An Easter Blessing

[cleanhippie]

Beloved, let us rejoice, for this is a time of celebration. In the true spirit of this season, let our hearts be gladdened, and let us pray and pay tribute to the deity in whose honor this holiday comes…

…Eastre, the Germanic goddess of spring.

No, no, wait, that’s not right. Let’s try again.

Please forgive our previous silly mistake. As we all well know, beloved, this holiday comes not because of any primitive druidic goddess, but rather in honor of a heroic figure, a true god among men, who was born of a mortal woman and a divine Father. As should be obvious by now, the name of this very special child was…

…Hercules.

No – hold on. That can’t be right either.

Of course, of course. The hero of our story, the one whom we have gathered here to thank, was no figure of pagan Greek polytheism. He was a redeemer, one who came to earth to lift up sinful and ignorant humans, knowing full well he would pay the ultimate price for his actions, but willing to go ahead anyway out of love and compassion. As you all know, this blessed Savior was called…

…Prometheus.

No, no, give us just a minute. We’ll get it right.

We all know full well who is being described here, of course. He is the one, the One, who defeated death itself and rose from the grave, in a miracle that no other would-be savior has ever been able to duplicate. By dramatically displaying his power over death, he proved once and for all that he was the single true god. And his name was…

…Osiris.

No, wait. That’s not right either. Of course! What a ridiculous error to make. Our apologies. (more at link)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/an-easter-blessing/

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Happy Easter to you, too.

Nice way to rain on people's Easter parade...

[Goblinmonger]

2. So people can only enjoy Easter

if they are blindly unaware of those holidays that preceded it? Is it raining on Christmas parades to point out pagan roots?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. Easter and the other Christian holidays have plenty of pagan roots.

And everybody knows it. That's not the point - it's the snarkiness of the OP that causes the rain to fall on the parade. My point is, why not just let people who believe in the Christian version of Easter (and I am not one of them) celebrate their holiday without somebody showing up to say, basically, your god is a fake who just plagiarized from a bunch of other fake gods? People believe what they believe and an air of snarky superiority will not change their beliefs.

[Goblinmonger]

6. You did see the source it came from, right?

It's from a discussion of faith.

[rug]

8. Lol, were you batting your eyes when you typed that?

It's from a six year old gaming message board,

http://compgroups.net/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/happy-easter/429917

By all means, read that entire "discussion of faith."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. A discussion of "faith" from an atheist web site.

And the last sentence is: "Wait – wait – wait – eh, you know what? Screw this."

I do not object to people being atheists, nor do I object to anyone debating any particular faith or lack thereof. I also don't object to people believing in a particular god or gods as long as they don't insist I do likewise. Of course, the problem (if you call it that) with faith is that you really can't argue with it because it's... faith. And many people believe what they believe because of faith, while many others think it's stupid to believe something that can't be proved.

What gives me a bit of heartburn is the air of snotty superiority assumed by some atheists (Exhibits A and B: Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens). I would say Thomas Jefferson had a better approach, saying, “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” So why not just let people alone to enjoy their holiday. People celebrating Easter by believing in the resurrection of a guy believed to be the son of God neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg.

[Goblinmonger]

10. It's not an atheist web site

But don't let facts get in the way.

Founded in 2008, Patheos.com is the premier online destination to engage in the global dialogue about religion and spirituality and to explore and experience the world's beliefs. Patheos is the website of choice for the millions of people looking for credible and balanced information about religion. Patheos brings together faith communities, academics, and the broader public into a single environment, and is the place where many people turn on a regular basis for insight, inspiration, and stimulating discussion. Patheos is unlike any other religious and spiritual site on the Web today.

More here

And in case you aren't paying attention, the two that SO many love to point to on here as the evil atheists of the world have a specific reason for what they are doing. Dawkins, specifically, is reacting to the religious impact on lack of scientific knowledge. But I'm quite sure it won't stop those guys from being the poster boy of what's "bad" in religion.

And I don't care if people celebrate Easter. And I'd be supporting your condemnation of this post if it were in a safe haven. But this isn't a safe haven. This is for believers and non-believers alike to discuss religion.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. I misspoke. It's from the atheist section of that website.

