Atheist Finds Acceptance at Episcopal Church

[rug]

August 18, 2014
Posted by Jack Vance at 6:10 AM

It is no secret that many atheists are rather hostile toward religion, and this seems to be particularly true of those atheists we encounter online. Sharing criticism of religion is an extremely common activity for atheists on the Internet. Some atheists, especially those one is likely to find on Twitter these days, are even hostile toward religious believers.

Some of us have had negative experiences with religion, and many of us believe that religious institutions and/or religious belief have been detrimental to human progress. For many atheists, attending religious services at a church would be a waste of time at best and a way of contributing to a destructive ideology at worst. But atheists are an incredibly diverse group, and it is not hard to find exceptions. Some atheists not only enjoy attending church services but wish they could do so more regularly.

Take this recent post by Snowbrush as an example. He describes attending mass at an Episcopal church and thoroughly enjoying the experience.

It’s not just church I need, it’s the Episcopal Church, and not just any Episcopal Church, but a high church with incense, candles, holy water, altar bells, formality, and solemnity. I can put my heart into every word I say in such a setting without believing them literally. They possess me. Their beauty, their antiquity, the closeness I feel to those who are saying the same words and making the same gestures, is no less strange and beautiful to me than anything that’s strange and beautiful, whether I’m among people or in nature, whether I’m straight or on drugs. I don’t know how anyone could love high church more than I, or approach it more joyfully.

http://www.atheistrev.com/2014/08/atheist-finds-acceptance-at-episcopal.html

[AtheistCrusader]

1. Well, that seems odd.

[rug]

2. Why?

[AtheistCrusader]

3. I can't help but consider the

ritualistic bits as timewasting diversions. If one doesn't believe in the god being worshipped, why invest yourself in or enjoy the process of worshipping something you don't believe exists?

What would one call that? A fetish?

[cbayer]

5. That's you. His conclusion about diversity is what is key here and what

makes the article so cool

Consider that others just don't see things the way you do and revel in their individuality.

No one expects you to do or appreciate what this person does, and calling it a fetish is just an feeble attempt to make it something bad because you can't relate to it.

Surely you are better than that.

[AtheistCrusader]

7. You always just assume things.

fetish
/ˈfɛtɪʃ; ˈfiːtɪʃ/
noun
1. something, esp an inanimate object, that is believed in certain cultures to be the embodiment or habitation of a spirit or magical powers
2. a.a form of behaviour involving fetishism
b.any object that is involved in fetishism
3. any object, activity, etc, to which one is excessively or irrationally devoted to make a fetish of cleanliness

I don't think it's a bad association. I question it's purpose.

A better analogy; someone who gets worked up for, and watches JUST the NFL pre-game show, but not the game. Yes?

Why? I don't get it.

[cbayer]

9. We all assume things. The key is in being able to accept correction when our assumptions are

wrong.

If you weren't using fetish in a negative way, then I stand corrected. But I doubt that you were using it as definition #1 and think you were more likely using it as definition #3.

But if you want to say you weren't being judgmental, then I won't call you a liar.

I watch the Super Bowl only to see the commercials. It's not a fetish, it's just that I enjoy that part.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. I was looking for a word.

Another meaning from another dictionary:
"An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment."

The person in question seems to accept and enthusiastically embrace that it is abnormal. Not passing judgment. Trying to understand. Rug's point about not enjoying opera was helpful.

[cbayer]

14. The person in question enjoys the church service.

I'm not a believer, but a religious ceremony is so emotionally moving for me that I can only participate once in a while. I can't explain that, but it is powerful, and not in a negative way.

Recently I have been exploring the places where St. Francis of Assisi spent his life. It is hard to describe that experience, but it is amazingly vibrant and hard to dismiss.

Religion may not include a belief in god. It may just be a very personal experience.

[rug]

6. See, that has nothing at all to do with belief or nonbelief.

I consider opera a time-wasting diversion. And golf. Don't get me started on sudoku.

