired of hearing the truth.

[hrmjustin]

46. What proof?

What actual links have you sent me?

[edhopper]

47. I have done so in many threads in the past

And I doubt any of the bonifide history or archeology sites i might link will sway you.

I invite you to do your own research, or don't and keep your blind faith.

[hrmjustin]

48. Thus you have have not offered me proof.

And I do not have blind faith and I take that as an insult.

[edhopper]

49. Then why do you answer so many threads with

"I just believe it"?

You could read this:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

or this

http://www.amazon.com/The-Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Ancient/dp/0684869136

[hrmjustin]

50. Did I on this subject?

I agree the story is questionable but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[edhopper]

52. It's that equivocation

It's not questionable, it is counter to all evidence.

You make it sound like it's a 50/50 proposition. When all the facts point to it as a sheer myth.

It's like people saying Evolution is "just a theory".

Language used to show doubt, when there is none.

[hrmjustin]

53. Well you make it sound like it is 99 percent not true when you have offered me no proof.

[edhopper]

54. read response #48

as a start.

then try Google

[hrmjustin]

55. Thank you for the links.

[edhopper]

59. your welcome

[cbayer]

4. I would venture to say that all cultures are based on myth and fiction,

including US culture.

Does that make it less meaningful?

[pinto]

9. Good point. Myths and fictions abound in popular (secular, historical) culture.

[cbayer]

10. I was raised primarily in Virginia and did not realize that the

version of US history I was taught was unspeakably skewed until much later in life.

This came as a total shock to me.

You most likely had the same experience.

History is written by the victors and is full of myth, no matter what the culture.

That doesn't make the myth without significance or meaning, though.

[edhopper]

14. Somewhat

Much of our culture has an element of myth. But it is one thing to acknowledge that and another to keep embracing and believing the myth to be true after it has been disproven. The jewish people are by and large not celebrating this as a myth, but as a true occurance that showed they were chosen by God. A very big difference.

We can talk about the myth of the Old West, but if you tell me you believe the John Wayne movies are true, i would wonder about your grasp of reality.

[cbayer]

23. If you get a chance, read the article in this group about Whole Foods.

The absolute devotion some people to have alternative medicines, the anti-vaccers, particular diets, colon cleanings, etc, etc despite those things having been shown to be worthless or even harmful is similar.

I was taught a version of US history that is completely different that what my husband (British) was taught. My version of the civil war was blown apart when I spent some time in Vicksburg, MS. I didn't know that the Spanish had established a foothold in this country before the British until I moved to Santa Fe for a year.

And who is to say what is true and what is not?

I may have mentioned this to you before. One of my favorite movies is Rashomon. If you are not familiar with it, it is a story of an incident experienced by a set of people. Everyone's version of the incident is different, but which is actually "true"? Or are they all true?

So, if there are some who believe the Exodus story and use it to good ends in ways that harm no one, why challenge it at all?

[edhopper]

28. My problem is with this line

"And who is to say what is true and what is not?"

These leads to a "all viewpoints are valid" mindset.

I prefer, "you are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts."

You learned things that were wrong, they were always wrong, even when you thought they were true.
The Spanish were in this country, slavery was a major cause of the Civil War, and this has never been a Christian Nation, no matter what people want to believe.

And I have seen Rashomon several times and I don't come to the same conclusion as you. I don't see it as "you can't know the truth" more about the differences in individual perception.
We never see the unbiased event, just the remembrance of the participants.

[cbayer]

31. When it comes to religious beliefs and religious history, perhaps all viewpoints

are valid. That is, of course, whether there is hard evidence that they are not.

I am not familiar with the actual facts concerning whether the Exodus is true of not and it really makes no difference to me.

You seem quite convinced that it is not true, but I suspect that there are other historical scholars who are equally convinced that it is.

The bottom line in Rashomon for me is that individual perception distorts the truth to such an extent that you can't know the truth.

The "truth" can only be applied to things that can be replicated and where results are scientifically and statistically valid.

I don't think history can ever meet those criteria.

[edhopper]

34. Not really

it's not a 50/50 thing.

The overwhelming evidence is that it did not occur.

We can place it in the Noah's Flood and Jonah category.

And no, while we can't replicate Pompey or the Battle of Hastings or the signing of the Declaration of Independence, we can be pretty certain they occurred.

We can look at the documentation the Egyptians left on the building of the monuments and know that it didn't involve anything from the Bible.

[cbayer]

37. Again, I am not familiar enough with the incident or evidence

to make an argument either way.

