Reza Aslan: Lying for Islam on Female Genital Mutilation

[trotsky]

http://www.buildbusiness.co.nz/heatherhastie/reza-aslan-lying-for-islam-on-fgm/

There was a window when Reza Aslan had my sympathy. At the end of July Fox News reporter Lauren Green interviewed him about his book Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth. Green’s opinion seemed to be that as a Muslim, Aslan had no right to write a book about Jesus and the whole thing was some kind of anti-Christian plot. It was bizarre and truly cringe-worthy. I was one of the many who tweeted and retweeted this interview as an example of both poor journalism and Islamophobia.

It wasn’t long before my usual opinion of Reza Aslan re-asserted itself though, which mostly arises from the starring role of Islamic apologist he has assumed. Whenever Islam is disparaged in the US media, Aslan is ready with a patronizing grin to point out why that criticism is just bigotry. It seems any correlation of belief in Islam with bad behavior by an individual Muslim is either an unsophisticated understanding of religion, a facile comparison, or simply Islamophobia. He’s entitled to his own opinion of course, but he’s not entitled to his own facts. In one of his recent forays onto TV to counter a monologue by Bill Maher he made multiple incorrect statements about female genital mutilation (FGM) and its relationship with Islam. Several of those statements have since been parroted by others with the assumption they are accurate.

...

Aslan insists that FGM is virtually unknown outside Africa. He particularly likes to use Indonesia as an example when lauding Islam. He stated, as already mentioned above, “In Indonesia, women are absolutely 100% equal to men.” Well, tell that to the estimated 140 million Indonesian women and girls, all Muslim, who have been subjected to FGM, usually before they are a year old. In Indonesia, FGM is absolutely an Islamic practice. Until Islam came to Indonesia, it was unheard of. It was introduced in the 13th century along with Islam and Muslim communities are the only ones that practice it. Indeed in some regions, the practice is carried out annually as part of the celebrations for Muhammad’s birthday. As recently as 2013 Indonesia’s top Muslim clerics, the IUC (Indonesian Ulema Council), came out in support of FGM. Although it acknowledged FGM wasn’t compulsory, it recommended it for both moral and religious reasons. The Council has also been lobbying the government to “circumcise” girls to bring it in line with Islamic teachings.

Heather Hastie is a feminist atheist who lives in New Zealand. Her entire piece is worth the read. Aslan is being naive at best, duplicitous at worst to whitewash Islam of its faults.

[still_one]

1. Ayaan Hirsii Ali

[PDJane]

2. FGM is still an African-Based Practice.

It has been practiced by animists, Jews, Christians and Muslims.....in Africa. The practice long predates Islam, and has been banned in Egypt, a predominantly Muslim country. The Al Azhar Supreme council for Islamic Research - the highest religious authority in Egypt has issued a statement explaining that FGM/C has no basis in the core Islamic Sharia or any of its partial provisions. The Islamic Federation of Scholars has decreed that FGM is un-Islamic. http://www.nccm-egypt.org/e9/e1869/e2357/e2358/infoboxContent2359/FGMintheContextofIslam.pdf

It is a custom, but not a part of Islam. That it has been associated with Islam is simply that Islam began in Africa and the middle east and, like most religions, adapted the pagan practices in the area.

Eradicating a customary practice is a tough thing to do, even when it causes as much harm as FGM does.

Yes, the practice has spread to various Islamic groups throughout the world. That still doesn't make it an Islamic practice. There are ways to eradicate it; for starters, bringing knowledgeable and educated Imams into neighbourhoods to educate parents has helped. Once the health problems are made clear, most parents do change their minds, especially when that information comes from a cleric.

[trotsky]

3. Yes, thank you for restating Reza Aslan's position.

Did you have a specific response to the author's points?

[PDJane]

5. That is a rebuttal. Although the women in Indonesia may have been subject to FGM,

It remains a fact that the practice is not an Islamic idea nor an Islamic practice.