People like different things for different reasons. You don't have to turn into Nosferatu just because a crucifix is involved.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Interesting.

Actually the Opera bit most useful. Though, I wouldn't sit through an opera whose story I did not enjoy, and opera is live-acting a story.

I suppose the process of observing/embedded/participating in worship might be analogous to just sitting through a bad opera because you like... being around other people, seeing costumes, the smell of the auditorium, etc.

[intaglio]

27. Ever practiced long form T'ai Chi?

Ritualistic time-wasting diversion in its entirety. I really enjoy it

[AtheistCrusader]

29. I do Yoga, but only for strength/flexibility training.

My impression is that Tai Chi is often practiced for the same reason, though like Yoga, some use it for meditative purposes.

[cbayer]

4. Diversity is a beautiful thing.

What a dull and horrible place this world would be if everyone saw everything the same.

Great piece and love his conclusion.

[Brettongarcia]

10. Another victim falls sadly, to the infamous Catholic/Episcopal "smells and bells"

The external trappings and luxury and clamor; the gold and "gilt" of wealthy churches.

Humanistic aestheticism, the love of Art and gold, is not so far from some of the worst aspects of religion. After all.

[rug]

11. Another poster falls, sadly, to condescension.

[hrmjustin]

12. Agreed!

[Brettongarcia]

19. If you're looking for a solution? I'd suggest embracing Deism, like Thomas Jefferson, for 1 year, 2

Toying around with, imaginatively embracing historical, Jeffersonian "Deism," was a great experience for me in my younger years.

It's a kind of invaluable halfway house between conservative religion and liberal religion. And science, atheists.

Jefferson they tell us, by the way, was an Episcopalian. Rather like yourself.

[okasha]

16. Not to mention sheer ignorance.

[hrmjustin]

15. Episcopal Church services can be magical and majestic.

[Brettongarcia]

18. "Magical" is the keyword. "Hypnotic" would be another one.

Last edited Wed Aug 20, 2014, 06:48 AM - Edit history (1)

They say that early Greek temples presented in part, a mesmerizing but essentially theatrical performance. With cymbals and so forth. But they say, all that was just theatrical magic. Overloading our senses, to take in paying contributors.

Rumor was also, what with all the women caretakers, temples to love goddesses and so forth functioned at times, as whorehouses for lonely sailors.

Some would say we're being taken, in so many ways.

Arguably all that has some value in itself. Still, it's not quite what we normally think of as "religion."

Should we say good things about religion, on the basis of this stuff? Don't overlook the fact that the name of the original author is "Snowbrush." Which I guess is the opposite of "tarbrush"ing. I'd call it "whitewash"ing.

Still, I guess it's nice that atheists can feel at home in Episcopal churches. There might be a reason for that though. The fundies always said the Anglicans and Episcopalians were really atheists or Deists all along. Looks fairly true of Thomas Jefferson, say.

Some high churchers at times seem to have held the "White Lie" theory of religion by the way; that religion is a useful fable, to keep otherwise violent masses in line.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. So?

He's separated the dogma from the ritual and the music. He loves the ritual and music. I can understand that.

Good for him.

People need rituals and religion is a major source of ritual. I learned this in my Nature & Function of Religion course in college many years ago.


I've heard The Tallis Scholars perform live and that was the closest I've ever been to a "heavenly" experience.

But I'm not going to put God into the experience because I really don't know. As well as the semantic problem. I don't know what the word "God" means because everyone has a different idea about the concept.

[cbayer]

20. Weren't you the music director for a church at one time?

Or do I have that confused?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

21. Yes, at a Unitarian Fellowship.

We had a lot of freedom to choose our music. It did not have to be labeled "Sacred" and that was a big plus. It freed me greatly in what I played on the piano or taught the choir. I think all good music is sacred. If it's positive in some way.

[cbayer]

22. I thought I had recalled that.

As I recall, it was a tough loss for you.

I love the thought that all good music is sacred. I have been deeply inspired, that is for sure.