And while certainly not literally true, the Noah and Jonah stories probably have some kernel in there that the story grew from, and the allegory/metaphor has some meaning.

But does it matter?

[edhopper]

39. Depends on what people do with

the belief.

[cbayer]

40. Agree. If they have a seder and tell some stories, what harm is done?

[edhopper]

44. None

if they use the story of the Exodus to claim that Israel is their land, given to them by God through Moses, then solutions to the troubles there become difficult.

I never said they shouldn't have a seder, but that doesn't mean I can't show how the story they are celebrating is a myth.

Would you say there is no harm if parents, as well as children believed the presents under the tree were brought by Santa. Or that the the evil spirits and spooks and goblins were real on Halloween?

[cbayer]

57. The difference, as I see it, is that one (the Exodus) is historical and the

others (Santa, Halloween) are stories told about what is happening now.

Again, this is my ignorance, but I don't know much about the connection between the seder and claims on Israel.

But once you mix politics and religion, there is the potential for all kinds of mischief, isn't there? So, point taken.

[edhopper]

61. You want "historical"

even though what has been repeatedly pointed out that there is no historical accuracy to the Exodus story.

What harm is there if people want to believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is true. Or that the Civil War was The War of Northern Aggression and started by the Union. Or that the Constitution was based on the Bible. Where's the harm.

No good comes from believing things that aren't real.

Passover is the celebration of the Jewish People being freed and Moses bring them to the land of milk and honey, where God gave them the land that is now Israel. (Many Jews, especially the orthodox, believe exactly this) You don't seeing how your nation being ordained by God can lead to difficulties?

[Warren Stupidity]

62. "is that one (the Exodus) is historical " no it isn't. That is the point.

There was no Exodus from Egypt to the "promised land". It didn't happen. It is a foundation myth not based on historical events. Worse it is used to justify all sorts of egregious bullshit. Believing in bullshit has consequences.

[cbayer]

3. It really does seem to be the one holiday where gentiles are very often included.

It is also the one that non-practicing jews tend to participate in.

I've enjoyed the ones I have attended. Whether the history is true or not has never made any difference to me. It's more allegory and symbolism. The observance of a culture and a time to ask question can be a very good thing.

[edhopper]

6. If celebrated as a tradition based on a myth

or biblical fable, maybe concentrating the universal themes of slavery and freedom would be fine.
Making it the observance of the central story portraying the Jewish people as special chosen favorites of God is another matter.
And yes, that is the message that is taught (I know this from years of Hebrew School and decades of Seders.)

[cbayer]

8. I've heard some great interviews with some non-believing jews

who have adapted passover to have a more symbolic meaning. Though I've not read the texts they refer to, there are apparently some recent books that remove the religious parts of the ceremony, which is interesting.

Are you familiar with any of that? If so, does it speak to you?

[edhopper]

11. Am not familiar

but sounds interesting.

[mr blur]

19. "the Jewish Holiday for Gentiles"? I think not.

It's possibly one of the few religious "traditions" that non-Jews can join in with their religious friends without being reduced to howls of derisive and embarrassing laughter. Provided, of course, that no-one points out that they're all celebrating something which never actually happened. But, hey, that's religion for you.

Your President is no doubt happy to host the White House seder - he doesn't have to wear any funny clothes for this one and he's far too smart a politician to risk alienating any possible voter. I mean, it's not as if he were trying to get people to make sure they had medical coverage or something else they could find offensive.

[cbayer]

25. I really don't know anyone who would be reduced to "howls of derisive

and embarrassing laughter" when exposed to the religious traditions of people of varying faiths.

But, then again, I tend to hang out with liberal/progressive people who generally eschew mocking and deriding other people just because they are different.

YMMV, and I expect it varies quite a bit.

[PoliticAverse]

51. It's the cheap matzos. n/t

[Gothmog]

56. I enjoyed my Seder last night

Religion is a matter of faith and I am comfortable with my faith. As a reformed Jew, we take the account of the Exodus as not a historical account but an account that explains our traditions and beliefs. The Reformed movement in particular is comfortable with the concept that the story of Exodus is not a historical account http://thesuperstitiousnakedape.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/of-course-what-you-say-is-true-but-we-should-not-say-it-publically-13/

