St. Teresa of Avila

[struggle4progress]

Christ has no body but yours: no hands, no feet on earth but yours.
Yours are the eyes with which he looks with compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which he blesses all the world.
Yours are the hands. Yours are the feet.
Yours are the eyes. You are his body.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

[edhopper]

1. Christ has no body

Because he died 2000 years ago and is gone.
People's feet and hands and eyes are their own, with no supernatural entity to effect them.

[hrmjustin]

2. Amen!

Just beautiful!

[bvf]

3. *ahem*

Last edited Wed Nov 26, 2014, 05:36 AM - Edit history (1)

"Christ has no body but yours: no hands, no feet on earth but yours."

That's because he's dead, if he ever existed at all. Either way, he's still dead.

"Yours are the eyes with which he looks with compassion on this world."

Kindly ignore the homophobia and misogyny which are two hallmarks of his earthly institution.

"Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good."

You can't walk on water with them, so don't try.

"Yours are the hands with which he blesses all the world."

Provided they're not already occupied, outspread, taking donations.

"Yours are the hands. Yours are the feet. 
Yours are the eyes. You are his body. 
Christ has no body now on earth but yours."

So think twice before donating your body to science.

Read Saints Preserve Us! (1993) for a brief but entertaining account of Teresa of Avila's life. She had visions of hell, heard voices, and for some reason became the go-to saint if you have a headache.

[struggle4progress]

5. "But we preach Christ crucified, a scandal to some and a folly to others"

It is, of course, entirely possible that Teresa was crazy -- but in my view, the mere fact that someone might be crazy doesn't mean I should ignore everything that person says

[bvf]

7. "Crazy"?

Certainly not a term I'd use in this context.

I'd regard visions of hell and hearing voices as signs of mental illness, but frankly, that's not my field.

[No Vested Interest]

4. Beautiful reminder. Thank you. nt

[Cartoonist]

6. OK, this is the religious group

So I only have myself to blame for clicking on the link, but I usually expect discussion, not holy pap.

In order to avoid any misunderstanding:

Definition of PAP
1: a soft food for infants or invalids
2: political patronage
3: something lacking solid value or substance

I choose (3) for literalism and (1) for figurative

[bvf]

8. There's no DU group dedicated

explicitly to smarmy, touchie-feelie platitudes courtesy of hell-vision-inspired, voice-hearing individuals centuries dead, so this will have to suffice.

Personally, I wandered in here hoping to learn something about Teresa of Avila.

Perhaps a Pap group is called for?

[struggle4progress]

9. Perhaps you might find Søren Kierkegaard more to your tastes

"If it were true -- as conceited shrewdness, proud of not being deceived, thinks -- that one should believe nothing which cannot be seen with physical eyes, then first and foremost one ought to abandon any belief in love"

[bvf]

10. I prefer this.

Christianity was from the beginning, essentially and fundamentally, life's nausea and disgust with life, merely concealed behind, masked by, dressed up as, faith in "another" or "better" life.

from Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy, p.23, Walter Kaufmann 

[cbayer]

11. Happy thanksgiving, bvf!

I hope that you can find a few moments of joy and happiness squished in between the nausea and disgust that seems to so permeate your existence.

-- meant in only the most sincere of ways and not in any way sarcastic.

[bvf]

13. Still chafing over the whole drubbing you took

over your statement that some people consider you homeless, eh?

Threaten to put me on ignore again. That's always good for a laugh.

[cbayer]

14. Drubbing? What drubbing? Perhaps you meant drooling?

If I can amuse you, just let me know. Tu feliz es mi feliz!

[bvf]

15. Drubbing. Here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218165443#post26

[cbayer]

19. Enough of that drumming! I see nothing. Hope you had a great day!

[bvf]

24. "I see nothing." - cbayer

Everyone already knows this.

[cbayer]

28. EVERYONE already knows? OMG. Do they also know about the hearing?

I try not to complain but If everyone already knows, then I'm just going to have to stop being a martyr.

