Obama's God

[broiles]

In his outrage at Mr. Foley's beheading, President Obama opined that "no just God would stand for what they did yesterday." Before we start killing people in the name of the just God, let's remember that Jews, Christians and Muslims all profess to worship the same God. Presumably Obama learned about God's justness from the Old Testament. In Exodus 12, to free the Jews "the Lord smote all the first born in Egypt." When the Jews came to Jericho, Joshua 6 tells us that God gave the Israelis their marching orders, caused the walls to fall, and the Jews "destroyed with sword every living thing in it. But more on point, per 1 Samuel 17, when little David felled the "uncircumcised Philistine" with a pebble "in the name of the Lord almighty," he then "cut off his head" and paraded it around for all to see. So what "just God" is Obama talking about? The one little Jewish, Christian and Muslim children are told about in temples, churches and mosques? It should be no surprise that some of them take these stories literally and grow up to bomb and behead others in the "name of the Lord almighty.”







1

[Peacetrain]

1. This One

All things that you would want done for you, Do for others.. Matt. 7:12
Christianity

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman...Talmud: Shabbat 31a
Judaism

Hurt not others in ways that you would not find hurtful Udana-Varga 5,18
Buddhism

This is sum of duty, Do naught unto others, which would cause you pain if done to you.. Mahaebharata 5,1517
Brahmanism

Surely it is the maxim of loving kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you
Analects 15,23
Confucianism

Regard your neighbors gains as your own gains and your neighbors loss as your own T'ai Shang Kan Yingp P'ien
Taoism

That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself
Dadistan-I-Dinik 94,5
Zoroastrianism

No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother which he desires for himself. Sumnah
Islam

[Wait Wut]

2. ...

I was going to shorten it to no 'just' God, but I like yours better. I may not be a religious person, but I know what he meant.

[rug]

4. +100

[trotsky]

6. Yes, we can certainly agree those are good items from various holy texts.

But there are some very bad ones, too. And we shouldn't just gloss over that and pretend that we can just ignore the bad parts, and wag our fingers at those who take those verses to heart and think that will take care of things.

[cbayer]

3. What he said was that no faith teaches people to murder innocents

and took them to task for claiming that they were doing this in the name of god.

Clearly you can find isolated texts that would seem to show that that is not true, but what I think is that Obama would reject those texts and support those that are quoted above.

While it may not be a surprise that some people become religious extremists, I think calling them out on it and rejecting their claims of doing it in god's name is often the right thing to do.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Some faiths do.

At least in some timeperiods, and some contexts, yes, they do. The statement has already been falsified.

I believe Obama when he says the god he says he believes in doesn't command it, and that some interpretations of other faiths don't command it, but some, at least within certain interpretations, absolutely do.

[cbayer]

19. I don't think any faith teaches people to kill innocents.

I do not believe the statement has been falsified.

What he said had meaning and I am going to stand by him on this. Those that use religion as a cover to commit heinous crimes need to be called out.

One can argue on the technicalities, but that is just a waste of time.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. Then you haven't read the old testament.

[AlbertCat]

23. Then you haven't read the old testament.

Or considered the Aztecs.


Oh yeah.... Christianity isn't the only faith, BTW. Even if that god did kill the 1st born....

[cbayer]

39. What about the Aztecs? How does that relate to this statement?

[cbayer]

28. Again, I think you can find things from the bible to support just about anything

if that is what you are into.

But I don't think there are any "faiths" that teach the killing of innocents.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Really?

Have you ever asked a 'true believer' Christian if this is moral?

“go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey” (1 Samuel 15:3-4, emp. added)."

If find few that won't excuse or somehow justify such orders as being somehow contemporarily appropriate, even if it's not appropriate today.

Not once in my life have I met a Christian that reads that and says 'that was an immoral thing for god to instruct his followers to do'. Not once. There is always an excuse, an obfuscation, a justification. Something.

[cbayer]

32. I agree with what Obama said in principle.

It is possible to nitpick and find things that may contradict what he said, but I still support him in this.

So are you taking the position that christianity is a faith that teaches people to murder innocents? And, if so, are you basing it on this old testament story? I'm not saying you are, I am asking you.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. It's not a nitpick, it's the foundation.

Christians don't throw out the old testament as a pile of inconsistent nits. Not in the politically dominant Christian sects in the United States. Perhaps in other parts of the world, perhaps in certain, non-dominant sects, scattered here and there in the US, but not in consequential numbers.

Have you ever even seen an edition of the New Testament published on its own? Without the OT? I haven't. It might exist, but it is less than common.

"So are you taking the position that christianity is a faith that teaches people to murder innocents?"

It is predicated upon the assumption that the supposedly infinitely wise, just, and loving god they believe in is simultaneously capable of, and historically has committed the murder of innocents. To say nothing of outright genocide.

The implicit acceptance of the murder of innocents is built in, or the casual disregard of the possibility a suckling babe might BE an innocent, is baked right into the foundation. Into the character and nature of the abrahamic god.

This is not cherry picking nits. This is a major component of the OT.

[cbayer]

34. This is your takeaway and while you may share it with some,

it is not the foundation for most believers in this world. They see their religions as supporting peace, justice and love. There is no faith that teaches the killing of innocents.