And I stand by my point that it's one thing to have an honest debate and something else to sneer, as the OP's quote has done. Everybody knows Easter derives some of its customs and legends from paganism and other religions. So what? That, at least to believers, doesn't disprove the fundamental belief that Christians hold regarding Easter, which was that Jesus was resurrected. In fact, all snark does is gets people's backs up. You will never persuade a believing Christian that his or her beliefs are false just because somebody says, Hey, silly Christians, the name Easter came from the goddess Oestre and some other gods were born of a virgin and rose from the dead so Jesus can't possibly have done it and you guys just stole their ideas, so ha, ha, stupid Christians.

This isn't an honest debate, it's mocking.

[skepticscott]

14. Nice of you to presume to speak for all "believing Christians"

but the fact is that people come to realize all the time that their Christian beliefs don't make sense, and have no rationality behind them. And they come to that realization by many different avenues, by information and arguments from many different sources.

You're free to cling to your beliefs in people coming back to life all you like, but don't assume that just because you've closed your mind to anything else that others haven't.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. I'm not a believer, myself.

And if you'd actually read my posts you'd see that. I'm just saying that it's kind of mean and tacky to sneer at people's beliefs on the day that celebrates the most important of those beliefs.

[cleanhippie]

20. I couldn't disagree more.

What better day to point out the total absurdity of such a myth than on the very day a large population of the world celebrates said absurd myth as a real, factual event.

ESPECIALLY, when said event is THE basis for the ENTIRE religion upon which people use to justify laws and policy that affect us all.

But that just me. YMMV.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. So how would you convince those poor benighted fools

that their beliefs are in error? Mocking and sneering at them and belittling their holidays sure as heck won't do it.

[cleanhippie]

25. Politely pointing out the total absurdity of said belief doesn't work.

So you tell me. How is it done?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. My point exactly. It isn't done. It can't be.

People have believed in some religion or other pretty much forever. Maybe it started millennia ago because people were trying to understand how the world works, and without being able to analyze natural phenomena scientifically, concluded supernatural beings were running the show. These days, religious belief can also be the result of how people were brought up and what they are familiar with - tradition is a big part of it. Religion can also offer people a sense of comfort and assurance and an ethical framework. It's not going away just because the existence of a god and associated "miracles" are unprovable and even absurd. You can point out, politely or otherwise, the impossibility of - for example - Jesus' walking on water and multiplying the loaves and fishes and raising Lazarus from the dead and then doing the same himself. And the answer is always going to be that that doesn't matter because, stated in various ways, God operates outside the bounds of science.

So if you can't convince religious people that their religion is absurd, what else can be done? My own opinion is that you don't bother trying to un-convert people because you won't get anywhere. What we can try to do is mitigate the negative effects of religion on society - and by those effects I mean the sort of fanaticism that gets oppressive laws passed and, in really extreme cases, encourages acts of violence. Rather than attack religion itself, attack the premise that religion should play any role in governance. Religious beliefs must not in any respect influence the curriculum of public schools, or women's reproductive rights, or the right of all people to marry, for example.

Maintaining the absolute separation of church and state is the only way to prevent the less beneficial aspects of religion from creeping into government. Leave people alone to worship whatever and however they choose, but it is essential that the retrograde and anti-science tendencies of certain (but not all) religious groups be reined in. I firmly believe that this is the battle that must be fought; don't waste energy on debunking religion. Expend that energy on keeping it out of government.

[cleanhippie]

36. If there is any place and time to do that, that pace is here a the time is now.

This place exists for this purpose (among others). This is te place we point out absurdities, flaws in reasoning, promote ideas, and try to convince others of their merit. This is that place.

And only by "debunking religion" and pointing out it's many absurdities that have shown can be very, very harmful, can we remove religion from its elevated place in society as the basis for ethics and morality in our laws and policies.

Sorry, brother, I'll continue doing what I do, both here and IRL: confronting the dangerous aspects and irrational absurdities that make up most religion.

[rug]

37. The Alamo is calling.

[skepticscott]

23. Funny that you dodged all of the points I raised

And are now being dishonest about what you yourself said. You're not just talking about the niceties of the OP, you're arguing that a certain way of addressing beliefs with no evidence behind them can't possibly be effective, when you really have no idea what would be effective with some religionists.