"It wasn’t always easy for me; I was born a poor black child".

The Jerk

[bvf]

31. "...I'm just going to have to stop being a martyr."

It's pretty common knowledge that you profess to feeling attacked, so that statement is already CW.

[cbayer]

32. Pretty common knowledge that I PROFESS to feeling attacked.

Well, golly gee. Somebody call the men in white suits, because if that's the case, I must be full on delusional. I'm using that word right, aren't I?

No one would attack me. Why would they?

What's CW?

[Cartoonist]

16. Gad

that one should believe nothing which cannot be seen with physical eyes
-
I can't see gravity either, but I don't go jumping off cliffs.

There's a Catholicism group that would just LOVE you.

[rug]

17. We do admire erudite posts.

We do not admire stupid posts.

[bvf]

18. Didn't you know

that gravity is god's will?

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4387942

What a recipe for a generation of morons.

Assume there are some who believe this.

Further assume there are those among that group who believe that "god loves them."

Why don't you see them jumping off cliffs to try to fly with the justification that god will protect them?

Because they are also taught not to test "god's will."

Do that and god will fuck you up, big time.

[cbayer]

21. True story. I was once in a theater in Chicago seeing Yellow Submarine

after it was first released.

Some guy on acid tried to fly off the balcony. He yelled, "I'm coming John", then dove right into the seats below.

It was very traumatic.

Acid can really fuck you up big time. It's almost as bad as religion.

[bvf]

22. What an amusing anecdote. n/t.

[cbayer]

23. Thanks! I sat with some Canadians today who told some great jokes if you are interested.

[bvf]

25. No.

[cbayer]

29. Aw, c'mon. They were hilarious.

A little off color, but only by Canadian standards.

What did you have for supper?

Another true story. I made some killer gravy from scratch over the last two days. I went to this big pot luck and I figured all the food would be served cold.

So, I have this brilliant idea to make gravy and bring my fondue pot and some sterno. I figured they would probably carry me around the room on their shoulders, that is how brilliant my idea was.

When I get there, I ask where I can set it up and they inform me that they have 60 gallons of gravy. 60!

And the worst part is that mine leaked into the rolling grocery bag I took it in and made a terrible mess.

That was a real, "Wow, just, wow" moment.

When I got back to the yacht, I finally broke down into tears. Thank god that one of the servants was here to wipe my eyes and fix me some caviar. I don't know what I would do without them.

[cbayer]

20. You stay away from those cliffs now! Hope you had a great Thanksgiviing

full of food and friends and fondness.

The member is not a Catholic, btw, so I'm not sure why you would refer him to the catholicism group.

[Cartoonist]

26. Her love of St Teresa is why

I can't remember if I took acid when I saw Yellow Submarine. It was at that time in my life. I am glad for all the trips I took, it really does change your mind. Unfortunately for some, it changes it in a bad way. I was lucky.

[cbayer]

30. I wear a St. Christopher medal and I'm not catholic.

A dear member of my extended family made it for me. I wear it because we move around a lot and I figure it doesn't hurt. Plus it's cool. St Christopher is holding a surf board on it.

Glad you didn't go jumping off any balconies.

[Lordquinton]

35. but love can be seen now.

God, however, remains distinctly unseen.

[cbayer]

38. How can love be seen? You made this claim previously, were challenged

to provide evidence of this by more than just me, and never responded.

Are you going to respond this time?

[Lordquinton]

39. oxyticin

The love chemical. So we can measure love.

[cbayer]

40. First off, it's spelled oxytocin.

Secondly, oxytocin is the hormone released in huge amounts during delivery of a baby. Take my word for it, love is pretty much the last thing on your mind at that time.

While there is evidence that oxytocin plays a role in human emotions, including sexual attraction. There is no data that correlated "love" with oxytocin. None. It is an incredibly complex hormone and if you think you can measure it and correlate it to love, you really don't understand endocrinology at all.

