What are your thoughts on deism?

[Htom Sirveaux]

It seems to revolve around belief in a creator justified primarily by reason (and either not at all or secondarily by personal experience), and the belief that said creator does not "interfere" with the laws of nature.

From wikipedia:

Classical deism held that a human's relationship with God was impersonal: God created the world and set it in motion but does not actively intervene in individual human affairs but rather through divine providence. What this means is that God will give humanity such things as reason and compassion but this applies to all and not to individual intervention.

(SNIP)

Modern deists hold a wide range of views on the nature of God and God's relationship to the world. The common area of agreement is the desire to use reason, experience, and nature as the basis of belief.

There are a number of subcategories of modern deism, including monodeism (this being the default standard concept of deism), polydeism, pandeism, panendeism, spiritual deism, process deism, Christian deism, scientific deism, and humanistic deism. Some deists see design in nature and purpose in the universe and in their lives (Prime Designer). Others see God and the universe in a co-creative process (Prime Motivator). Some deists view God in classical terms and see God as observing humanity but not directly intervening in our lives (Prime Observer), while others see God as a subtle and persuasive spirit who created the world, but then stepped back to observe (Prime Mover).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

[hrmjustin]

1. I have no issue with it.

I personally believe God does not interfere in the ways of the world.I believe that God gives us strength but I don't think God decideds who lives or dies.

[cleanhippie]

3. If god "gives you strength", isn't that "interfering" with the world?

Saying "god gives me strength to do..." implies that had god not given you that strength, then said thing wouldn't have happened. That's directly "interfering" with the world.

Your statement appears self-contradicting.

[Htom Sirveaux]

4. No, that's indirect.

Direct would be God leaving Justin out of it completely.

[cleanhippie]

5. Uhm, okay?

Thanks for missing the point, I guess?

[Htom Sirveaux]

6. I don't think "God doesn't interfere with the laws of nature"

equates to "God has no effect, direct or indirect, on the world at all", which seems to be the equation you are trying to set up. For example, if God is the one sustaining the laws of nature, that would be an effect that is not an interference with the laws of nature.

[cleanhippie]

7. Take it up with Justin, it's what he believes.

[Htom Sirveaux]

8. No, it's your characterization of what he believes.

I doubt he will accept your interpretation as a fair reflection of his beliefs.

[cleanhippie]

44. Without a straight, easily understood answer, it's all I have to work with.

Do you think Justin's god gives or withholds strength as he describes it?

[AlbertCat]

42. No, that's indirect.

So it's the IDEA of god that gives a person whatever.

If he doesn't interfere, he might as well not exist. Assuming he is needed to start things rolling is just another substitution of "god" for "I don't know".

[hrmjustin]

9. Not to me but I can understand how from a pure logic viewpoint it might.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

13. It really depends on how you define "interference"

Some might define your example of God giving you strength as interference. Others may only describe interference as miracles, natural disasters, etc. I personally define it as the former since by definition, giving you something of tangible value, even if ephemeral, has the potential to affect a causal relationship between you and your circumstances. For example, if you used your strength you believe is endowed by God to jump into a burning building to save another's life, I'd consider that interference.

Would you be more inclined to admin to God's interference if it was only positive things that resulted from the interference?

[hrmjustin]

14. I still think we make our own decisions so I would be hesitant to say that the strength is

interference in any way.

I also think that God giving us strength does not mean positive things will only happen.

[cleanhippie]

22. How about an example? Can you give one where you feel "god gave you strength"

And that strength made it possible for you to do something?

[hrmjustin]

23. When my mother had her surgeries. I asked for strength to get through it.

But we mke our pwn decisions.

[cleanhippie]

24. And you feel that god gave you that strength?

Had god not given that to you, would you not have "gotten through" it?

[hrmjustin]

25. Sure I would have.

[cleanhippie]

27. Then how can you be sure god gave you anything at all?

If the outcome turns out the same whether one "gets strength from god" or not, how can one know if they were actually given anything at all?

Isn't the most plausible explanation that you already possessed the strength needed to endure that ordeal?

[hrmjustin]

28. Because I feel it.

Sure it is reasonable to say it is just my inner strength coming through but I believe there is also strength coming from God.


We make our own decisions.

[cleanhippie]

29. This is so very confusing. You say that god gave you the strength to get through it

But also say you would have gotten through it anyway.

Sounds an awful lot like a sports player saying god have them the strength to win the big game, when it was the practice, the coaching, and the combined effort of everyone else on the team.


It also implies that without gods help, the event would have turned out differently.

If gods help gives a different outcome, how is that NOT interfering in the world?

[hrmjustin]

30. It is gard to explain but I will say that we make our own choices.

[cleanhippie]

31. You keep saying that but to me it's gobelygook.

"We make our own choices" has what to do with "god gave me strength"?

[hrmjustin]

32. Despite the strength one gets from the Almighty we make our own decisions.

[cleanhippie]

34. What decisions? This is about getting strength from god and how it effects the world.

Your response here makes no sense at all.