And as noted, this is not a safe haven, and religion doesn't get a free pass from criticism by declaring holy days. Anyone to whom Easter is that sacred should be prayerfully contemplating the joy of their salvation, and not spending time here on such a "holy" day.

[Goblinmonger]

15. And I still stand by my safe haven point.

If this were posted in a safe haven, I would agree it was rude. This isn't a safe haven. If people are too fragile that this post would ruin their Easter then they should probably just stay in the safe havens. This article is just a recognition from those that aren't Christians that this mythology goes way back (and isn't even all that fantastic when compared). I just got back from shopping and so much shit is closed because it is Easter and in addition to that I have to make sure that I am walking on tip-toes in a non-safe haven on DU? Please. It's not like he posted the "Shouldn't have used a Diamond" graphic that was posted in Atheists & Agnostics.

And I think you are WAY over estimating American Christians when you say:

Everybody knows Easter derives some of its customs and legends from paganism and other religions.

I know many people who don't know that at all.

[rug]

27. It did originate at an atheist websiste.

Reposted courtesy of http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/blessing.html

http://compgroups.net/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/happy-easter/429917

It's recycled. Did you notice there's neither a date nor an author on the Patheos link?

[rug]

7. It's recycled from 2013.

http://alt-atheism.org/atheism:easter

Which itself is recycled from 2008.

http://compgroups.net/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg/happy-easter/429917

You guys need a new schtick. Posting old bookmarks on Easter to piss off people is stale. It just makes you look more foolish than rational.

[goldent]

18. There are many rational arguments against Christianity and religion in general

We just don't see a lot of them here.

Instead we see trivial "gotcha" arguments based on the fact that the four Gospels don't have the same last words of Jesus.

[rug]

19. "We just don't see a lot of them here."

Amen.

[cleanhippie]

21. Then please, won't you share with us all these rational arguments against xtianity and religion

in general.

I'm all ears.

[cleanhippie]

4. If factual history is rain, we should put away the umbrellas and get wet.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan

[Warren Stupidity]

12. It celebrates the diversity and similarity of religious beliefs.

How exactly does it rain on Eostre's parade?

[rug]

3. Oh goody, this is #2 from you. What's your Easter recor? I need to start an over/under pool.

[Starboard Tack]

13. Happy Easter to all! Happy Springtime!. Happy fertility!

May we all rejoice in our universal recognition that it is all about renewal, growth and positive change.

[cleanhippie]

16. While I generally agree, I don't see how positive change can take place

When we persist in celebrating absurdities as real events.

[kwassa]

24. What terrible childhood experience did you have with religion?

It must have been quite traumatic for you to make you so motivated to attempt to ruin the experiences of others.

You never stop. Leave no religious holiday behind, at least the Christian ones.

What? No attacks on Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or the many other religions in the world?

This is rather telling.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. How did this ruin anyone's 'experience'?

[trotsky]

29. Answer is, of course: it didn't.

Apparently kwassa just needed to spread some of his toxic anger and hatred.

[rug]

30. Apparently you've never encountered an obnoxious drunk at a party.

[kwassa]

31. An atheist is attacking the holiest Christian holiday on that holiday.

If that is not an attempt to ruin an experiences, than what is?

He could have written this post at any time, but chose to write it on Easter.

[Goblinmonger]

32. Stay in the safe haven

If your beliefs are that vulnerable, perhaps an echo chamber is better for you.

[kwassa]

39. Whatever happened to simple respect?

Cleanhippie's motivation for the OP is obvious. No shot too cheap.

My beliefs are not vulnerable to anything you or anyone else here has to offer. They never have been.

[rug]

42. Is that your way of telling him to shut up?

For someone who boasts about a growing ignore list, your suggestion of an echo chamber is rich.

[trotsky]

33. Could you point out exactly what "attacked" your holiday?

I mean, other than pointing out its similarities to other religions. Or was that the "attack"?

[kwassa]

40. Certainly.

Cleanhippie's post is sarcastically titled as a blessing, and the post itself was designed to mock the Christian understanding of Easter.

On Easter.

Your pretense at not understanding is amusing.