It came with the Imam that started spreading the religion among the Islanders, one suspects, and said cleric was probably ignorant of all the tenets of the religion. That is why practice is a hard thing to fight; there will always be those who fight for the practice, and since any number of the people who follow Islam are uneducated, it becomes a matter of time and education to eradicate FGM.

However, the fact remains that the practice is not part of Sharia law, nor of the Qu'ran. Deciding that every bad idea that ever was should be Islamic is just bigotry.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Unfortunately for your position Islam is not a monolithic religion with a single authority.

So making categorical statements about islam and validating those assertions by citing some Islamic authority is pretty much bullshit. Some people who practice Islam, and their leaders, state that female circumcision is part of their faith, some don't. The practice is widespread within Islamic culture, in countries where it is prohibited and not prohibited, and its status as 'part of the faith' depends on who you ask.

[Act_of_Reparation]

9. Never mind making up a bunch of hogwash about some "ignorant cleric"

Two of the four largest schools of Sunni jurisprudence hold that both male and female circumcision is necessary, while the other two hold that both are preferred. None of them, incidentally, condemn FGM. Nor does the Qur'an, or Sharia. At least two Hadith seem to encourage it.

[PDJane]

12. It's not condemned because it is a custom, and Islam was looking for converts.

It is not an Islamic idea; it is an idea that came with custom of tribes in the area. Coming of age ordeals. It goes with the practice of removing the incisors of women so that they could not eat meat (That is still done, too.) Virginity tests that involve a cursory and unscientific visual inspection of the genitals. Neck rings, worn to elongate the neck and conform to a custom of beauty are still worn in some areas. Facial scarring. Labrets. Custom decrees that women cannot own property in their own name, aren't entitled to property on death or divorce, and are not allowed to initiate divorce. While most of these things are practiced in other areas of the world, none of them are considered to be specific to a religion.

The current thinking is that, since the foreskin in men does not involve a reproductive organ and removal of the clitoris and infibulation does, the prophet did not intend women to be mutilated. His wives were not. Since, in fact, Christians, Jews and animists have practiced this kind of mutilation, why is it considered to be a specifically Islamic practice?

The fact that Islamic scholars do condemn the practice means it will, eventually, be banned. In fact, the health costs to both women and children will eventually mean that it will fade into obscurity. It is a practice that denotes ignorance concerning reproductive issues and human rights.

[Act_of_Reparation]

13. Irrelevant

It is not an Islamic idea; it is an idea that came with custom of tribes in the area. Coming of age ordeals. It goes with the practice of removing the incisors of women so that they could not eat meat (That is still done, too.) Virginity tests that involve a cursory and unscientific visual inspection of the genitals. Neck rings, worn to elongate the neck and conform to a custom of beauty are still worn in some areas. Facial scarring. Labrets. Custom decrees that women cannot own property in their own name, aren't entitled to property on death or divorce, and are not allowed to initiate divorce. While most of these things are practiced in other areas of the world, none of them are considered to be specific to a religion.

No one is saying the practice originated with Islam, only that it is encouraged by the most popular schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

The current thinking is that, since the foreskin in men does not involve a reproductive organ and removal of the clitoris and infibulation does, the prophet did not intend women to be mutilated. His wives were not. Since, in fact, Christians, Jews and animists have practiced this kind of mutilation, why is it considered to be a specifically Islamic practice?

Again, no one saying the problem is specific to Islam. It is simply more pronounced in the Muslim world, and, dissimilar to Christianity and Judaism, the practice is supported in mainstream religious movements.

The fact that Islamic scholars do condemn the practice means it will, eventually, be banned.

This is easily the most nonsensical thing I've read all day. Bear in mind at least one minute of my time was spent reading a Rick Warren tweet.

In fact, the health costs to both women and children will eventually mean that it will fade into obscurity.

The health costs are greater now than they were thirteen hundred years ago? That's news to me.

It is a practice that denotes ignorance concerning reproductive issues and human rights.

A religious practice? Ignorant concerning reproductive issues and human rights? How unusual.