[hrmjustin]

35. What I am saying and I have been clear ix thst despite this strength we make our own decisions.

[cleanhippie]

37. Uhm, okay? But I still do not know what that means.

Are you saying that despite god "giving you strength" when it came to your mother, you made some decisions about that (like what?) that had nothing to do with this alleged strength you were given?

I'm really confused here, justin. I simply am not following your thought process here.

[hrmjustin]

38. I pray and I ask for strength from God.

I feel an inner strength come through. Spme believe it is just my inner strength coming through but believers believe it is both God and my inner strength.

[cleanhippie]

39. And if you don't "feel it come through" does the event happen differently?

[hrmjustin]

40. No not likely.

[cleanhippie]

41. So what's the benefit then?

Unless it has some effect (on your decision making, perhaps?) on the outcome, of what use is it?

[hrmjustin]

45. Well that is a good question.

I do it because it is a comfort to me.

[cleanhippie]

46. You do what because what comforts you?

I need you to be specific here, justin, so I can understand just what you mean.

You do WHAT? Because WHAT comforts you?

[hrmjustin]

47. I pray to God because it gives me comfort.

[cleanhippie]

48. What does that have to do with "god giving you strength"?

We seem to have gotten away from the topic here, just what you mean when you say "god gives me strength".

I'm trying to understand what you mean by that, so I'll ask again.

If your actions for a given event, or he outcome of that event would be the same regardless whether "god have you strength" or not, what does that even mean?

[hrmjustin]

49. Ok, I pray to God and I pray to God to give je strength to do whatever I have to do in this moment.

It is a comfort for me to do this.

What I mean by God gives me strength is that I feel a state of grace knowing that God is with me. I also examine myself in prayer and this helps me gain my inner strength.

Prayer focuses my mind and it helps me to do whatever I need to do within a specigic moment.

[cleanhippie]

50. So you're not actually "getting" anything from god?

It's like meditation? You calm your mind and find focus, but are not "given" anything by your god?

[hrmjustin]

51. No I believe there is something coming from God.

Hard to explain but I think there is a grace or strength that the Almighty gives us in these koments.

[cleanhippie]

59. Grace or strength? Define that so I can understand your meaning.

Well, wait. Hold that thought.

If you believe that you are literally "getting something" from your god, however intangible it may be, is that thing you are "getting" not effecting you, your decisions, and the world around you?

[hrmjustin]

60. Not in the sense that God is making a decision for me.

Is it having any impact on a decision that I make?

Only in the sense that it helps me look for answers from within.

Grace and strength mean that I know God is with me and is standing by me.

[cleanhippie]

61. So this "strength that god gives you" isn't really strength at all?

You seem to be saying it is and it isn't, at the same time. That's why I am unable to understand what you mean.

[hrmjustin]

63. It is not easily definable.

[cleanhippie]

68. I see that.

If you are unable to define these things for me, how do you define them for yourself? And how can you make statements like "god gives me strength..." when you don't even seem to understand yourself just what that means?

[hrmjustin]

69. You mistake me. I do know what it does for me but it is hard to put it intowords.

[cleanhippie]

70. "I do not know what it does for me"

Then how can you know "it" is doing anything at all?

Telling me that you "just believe it does" makes about as much sense to me as you answering "purple" does.

Thanks for the chat. See you around.

[hrmjustin]

71. I said I do know what it does for me.

And your welcome.

[cleanhippie]

33. And why do you keep evading the big question?

If god giving you strength produces a different outcome than had he not given it to you, how is that NOT interfering iN the world?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

73. I understand the dictotomy of free will vs. intercessory relief

I suspect that you probably do as well, but it's not something you actively question. If you're satisfied with not questioning, I'm happy for you, especially it gives you something that you couldn't get any other way.

That being said, I have to ask: is it possible that the strength you have comes not from God, but from YOU? I think you're selling yourself short by attributing this strength as a gift from God instead of acknowledging that your goodness comes from your own humanity and strength as a person.

[cleanhippie]

21. I'm unsure just how being given a thing that assists you isn't interfering.

If your god DIDNT "give you strength" would you be unable to do the thing that you did with that strength?

[Gore1FL]

2. It's more plausible than Theism.

At least Deism readily admits there is no demonstrable super-deity in the universe poking and prodding while He considering prayers in His all-knowing brain, counts dead sparrows, and numbers hair.

[phil89]

10. No reason to think it valid

No evidence of it being true and it's not falsifiable, no point in bothering with it. It's a big argument from ignorance.

[Htom Sirveaux]

11. What qualifies as "evidence"? nt

[phil89]

36. Something measurable, falsifiable,

Repeatable, objective, observable... Something beyond a persons feelings. Other peoples experiences or personal revelations, for example, are not a reason for anyone else to believe something.

[rug]

56. "Something beyond a persons feelings."

Yet feelings are very, very real.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. it was a way of edging away from the foolishness of traditional theism without getting one's head

lopped off.