Interestingly, Oxytocin has also been found to play a role in religious beleifs.

Oops!!!

[Lordquinton]

41. yes it is released at childbirth as well

And you are claiming that when a mother sees her child for the first time love is the last thing on her mind?

You are claiming a negative, if the level of discourse around here has been kept up by you believers, then I would counter your claim, instead I ask you to prove there is no data correlating love and oxytocin.

[cbayer]

42. Oxytocin is massively released during the delivery and is not correlated with the rush

of love a mother feels after the birth.

What negative am I claiming? Only thing I am claiming is that you made an statement that has no basis in actual data. As a rational, reasonable thinker who uses logic and science to reach your conclusion, you really need to have data to back up your claims.

I'm not a believer. I know you want me to be because that could justify some of your animosity, but I'm not.

Instead of proving the data that discounts your unsubstantiated claim, I will give you an article that links oxytocin and religiosity. You have to prove your own point. I only have to prove mine.

http://iaincarstairs.wordpress.com/2011/11/26/the-biochemistry-of-spirituality-and-brain-hygiene-generosity/

[Lordquinton]

43. so you can't back up your claim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_basis_of_love

Wow, oxytocin is listed all over that article aboutvthe chemistry of love, still claim there is no link? Or are you going to deny you read the words in front of your eyes like believers usually do?

[cbayer]

47. You are very confused at this point. You made the claim. I challenged it.

Last edited Fri Nov 28, 2014, 08:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Oxytocin is also listed all over the place in articles about spirituality and religious belief. Your wiki article does not support your claim in the least.

You made the claim that levels of oxytocin could be correlated with degree of love, which is not true. You also made the claim that there was no such correlation for religion, while I have shown your clearly that there is about as much evidence for one as the other.

You didn't say a link. You made a definitive statement without any basis in science. At least you tried to defend it this time, and that I congratulate.

BTW, when a woman in labor is not progressing, she is often given oxytocin. Do you think the goal is to increase her level of love or religiosity, lol?

You have lost this one, Lord.

Let me ask you something. With your continual claims that I am a believer, what exactly do you think you accomplish? Are you calling me a liar?

[Lordquinton]

49. no, you said there was no study showing a link

Which is patently false. I never challenged your comment about faith and oxytocin. Let me amend my origonal statement: oxytocin is one of many chemicals involved in the biological process we call "love"

[cbayer]

50. Your amended statement is just fine. I agree and accept it.

[Lordquinton]

51. do you retract yours?

"There is no data that correlated "love" with oxytocin. None."

[cbayer]

52. No, there is no correlation.

Things are correlated when two variables have a statistically significant dependence on each other. It means that there is a relationship that when one of those things change, the other thing changes as well.

To say that these two things, love and oxytocin, are correlated would meant that there was a measurable and statistically significant relationship between the two.

There isn't.

All there is is some vague data that indicates that oxytocin is somehow involved in the feeling of love. It's not measurable or statistically significant… at least not at this time.

So I endorse your revised statement that oxytocin is one of many chemicals involved in the biological process we call "love".

[okasha]

53. I've heard more than one woman in labor

scream "I hate that bastard! I'm gonna kill him!"

Oxytocin induces labor, not love.

[cbayer]

54. I was one of those. Screaming at my husband and begging

for an anesthesiologist.

The literature does indicate that oxytocin is involved in so many things. It comes from the deepest recesses of the most primitive parts of the brain, so it's not surprising that it's involved in lots of things, including religiosity….. and love.

Hope you are having a great weekend.

[okasha]

55. It's not just humans, either.

I once saw a mother cat jump out of her basket in the middle of delivering her kittens, charge halfway across the house to attack the father of her children, and leave him with his face scratched bloody.

It's been a restful week, but busy. I have to finish two paintings by mid-Dec.and have made significant progress on both. Also helped load and fire the glaze kiln.