[PDJane]

14. That's a really idiotic stance.

You want to lay the whole thing at the feet of the Prophet, and that's just nonsense. No, it's not necessarily more prevalent because of Islam. It is more prevalent because women are still fighting for rights. It is more prevalent because it is a secretive practice; Islam doesn't encourage conversation about sexual practices, especially where it concerns women and their bodies. Of course, part of the problem is that autocratic régimes tend to suppress the truth. refusing to even collect information. (That's not confined to Islamist states, either. I present the fact that our Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, has destroyed libraries of information on climate change and environmental destruction.)

The belief that FGM is a religious practice is rooted in ignorance, both in Islam and in the wider world.

And yes, the cost of FGM is higher than it used to be, for the simple reason that it has spread further with the increase in population. If you don't give a woman rights, then her fertility is not under her control. That causes one hell of a cost to modern medicine, along with the women who suffer from the tearing, infection, miscarriage, and re-infibulation after childbirth. However, laying that at the feet of Islam is like laying the whole mass of things that have been done in the name of God at the feet of Christianity. You know, things like fgm, pedophilia, misogyny, residential schools, making Mother Teresa into a saint, the Magdalene laundries, dead babies buried in sewers....and on and on. Or, of course, laying the Zionists' atrocities at the feet of Judaism...along with the killing of Christ, blah, blah, blah. What about foot binding?

All of these things are customs, and can be cured or fixed. But they take time, concerted effort, and education.

We need to educate girls, give young women a start. Why women? Because the fastest way to improve the quality of life, to control population growth, and to elevate the rights of the child is to educate women.

Yes, I fully believe that the costs, both monetary and physical, of FGM means that it will be mostly eradicated. However, the way to increase the speed of that change is education of both women and the religious hierarchy.

[Act_of_Reparation]

15. Perhaps it would be, if that was what I actually said.

But that's okay. I get it. Reading is hard.

Especially when the point is spelled out in three simple sentences.

You want to lay the whole thing at the feet of the Prophet, and that's just nonsense.

Maybe you missed where I said this:

No one is saying the practice originated with Islam, only that it is encouraged by the most popular schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

And this:

Again, no one saying the problem is specific to Islam. It is simply more pronounced in the Muslim world, and, dissimilar to Christianity and Judaism, the practice is supported in mainstream religious movements.

Careful, now. One may get the impression that you're not arguing in good faith.

The belief that FGM is a religious practice is rooted in ignorance, both in Islam and in the wider world.

You might want to get UNICEF on the phone, then. Looks like they made a mistake.

And yes, the cost of FGM is higher than it used to be, for the simple reason that it has spread further with the increase in population.

Let me get this straight: you think the costs incurred by hack-job butchery involved in FGM are greater now, in the age of penicillin, than they were thirteen hundred years ago? Just because there are more people?

As risky as the procedure is today, I would have to imagine the risk of serious injury or death was even greater before aseptic technique was even a thing. But that's only in places wealthy enough to have modern medical infrastructures. In many of these countries, the risks are very much the same as they always have been, and that hasn't deterred them yet.

However, laying that at the feet of Islam is like laying the whole mass of things that have been done in the name of God at the feet of Christianity. You know, things like fgm, pedophilia, misogyny, residential schools, making Mother Teresa into a saint, the Magdalene laundries, dead babies buried in sewers....and on and on. Or, of course, laying the Zionists' atrocities at the feet of Judaism...along with the killing of Christ, blah, blah, blah. What about foot binding?

Right. You've made your point: none of the bad things done in the name of a particular religion can be attributed to that religion.

And you call my position idiotic...

All of these things are customs, and can be cured or fixed. But they take time, concerted effort, and education.

We need to educate girls, give young women a start. Why women? Because the fastest way to improve the quality of life, to control population growth, and to elevate the rights of the child is to educate women.

Yes, I fully believe that the costs, both monetary and physical, of FGM means that it will be mostly eradicated. However, the way to increase the speed of that change is education of both women and the religious hierarchy.