[trotsky]

44. I am terribly sorry you were offended and your religion savagely attacked on its holiest day...

by someone who noted that other religions have blessings and saviors and elements of a spring celebration, too.

I hope that you and all people around the world who were devastated by this post can heal and forgive, in the spirit of Jesus.

[Goblinmonger]

45. You do know the title wasn't his, right?

Several people use that reasoning in here quite a bit and I don't see you jumping down their throat.

s4p has said on recently that pretty much every Christian knows the pagan roots of Christianity. If that is the case, how does this post mock the understanding of Easter?

[Act_of_Reparation]

34. You're absolutely right.

Easter is an inopportune time to discuss Easter. When would you suggest it be discussed instead? Tomorrow? Next Thursday? Christmas? When do you think it would be most relevant to the general discourse?

[nil desperandum]

35. best time to discuss

The answer for many is probably never....unfortunately for the tender sensibilities of the believers of any faith there is never a good time to discuss their particular brand of magic man in the sky.

Muslims frown on the opinions of infidels every day, never mind their holy days, christians have many days where they prefer not to discuss ideas contrary to their doctrine.....

We humans are an amazing species to be sure. So certain of our own godly importance we create a god with nothing better to do than create the likes of us, the most deadly species to ever inhabit the planet....humanity is an abomination on the face of the earth. That simple fact, of what we humans really are speaks directly to the cosmic accident of chemistry that created the monster that is man.

No self respecting god would ever create something like man unless the goal of that god was to create a uniquely hellish existence for all the other inhabitants of the planet....

[kwassa]

41. You willfully misunderstand.

Good for you.

The purpose of the OP is insult, not discussion, by entitling itself as an Easter blessing.

[struggle4progress]

38. Apparently no English translator of the Bible used "Easter" prior to Tyndale

Here's Acts 12:4 from the Wycliff Bible of the late fourteenth century

And when he had caught Peter, he sent him into prison; and betook him to four quaternions of knights, to keep him, and would after pask bring him forth to the people

from the Geneva Bible of the late sixteenth century

And when he had caught him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to be kept, intending after the Passover to bring him forth to the people

and from the "King James" translation (which is, in fact, largely recycled Tyndale)

And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people

The standard Latin text used a word derived from the Hebrew word for passover

quem cum adprehendisset misit in carcerem tradens quattuor quaternionibus militum custodire eum volens post pascha producere eum populo

though Luther used the German version of "Easter" in his mid-sixteenth century German translation

Da er ihn nun griff, legte er ihn ins Gefängnis und überantwortete ihn vier Rotten, je von vier Kriegsknechten, ihn zu bewahren, und gedachte, ihn nach Ostern dem Volk vorzustellen

This suggests that Tyndale (and after him the King Janes translators) followed Luther in translating the Vulgate's pascha into a Northern European folk name Ostern/Easter

[struggle4progress]

43. I expect that someone, who was really interested in mythologies circulating in the Roman empire

(particularly in the first or second centuries) and who wanted to examine the Jesus-stories as a variety of such mythology, could probably say something interesting, by considering what we know about the uses to which mythic stories were put, or about what persons found which mythologies somehow appealing, or about the similarities and differences of the various myths available in local cultures at the time, or about how different mythological traditions actually interacted, or about how myths changed in the retelling to serve different cultural objectives

But the article, that you link, does nothing so interesting, so far as I can tell: it seems a mishmash of unrelated remarks -- and in many respects, it seems not to be very accurate

Eostre/Ostara, unfortunately, seems to be attested only by a single dark ages source written after the alleged worship had disappeared, so anything to be said there must at present remain almost pure conjecture. Prometheus seems never to have spawned any large cultic movement. Osiris had a long history in Egypt, though by the Graeco-Roman era he had been transformed unrecognizably into a Greek god and was usually called by a different name, so in discussing the variant of the Osiris mythology in the first century, it might be important not to assume all elements from times a millennium or two prior were still circulating: Osiris, murdered by his brother in a power struggle, was only briefly resurrected (by his wife) so she could become pregnant

Hercules, of course, was a perennial Roman favorite, known and admired primarily for his feats of strength -- stories rather different in focus than the story of a homeless rabbi brutally executed by the Romans