This is nothing but nit-picking. What it reads as is an attempt to either prove that Obama made a false statement or that all christians are basically evil. If you mean it to be something other than that, why don't you explain what that is.

If this is how you see the foundation of christianity, here's an idea. Don't be a christian. If others see it completely differently, here's an idea. Let them be a christian.

I suspect I will have just triggered your outrage here, so this is likely my last post on this.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. I'm not a christian, and I don't seek to become one.

I followed the logic of their ideology, and of course, reject it on its own terms.

[cbayer]

37. I know you are not a christian and I don't expect you to ever be one

I do hope, however that you will someday come to a place where you can give to them what you expect for yourself as a non-believer.

You have every right to reject it.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Criticism? Sure. I've got plenty.

I take plenty too.

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Ok, fine, I won't ignore it.

"This is nothing but nit-picking. What it reads as is an attempt to either prove that Obama made a false statement or that all christians are basically evil. If you mean it to be something other than that, why don't you explain what that is. "

There are more possibilities than the either-or of false statement or basically evil.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Certainly all three abrahamic faiths teach that it is ok to kill people.

Islam certainly does. The O.T. does. The N.T. might not, but it does not refute what the O.T. says.

[rug]

26. WWJD

[Starboard Tack]

5. What does his outrage have to do with "Before we start killing people..."?

What he said made a lot of sense to me and most everyone else.

Did I miss the part where he talked about what a "just God" would stand for, or was that just stuff you dug up?

[Warpy]

7. The desert god of the OT was a war god

who also told people to give to anyone poorer than they were, which made him a slight half step above some of the other war gods in the region.

It's just too bad "give to the poor" wasn't one of the 10. After all, he could have done away with that "jealous god" bit and monotheists would never have noticed. Leaving that in was tacit admission that there was a lot of competition in the god business.

[mr blur]

8. He's a politician, not a priest.

He'll say whatever he has to in order to appeal to the American Christian voter. He's an intelligent man, I doubt that he really believes this stuff? He's just realistic.

[cbayer]

10. Are you calling him a liar? He's a christian. Deal with it.

Nothing about this statement was meant to appeal to the american christian voter.

[trotsky]

11. Hitler claimed to be a Christian...

but I've seen in this very group multiple people state that in no way was he one. I don't remember you jumping on them like this, though.

[Dorian Gray]

40. And when people claimed he

wasn't, they were jumped on for denying that.

So, if we are to stay true to ourselves, Christians should be denying Obama's Christianity while atheists should be insisting upon it. (Wait! What????)

Or we should just accept that people identify as they identify and we should believe them.

[trotsky]

42. Speaking as one of the ones who was jumped on, yeah, would be nice to have some consistency. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

12. He said 'I doubt' not 'certainly not'

[cbayer]

14. I know very well what he said, thanks.

It's an arrogant position that can only be explained by assuming that the person taking it must be very insecure about their own beliefs or lack of beliefs.

Who has the right to say that someone is or is not what they say they are?

[AtheistCrusader]

16. It's a political reality in the United States around electability.

If Obama had said during either election effort, 'I don't believe in god', We'd have had President McCain or Romney, respectively.

And life would really, really suck.


So at the least, the fact that he says he believes, does not actually demonstrate or prove he does so. You can take it at face value if you wish. I think it's certainly *possible* he believes. But I can't tell, and I don't know.

[cbayer]

21. I don't disagree, but I believe him and think those that call him a liar

or intimate that he is a liar are out of line.

You can't tell and you don't know.

You can say you are agnostic on the issue, but that's as far as you can reasonably take it.

Me, I think he's an honest man and I think his religion is important to him.

[AlbertCat]

25. I think his religion is important to him.

That's just great!

I think he's more atheistic than you'd like. I think he knows his citizens find religion important and so he does too.

Still, this was a political speech and not a sermon. So I will look at it as politics.

[cbayer]

31. Goody, another one who thinks that Obama is lying and has the gall to speak for him.

He can be anything he wants. I would cheer if he were an atheist.

He was angry, He is religious. He involved his religious beliefs as part of his political statement.

Now, people object to that around here, unless of course the person says something like this. Then they get to invoke some kind of idea that the man is not what he says he is. Now what does one call a firmly held belief that is embraced despite evidence to the contrary? Don't know off hand?

[Warren Stupidity]

18. everyone has that right.

I doubt your official agnostic position here.

[rug]

27. I doubt your sincerity.

[AlbertCat]

24. Who has the right to say that someone is or is not what they say they are?

Oh the irony!

[cbayer]

30. OMG!! It's mr rolly eyes and the vacant irony statement again! BTW, I guess you

are not going to back up your statement about me freaking out and reporting you…

Just like you never respond to my requests that you get mr. rolly eyes to elaborate on his vacant statements.

I'm sure this gets you points somewhere, but it's becoming very tedious and less interesting all the time.

Don't you have some hidden posts you want to recommend to the greatest page? What? They don't show up on the greatest page? Oh noes!!!

[Warren Stupidity]

17. wtf. Please stop berating people for expressing their opinions on a subject.

I know you have me on ignore, but your behavior here is just endlessly atrocious. Perhaps your husband will relay the message. Please stop it.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. "There is just no god"

Fixed that for you.

[edhopper]

13. It would be nice if he called out the Saudis

for some of the same behavior and funding people like this.

[Dorian Gray]

41. I agree

100% with that.