You know, it's funny. If you bring up the relationship between Islam and FGM, you're accused of "painting with a broad brush". If, on the other hand, your solution to a problem spanning almost thirty nations and, undoubtedly, hundreds of individual cultural-linguistic groups is "educate women", you're a social justice warrior.

Sorry, but no.

In terms of prevalence of FGM, Egypt comes in fourth place worldwide, with 91% of its women and girls having been cut. You think Egyptian women aren't well-educated? You think the risks of this procedure incur too many costs to sustain the practice? Perhaps not, when 77% of these procedures are performed by medical professionals.

In Somalia (98%) Guinea (96%) and Djibouti (93%), education is practically non-existent for both boys and girls. Neither do they have much of a healthcare system. No doctors means no medical bills.

Public opinion within these countries is sometimes sharply, and surprisingly divided. Keynan women tend to think the practice is useless, while Guinean men are more strongly opposed to FGM than are women. To add even more complexity, these divisions continue down to the ethnic/linguistic/tribal level, with, for example, 41% of Voltaique/Gur Ivorian women supporting the practice to a scant 3% of Akan women.

But shit, what do I know? I'm the idiotic one, after all.

[PDJane]

16. Egypt has banned the practice, and has given statistics about when the practice will disappear.

And yes, the custom will continue, even if it has been banned, as long as people have the idea that it is necessary.

Women are, in general, the ones who have been having their female children cut. Their reasons are social; it has nothing to do with the laws of Islam. They are afraid of the stigma of their children not have been cut, afraid they may not be able to marry, afraid that their children will not be physically beautiful to a husband, and so on. The fastest way to fix that is education, and education of women (and yes, clerics. The clerics here have helped to keep people from sending their children back to Africa to be cut.). Public opinion can be changed. That is easier in the west, as everything is easier in the west; the communications infrastructure isn't there for the easy spread of propaganda.

I realize that African countries are not educating their children, either boys or girls. However, the best way to fix that particular problem is to educate girls, specifically. The lack of education, by the way, has to do with the West. We have been stealing resources from Africa and giving nothing back for centuries, and the speed of that theft has increased with our ability to get there. The first resources taken were people. Slavery interrupted African history, and the damage continues.

As a digression, the dominant religion in the places mentioned is an interesting collection. Djibouti is Islamic. Somalia is predominantly Islamic, with enclaves of Christian and traditional religions. Due to a historical oddity, it is possible that Islam took root there earlier than it did in its birthplace. Guinea was mainly animist; it is only recently that Islam has taken hold, and it remains about 50% animist. And, by the way, this thread has specifically stated that the practice is an Islamic practice. Moreover, I didn't state that we shouldn't be educating boys, just that girls should have been educated as well, preferably first. It would have made the process of education much easier, and would improve the standard of living quickly.

Stating that medical costs are non-existent because they don't have any infrastructure is not correct either; what medical systems they do have are strained, and getting to the few places where there is medical attention often means travel. Young women die through severe bleeding leading to haemorrhagic shock, neurogenic shock as a result of pain and trauma, and overwhelming infection and septicaemia. Women may experience chronic pain, chronic pelvic infections, development of cysts, abscesses and genital ulcers, excessive scar tissue formation, infection of the reproductive system, infertility, decreased sexual enjoyment and psychological consequences, such as post-traumatic stress disorder. All of these difficulties are doubled as they are re-infibulated.

The costs are there, whether the medical system is well-developed or not. Education is necessary, and not male-first education. Women tend to do most of the work in most of the world; that's not meant as anything but an observation; they don't own the fruit of their labour, but they do a great majority of it. Training and education means that they do what they have to do more efficiently.

The long history of FGM testifies to the general ability of humankind to ignore the adverse effects of actions on women, in particular, and the persistence of ignorance and outright sadism.

Reading various religious texts has convinced me of a couple of things. One of those things is that religion, while preaching saintliness, is most often used for ill; it's a fine force for control, an excuse for bigotry, and a way to shame people for even those things that they have no reason to be ashamed of.

[nesamenis]

19. Come again?

"The belief that FGM is a religious practice is rooted in ignorance, both in Islam and in the wider world."