My sympathies about the gravy. My niece attempted to make a sugar free pecan pie for her newly-diagnosed diabetic husband, and the result was a horror beyond belief.

[cbayer]

56. Lol, love the cat story.

Sounds like you are being very productive.

Sugar free pecan pie? Well, I've never heard of that. It usually requires molasses, so it's probably not the best choice for sugar free.

I'm eating some arrachara tonight with is perfect. I'm in a place with TV, which is a great treat. Watching the stupidest stuff I can find.

[okasha]

57. The pie has already become family legend.

She used Splenda and some sort of sugar-free syrup--gruesome.

I'm reading Faye Kellerman's new mystery, enjoying it thoroughly.

[cbayer]

58. I think I have heard before that Splenda is just no good for baking.

Enjoy your book.

[rug]

44. I see love!

[cbayer]

45. You see labor!!! I thought you stopped with the hallucinogens?

[rug]

46. I never took any. I was afraid I'd never come back.

[cbayer]

48. I feel the same. I never did see love.

[Lordquinton]

34. not true, there is a prayer group

So prayers posted here are well open for discussion.

[bvf]

36. Prayers. Noted. n/t.

[cbayer]

12. Holy Pap, batman! You forgot one of the most common definitions!

Hope that you had something other that pap for thanksgiving, cartoonist, and that you were surrounded by white light.

[840high]

27. Amen.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. As per usual, the implication is that my life, and my body, are not mine at all.

Disgusting.

[Jim__]

37. The Prelude to "Middlemarch."

Who that cares much to know the history of man, and how the mysterious mixture behaves under the varying experiments of Time, has not dwelt, at least briefly, on the life of Saint Theresa, has not smiled with some gentleness at the thought of the little girl walking forth one morning hand-in-hand with her still smaller brother, to go and seek martyrdom in the country of the Moors? Out they toddled from rugged Avila, wide-eyed and helpless-looking as two fawns, but with human hearts, already beating to a national idea; until domestic reality met them in the shape of uncles, and turned them back from their great resolve. That child-pilgrimage was a fit beginning. Theresa's passionate, ideal nature demanded an epic life: what were many-volumed romances of chivalry and the social conquests of a brilliant girl to her? Her flame quickly burned up that light fuel; and, fed from within, soared after some illimitable satisfaction, some object which would never justify weariness, which would reconcile self-despair with the rapturous consciousness of life beyond self. She found her epos in the reform of a religious order.

That Spanish woman who lived three hundred years ago, was certainly not the last of her kind. Many Theresas have been born who found for themselves no epic life wherein there was a constant unfolding of far-resonant action; perhaps only a life of mistakes, the offspring of a certain spiritual grandeur ill-matched with the meanness of opportunity; perhaps a tragic failure which found no sacred poet and sank unwept into oblivion. With dim lights and tangled circumstance they tried to shape their thought and deed in noble agreement; but after all, to common eyes their struggles seemed mere inconsistency and formlessness; for these later-born Theresas were helped by no coherent social faith and order which could perform the function of knowledge for the ardently willing soul. Their ardor alternated between a vague ideal and the common yearning of womanhood; so that the one was disapproved as extravagance, and the other condemned as a lapse.

Some have felt that these blundering lives are due to the inconvenient indefiniteness with which the Supreme Power has fashioned the natures of women: if there were one level of feminine incompetence as strict as the ability to count three and no more, the social lot of women might be treated with scientific certitude. Meanwhile the indefiniteness remains, and the limits of variation are really much wider than any one would imagine from the sameness of women's coiffure and the favorite love-stories in prose and verse. Here and there a cygnet is reared uneasily among the ducklings in the brown pond, and never finds the living stream in fellowship with its own oary-footed kind. Here and there is born a Saint Theresa, foundress of nothing, whose loving heart-beats and sobs after an unattained goodness tremble off and are dispersed among hindrances, instead of centring in some long-recognizable deed.