[enlightenment]

17. Exactly.

Or, if not as extreme, avoiding public censure and rejection by one's friends and family (Thomas Paine, for example).

[underpants]

52. Yes it was the choice of our founding fathers

As you stated that was the reason why. At least the heavyweights. Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, Madison, Monroe. Washington - that depends in who you ask.

[Warren Stupidity]

54. note the lopping of heads part is mostly hyperbole.

However proclaiming overt atheism would have come with severe consequences up to and including execution.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Still assumes facts not in evidence.

But fewer of them than any personal god.

[Act_of_Reparation]

16. I don't think much of it at all, to be honest.

It is less flawed than other belief systems, but still makes assumptions I believe to be unnecessary and unqualified. It's a roundabout Rube Goldberg way of looking at determinism.

[NeoGreen]

18. A transitional phase...

... point of view while learning to understand reality, whether for a group or individual.

It is a big leap to go strait from Theist to Atheist.

Deism helps with the transition.

[cbayer]

20. I see your point and deism may be a transitional step

from atheism (or agnosticism) to theism as well.

Perhaps that is where a lot of spiritual not religious people are.

But it has nothing to do with understanding reality, just the path that each individual takes.

[NeoGreen]

43. I guess I look at it as...

...everyone is working to understand reality, regardless of the paths/tools they use to do so.

Plus, I assume that the number of individuals that take the path from Atheism to Deism to Theism is <<< then the reverse.
Both over time and at any one period in time. Not to say there wouldn't be some exceptions.

It would be interesting if there were numbers we could use for a comparison.


I also would be interested in a comparison of the number of individuals for:
meh to Atheism to Deism to Monotheism to Polytheism, and
Polytheism to Monotheism to Deism to Atheism to meh

where "meh" is the point that an individual's Atheism doesn't matter because there are no more believers left for comparison.

[cbayer]

75. I agree that everyone is working to understand their reality.

And some of that includes things that can neither be proven nor disproven. Everyone's reality, in the end, is different.

You assumption about the direction in which people travel is not valid unless you have something to back that up. There is clearly a trend for people to go from "religious" to "none", but that doesn't actually address belief.

Many people go back and forth during their lifetimes, while some make only one change or never change at all.

See if you can find good data on this, but I don't think it's out there. One of the problems with this kind of data is that the definitions are often fuzzy.

There have been believers since humans started recording things and I predict there will be believers until we stop.

[cbayer]

19. As usual, these labels are complex and can vary depending on how

they are being used and who is using them.

If you do a small internet search, you will come up with so many things.

The general consensus seems to be that a theist thinks god intervenes and a deist does not.

In general, I think most people live somewhere between the two if they believe in god. That is, they think that god is generally hands off, but does have the ability to intervene,or oversee, or communicate at times.

And then there are all the sub-categories as your link points out.

[cleanhippie]

26. It's only complex when we allow words to have fluid meaning that suit our POV.

Otherwise, it's really not complex at all.

[dmn16]

53. deism

yes i feel it.

[Arugula Latte]

55. I'm more of a Deeist

I believe Billy Dee Williams gives me the strength to do things.

[underpants]

62. Smooooth

[cbayer]

67. I'd rather fight than switch

[Manifestor_of_Light]

72. Or Dee Snider of Twisted Sister?

The guy with the frizzy blonde hair and weird makeup?

His real name is Daniel.

[Arugula Latte]

77. No! I will not worship that guy! I'm not gonna take it!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

57. As an American, I always want more.

So one God just isn't enough.

[ZombieHorde]

58. Deism

generally requires fewer excuses than many other world views.

[cbayer]

64. Not clear. Do you think people identity as deists because they find

it in need of less excuses?

Or maybe that's just what they believe?

[ZombieHorde]

65. I assume different Deists have different reasons for their beliefs.

Seems to me some theists, especially conservative theists, believe in an intervening God, which requires many excuses. For example, natural disasters are God's punishment for treating gay people like human beings, or little Sally passed away when she was six because God needed another little angel.

Deism doesn't need these excuses. God is more nihilistic.

[cbayer]

66. I tend to think that beliefs or lack or beliefs are just what they are.

It's what people do with them that demands attention.

What I believe or you believe or anyone believes is nobody's business.

But if any of us take the position tat we have the one way or the tour beliefs should dictate why is ok, then we have moved into an area worthy of judgement.

Deism, theism, athesim… none of it matters. The only thing that matters i show one behaves towards others.

And, imo, that includes whether someone ridicules others for what they believe or don't.

Using your beliefs to discriminate against gay people - harmful.

Using your beliefs to console others that Sally has become God's little angel - not harmful and maybe even helpful.

[pokerfan]

74. It's tantamount to atheism

which seems to be not welcome here. Still, positing that some super-being created the universe, leaving no evidence and not interacting in its creation in any manner, then how is that any different from atheism?

[cbayer]

76. Why do you say that atheism is not welcome here.

There are many atheists who participate and feel most welcome and there are articles about atheism frequently.

It's not the "posit" that makes it different, it's the belief.