“The Pentateuch is the Jewish Mythology,” stated Rabbi Nardy Grün speaking to me recently from Israel; one of over sixty rabbis from every movement in Judaism I reached out to for this essay and whose thoughts concerning the authenticity of Jewish scripture and its problematic relation to the actual early history of the Jewish people are, in part, detailed here. “My duty as a Rabbi is to interpret the Bible and consider it as my Mythology,” Grün continues, “as the founding story of the people of Israel, of course not to take it literally… it is not a book of facts, but a myth.” An “extended metaphor” is how Rabbi Bradley Shavit Artson, Dean of the Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies at the University of Judaism described the view of the bible held by most rabbis today. “The Torah is not a book we turn to for historical accuracy,” noted Newsweek’s Most Influential Rabbi in America (2012), Conservative Rabbi, David Wolpe; one of the leading figureheads in Judaism’s largest single denomination. “Most Reform rabbis and Jews agree that the biblical text is not to be taken literally or word-for-word,” confirmed Reform Rabbi Victor Appell. “My sense is all liberal seminaries and the vast majority of Jews assume the Bible isn’t literally true,” asserted Rabbi Irwin Kula, president of The National Jewish Centre for Learning and Leadership, adjunct at the United Theological Seminary, and also one of Newsweek’s Most Influential Rabbis. “The Pentateuch is filled with wonderful mythology of our beginnings,” attested Rabbi Robert Schreibman. “The Torah is a piece of human literature,” professed Humanistic Rabbi, Jeffrey Falick of The Birmingham Temple. “Its stories are fictional and that is how I teach them.”

“Some people are surprised, even upset, by these views, yet they are not new,” wrote Rabbi Wolpe in a 2002 article, Did the Exodus Really Happen? “Not piety but timidity keeps many rabbis from expressing what they have long understood to be true.” Wolpe, who was also named one of the Fifty Most Influential Jews in the World by the Jerusalem Post (2012), was among the first rabbis to publically address the awkward, but unignorable, corporeality of biblical authenticity against the backdrop of archaeological discoveries when in his now famous 2001 Passover Sermon he told his unsuspecting 2,300 strong congregation at Los Angeles’ Sinai Temple that Moses and the exodus he supposedly led was little more than a work of inventive fiction, and that “the rejection of the Bible as literally true was more or less settled and understood among most Conservative Rabbis.”

I am comfortable with my beliefs and the fact that the account of Exodus is not a historical account really does not not matter to me. The research mentioned above is not new and really has no effect on my faith or the faith of my family.

The same is true of the account of the creation of the world in Genesis. Other than a few Orthodox rabbis, most Jews do not believe that the world is 6,000 years old which is why there are some many Jewish scientists.

The Torah is a tool for teaching Jews how to be good people and not a historical account or a scientific document that is inconsistent with the Big Bang.

[cbayer]

58. This post is really helpful for me in terms of understanding the meaning of this holiday.

Thanks for sharing it.

Do you think this is a perspective held by the majority?

[Gothmog]

60. The Reformed and the Conservative movements make up a majority of American Jews

The Orthodox branch is about 10% of American Jews. Both the Reformed Movement and the Conservative Branch have no issues as to the historical accuracy of the Torah among the rabbis. The Torah is a document to be used to teach Jews how to be better people and is not a scientific or historical document. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/




As with any group, there is no unanimous position for each group but I think that it is safe to say that a majority of American Jews really do not care if the Torah is an accurate historical document.

[cbayer]

65. In general, every Jew I have met is different.

I guess the same can be said for every christian and every muslim and every atheist.

[Gothmog]

66. There is a joke if you want five different opinions, get four Jews together

Jews are rarely totally on a single mind on any issue and there are disagreements. I spent a number of years on the board of trustees of a congregation and I can attest to this fact from first hand experience. A large portion of the faith is based on the debating of these disagreements to explore the issue. The Talmud is in effect a reflection of these religious debates.

I remember my Temple's head rabbi discussing whether or not Exodus is a historical account and the gist of his sermon is that this does not matter. The purpose of the study of the Torah was to take the stories in the Torah as means to become better people by applying the underlying principles of these stories to current day events. That explanation works for me. I can not say that every one in the congregation agreed with the Rabbi but I found something in the sermon that worked for me.

I am happy with my faith and my children have thrived in this faith.

[xchrom]

63. i celebrate the jewish high holy days and passover

but i am christian.

it's my now long deceased partner -- he was not religious -- but still celebrated all the holidays.

so now i do too.

i wasn't raised in a literal tradition -- so historical fact doesn't have anything to do with my church going observancthanks for your post.

[Gothmog]

64. It is my opinion that most American Jews are not raised to take the Torah as the literal word of G-d

There are some Orthodox rabbis and scholars who take that position but they are in the minority. The Reformed movement is very comfortable with the concept that the Torah is not a historical document. The Conservative Branch is also comfortable from what I have read.