I hope that you will find an outlet for your musical talents again in the future.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. I still play the piano at home.

I was completely obsessed with the violin when I got one and started lessons at age ten, that being my second instrument. I wasn't quite big enough for a full sized violin. I couldn't pull the bow all the way to the end with my arm fully extended. I was that tiny.
My piano teacher was also a violinist, which is rather unusual. I was a first violin in high school and college orchestra.

I like pieces that have moving parts and jazz chords. In my case that means lots of Gershwin and Rodgers & Hart & Kurt Weill. People who get bored with classical often go into jazz (Jean-Luc Ponty is a famous example. Graduate of the Paris Conservatory in violin.)

The pop piano player I can most relate to musically is Joe Jackson (Is She Really Going Out With Him?). The rock keyboard player I wanted to be in college was Rick Wakeman of Yes.

Yes, good music is uplifting. It can be classical, jazz or rock. I like a lot of the classical sacred music like the masses in Latin, the Mozart Requiem, Berlioz Requiem and things the Tallis Scholars, Anonymous Four and Chanticleer do.

[cbayer]

25. I am currently staying in a house with a piano.

I should take advantage of it, but I am so bad that it is painful. I tried to teach myself clarinet last year, but I'm bad at that too. You can't be a musician just by wishing it were so.

You tastes are very compatible with my own. We listen to the Loft on Sirius a lot. Great eclectic music, but not enough classical and/or sacred. I share your love of the Mozart Requiem.

[TM99]

24. I have always greatly respected the Episcopal Church and

consider it a rather unique organization these days.

My father and mother are both Episcopalians. My father converted from nominal Catholicism when he married my mother. He insisted that my two younger sisters and I never be baptized as babies. He wanted us to be free to choose as pre-teens at the traditional confirmation time which spiritual tradition we might want to follow.

I knew I was a non-theist years before that time so I was never baptized or confirmed unlike my two sisters. I attended some church services with my family especially the holiday ones and always felt welcome. When I was graduating from college with a BA in philosophy, I was encouraged by the local pastor to attend divinity school. I laughed and told him that he has known me for years and I am an atheist. He replied that the church needed more atheists and that I should consider becoming a minister. I did end up attending a divinity school for my first graduate degree in religion but it was not a seminary program. I studied along side Anglican seminarians and look back on those years with fond memories of lively discussions and deep intellectual learning. My professional interests are more secular in nature.

Just this past fall, my girlfriend and I visited my folks outside of DC for about two months. During that time, we spent a lot of time with them doing things at their church. My father is a deacon and assists in the EFM training I believe it is called, and my mother has been on the vestry for years. Their social community is their wonderful little Episcopal parish in Maryland. After the first service, we met the priest. He asked us whether we were also Episcopalians. My girlfriend replied that she was a mystic Buddhist, and I replied that I was a non-theist one. His response? He said that we were always welcome and hoped that if we moved nearer to my folks that we would attend regularly as he would personally value having Buddhists in the congregation. Over the rest of the visit, we had some interesting conversations with this man. He had just written a book on healing the rift between conservative and liberal voices in the modern church.

I have come to expect this type of deep ecumenism from the Episcopal Church and its membership. Rituals, especially high religious ones like The Tridentine Mass or a high Anglican one, are powerful and moving experiences whether one is a 'believer' or not. Couple that with a church that is known for its openness, inclusiveness, and respect for scholarship, and this atheist's experience does not surprise me in the least.

[cbayer]

26. Thanks for sharing this. It's a really lovely vignette.

I have also had pretty good experiences with the Episcopal church with one notable exception. There are some deep and ugly holes in some of the parishes and among some of the clergy.

OTOH, some of my closest gay friends are members and the episcopal churches in New Orleans played a big and important role during the AIDS crisis. They really stepped up when many were backing down.

[TM99]

28. You are welcome.

Yes, there are definitely some lingering social issues within that denomination, however, I do see them working towards far more inclusiveness than many others at this time.