Where in the wider world is it practiced? Among Eskimos? In Vladivostok? In Japan? If we look at Muslim minority countries in Southeast Asia, such as Thailand, it is practiced *only* in Muslim communities.

97% of Indonesian females undergo FGM--the most populous Muslim country.

You say it's not an Islamic problem, yet among those countries in Africa where it is most prevalent, all but one is a Muslim majority state. And the state that isn't (Eritrea), is roughly half Muslim. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/05/research-finds-200m-victims-female-genital-mutilation-alive-today

Regardless of its origins, it is most prevalent and most resolutely defended on the basis of scripture in Muslim majority states.

Your apology fools no informed and critical thinker.

[PDJane]

20. Gods, you lot are condescending.

The practice, one more time, is not tied to Islam, nor has it ever been. It is a custom, a coming of age practice, and it originated with the animists in Africa.

The Supreme Islamic Council has banned the practice, and declared it un-Islamic. From the WHO website: The practice is most common in the western, eastern, and north-eastern regions of Africa, in some countries the Middle East and Asia, as well as among migrants from these areas. FGM is therefore a global concern.

Young women in England and in all other western countries can be flown home for the procedure. In Canada, immigrants wanted the operation done in local hospitals. We had, at one point in Toronto, Imams going from school to house, explaining the reasons that the practice was un-Islamic and dangerous for women.

It has been practiced by Jews, by Christians and by Muslims in Africa. That doesn't mean it was a religious practice.

It is dangerous as hell, yes. It costs a lot in terms of human life; little girls and young women die every year from the practice, from blood loss, from infection, from trauma......and it costs in terms of human fertility.

I remember why I stopped coming here. Do the research; it isn't Islam that is behind the practice. They are trying to eradicate it. Even the prophet did not endorse the practice.

[okasha]

6. Thanks for providing facts that counter this disinformation.

Stopping FGM means grappling with its true provenance and as noted, conducting vigorous community education.

[trotsky]

10. That's a unique spin, okasha.

"Facts" to counter this "disinformation"?

You should take it up with Ms. Hastie. Also, be aware of this fact:

In Indonesia, FGM is absolutely an Islamic practice. Until Islam came to Indonesia, it was unheard of. It was introduced in the 13th century along with Islam and Muslim communities are the only ones that practice it.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. "It seems any correlation of belief in Islam with bad behavior by an individual Muslim"

It seems any correlation of belief in Islam with bad behavior by an individual Muslim is either an unsophisticated understanding of religion, a facile comparison, or simply Islamophobia.

Gosh that seems so familiar to me, where oh where have I heard similar arguments made about just about every religion on the planet, except of course the ones on the official mock list?

[mr blur]

7. Strange how that doesn't work when talking about atheists, isn't it?

One atheist says something dumb and insensitive and, woah, all atheists are sexist pigs (except the female ones, of course).

[edhopper]

11. It's never about religion

seems to be the meme here, dontchaknow.

[PDJane]

17. It's not, specifically, about religion.

It's about the fact that people are gullible enough to believe that religion has all the answers, and that God will give them to His people through His intermediaries. (I personally think that indoctrination in a religion gives people the ability to believe six impossible things before breakfast.)

Judaism talks a lot about how they were forbidden to worship and their holy places desecrated, all the while ensuring that Palestinians suffer for their worship at Al Aqsa.

Christianity tells people to love thy neighbour as thyself.....unless, of course, they commit adultery, are gay or lesbian, have children out of wedlock.......or whatever the excuse du jour is.

Islam preaches peace and adherence to the law and the value of education....at one time, anyone could enter the mosque and be taught there, and we still use the system of numerals invented to replace Roman numerals. And yes, that meant male or female could be educated.

Religions are a written code of behaviour. It's the fact that a human intermediary is apparently necessary that tends to distort the message.

[edhopper]

18. that still

says Aslan is wrong to say Islam is not part of this.

It doesn't matter if his version doesn't hold to it, others do.